Don't Hate on Engineers

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July 21st, 2017
Bmille3

Don't Hate on Engineers

This may seem pointless to you guys, but I need to get this off my chest. And no, I do not have an engineered account in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

Engineers recieve hate. Everyone agree? I mean, I see it on nearly a daily basis on this forum. People giving engineers a bad time. People who support it? Instant downvote. It's crazy to me, why some choose to hate on people who haven't done anything wrong. They have not broke the rules.

Please, do not hate on engineers. What they do is annoying, sure. It may even be cheap or unfair. But don't give them a hard time for it. They are simply doing the best option available. It's not there fault it's still possible. SC has let it go for years, despite constant complaints.

Disagree? Please state why. Also, please realize, I'm not supporting engineering at all, I'm simply saying, why is it there fault if the option is out there and nothing has been done to fix it?
July 21st, 2017
Neminoppan

I think that if engineers met only other engineers in war, while other clans didn't have to, you wouldn't see as much anger. Just my thought
July 21st, 2017
Stevejnr

But it seems plans are in the works to do something about it, Darian posted in a thread in the Clan Wars section yesterday that there will be something announced in a few days. So we may see the complaining shoes being worn by the engineering camp fairly soon, rather than the anti engineering camp.

Will have to make sure I have ample supplies to sit and watch it all unfold on the forum when the sticky does appear :)
July 21st, 2017
Andvareel

Engineers = easy loot. Thank you engineers.
July 21st, 2017
strandwolfza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevejnr

But it seems plans are in the works to do something about it, Darian posted in a thread in the Clan Wars section yesterday that there will be something announced in a few days. So we may see the complaining shoes being worn by the engineering camp fairly soon, rather than the anti engineering camp.

Will have to make sure I have ample supplies to sit and watch it all unfold on the forum when the sticky does appear :)

maybe, but actions speak louder than words and what has supercell done about this until now?

@op
I think they deserve every hate they get, sorry
July 21st, 2017
bhavyamamgain

I think more than hating engineers, people ( including me ) hates the fact that they are forced to play engineers in wars more often these days when they don't have any chance of beating them.
Also they aren't breaking any rules but surely are taking advantages of the MM loopholes.
Keep them away from non engineered clans and no one will even bother about them.
July 21st, 2017
Reevil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmille3

Disagree? Please state why. Also, please realize, I'm not supporting engineering at all, I'm simply saying, why is it there fault if the option is out there and nothing has been done to fix it?

I hate engineered clans, I don't care if the clan has 2 or 3 of such bases.
I am a Th10 and the reason I don't like to war against such clan is I hate attacking those defenseless bases in war its no fun in attacking such base.
July 21st, 2017
Lady Maverick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmille3

Engineers recieve hate. Everyone agree? I mean, I see it on nearly a daily basis on this forum. People giving engineers a bad time. People who support it? Instant downvote. It's crazy to me, why some choose to hate on people who haven't done anything wrong. They have not broke the rules.

Appreciate Your words..
People Often complain about Engineered bases and as u said hate them ONLY on the basis of war..

The Reason they hate--
1-Nobody skips the bases in multiplayer by clicking next Because a th9 can easily take down th9.5/9.75 which offers massive loot.
2- WAR-- they think they can 2*/3* easily top bases,but they dont realize its easy to 3* them as well...
3- Every Multiplayer defense a Eng base face in Multiplayer, They always lose a bunch of resources(nobody leaves a penny behind)
4- They hate us Because Engg people struggle hard to farm, with lots of patience and skill in making bases trying to save some resources(if possible)
5- A strategical game needs a Strategy and Engg people follow it.. Its not cheap or unfair.
Its a kind of strategy which a winners think.(Even a Strongest Lion tries to hunt a baby calf rather than going for a huge Bison)
6- Engineered people only have advantage in war, Apart from that.?( This is why u hate)
i can pen down a lot more...
But all i Want To Tell You is... Everything Is FAIR in LOVE and WAR...
July 21st, 2017
Bmille3

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

maybe, but actions speak louder than words and what has supercell done about this until now?

@op
I think they deserve every hate they get, sorry

Why? They aren't breaking the rules. I realize it's annoying, but shouldn't the hate be on SC for not fixing it by now?
July 21st, 2017
WormShoes

Time is the greatest healer

So with engineered clans I can honestly say we probably see them 1:30 wars, and that's probably being understated AND we war back2back.

Sure when we face an engineered clan we do get thumped, but there's been a couple of occasions where we've only lost to damage %.

But this is how I see it:-

Engineered clans are like fashion, and like fashion after time they will become completely obsolete. Sure they are having their fun now smashing their way through clans riddled with TH8's and TH9's but soon they will hit a massive brick wall.

And when they do hit that brick wall they will look at their account and say "wow I've just spent £XXXX and XXXXtime engineering my base that has now become nothing more than a rushed mess"

I don't share the hate others do for these players, don't get me wrong it does frustrates me a little being matched to engineered clans, but deep down I know after time these accounts will be rendered useless.
July 21st, 2017
Bmille3

Quote:

Originally Posted by WormShoes

So with engineered clans I can honestly say we probably see them 1:30 wars, and that's probably being understated AND we war back2back.

Sure when we face an engineered clan we do get thumped, but there's been a couple of occasions where we've only lost to damage %.

But this is how I see it:-

Engineered clans are like fashion, and like fashion after time they will become completely obsolete. Sure they are having their fun now smashing their way through clans riddled with TH8's and TH9's but soon they will hit a massive brick wall.

And when they do hit that brick wall they will look at their account and say "wow I've just spent £XXXX and XXXXtime engineering my base that has now become nothing more than a rushed mess"

I don't share the hate others do for these players, don't get me wrong it does frustrates me a little being matched to engineered clans, but deep down I know after time these accounts will be rendered useless.

The only way they will hit a wall is if SC tweaks the war MM. Do you see that happening?
July 21st, 2017
Lady Maverick

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

@op
I think they deserve every hate they get, sorry

So people need strategy to do Farm raids, Base Builds, Strategy to Upgrade troops and defensive structure(what to upgrade 1st /next)
so if they find a strategy to win wars, Hate them eh.?
July 21st, 2017
21Kentucky

Thanks Braxton. It's no different than people rushing to bh6 in the builder hall. There was a thread yesterday where someone complained about having to always face 6's as a 5 and the majority basically laughed at him. What makes it ok to game the system on the BH but not the TH? It's a double standard by the non engineer crowd.
July 21st, 2017
Chang405

I engineer and I don't care if people hate me for it. The opinions of strangers on the internet just doesn't have much of an effect on me.
July 21st, 2017
Bmille3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chang405

I engineer and I don't care if people hate me for it. The opinions of strangers on the internet just doesn't have much of an effect on me.

Good, unfortunatley that isn't the case with everyone.
July 21st, 2017
bhavyamamgain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooh26

So people need strategy to do Farm raids, Base Builds, Strategy to Upgrade troops and defensive structure(what to upgrade 1st /next)
so if they find a strategy to win wars, Hate them eh.?

Engineering is not a "strategy". That is a deliberate attempt to take advantage of war MM loopholes. They might have their own reasons to do it and no one is saying that is against the rule. But you get hate when you do something which is not desirable and the ones who never took advantage of any loophole suffers almost daily because of you.
July 21st, 2017
Tomville

I disagree, I don't think everyone is hating on engineers. Most of our more careful and respected voices are very clear on "blame the system, not the person". I think though there a natural tendency at work where engineers are blamed or shamed, in that many fresh engineering threads are started by people fresh from losing a war in what they perceive to be (and sometimes is) a mismatch/unfair. Also quite a number of these voices are ones that haven't spent much time on the forum, so haven't learned some of the better ways you can see and interpret the situation. After all there's rather a difference between someone who has actually heard about and thought about, say, the extent to which min/maxing ought be encouraged/discouraged in gaming etc and someone who only knows their th9 just got beaten up by some weird base with one cannon and a big warden. Those two perspectives are likely to describe the person who engineers in rather different terms, and distinguish between the person and the features of the system that's created room for that.
July 21st, 2017
Stevejnr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooh26

Appreciate Your words..
People Often complain about Engineered bases and as u said hate them ONLY on the basis of war..

The Reason they hate--
1-Nobody skips the bases in multiplayer by clicking next Because a th9 can easily take down th9.5/9.75 which offers massive loot. It's your choice to build it that way
2- WAR-- they think they can 2*/3* easily top bases,but they dont realize its easy to 3* them as well.. So you can win 4-6 stars but only lose 3...
3- Every Multiplayer defense a Eng base face in Multiplayer, They always lose a bunch of resources(nobody leaves a penny behind) same as point 1
4- They hate us Because Engg people struggle hard to farm, with lots of patience and skill in making bases trying to save some resources(if possible) same as point 1 again
5- A strategical game needs a Strategy and Engg people follow it.. Its not cheap or unfair. it's always cheaper to not build defences, and being unfair or not is subjective
Its a kind of strategy which a winners think.(Even a Strongest Lion tries to hunt a baby calf rather than going for a huge Bison)
6- Engineered people only have advantage in war, Apart from that.?( This is why u hate) They only need one reason to hate it, you only built it for one reason, But there are more reasons that people 'hate' engineering.
i can pen down a lot more... You haven't exactly pinned down a lot of different reasons so far
But all i Want To Tell You is... Everything Is FAIR in LOVE and WAR...

Responses in bold.
The biggest problem with engineered bases is they hide amongst the bases that all get 3 starred by the surrounding bases anyway with attacks to spare, so they have not cost anything to the clan with the engineered bases. They then attack higher up the order for 3 stars at the levels where 3 stars are not guaranteed, giving the clan with the engineered bases an unfair (in my subjective opinion) attacking advantage higher up where the deciding stars are won or lost.
July 21st, 2017
Tomville

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooh26

Its a kind of strategy which a winners think.(Even a Strongest Lion tries to hunt a baby calf rather than going for a huge Bison)... Everything Is FAIR in LOVE and WAR...

Well one reason is right here, in a difference of perspective. What your example shows is a predator - an animal in whose interest it is to prey on the softest and weakest target it can find. That works very well if you need survive in the wild, and animal world "winners" are creatures that do well at that, get the meal for the least output of energy and personal risk. And some see war in the game that way. Others come at it with a different perspective, seeing war in the game as more like a sport, where sportsmanship matters and the true "winners" are those who can show they are the best of the best at beating equal size and strength competitors, or go down bravely trying on the day. On that perspective it would be cheap and hollow to count a victory against a far weaker opponent as significant. So that's one key place where minds don't meet, in my view.
July 21st, 2017
Lady Maverick

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavyamamgain

But you get hate when you do something which is not desirable.

Well,,, This game can be played however A PLAYER wants to play.. That's why you see rushed bases,, a base which is maxed before going to next town hall, and then there is engineers...
And you are telling here that people should play according to what others like,,, but not according to what he/she likes!?
If I would have been asked to do something what others like and not something what I would like to do... Then it's better not to do it all..

And lastly,,,

People hate when someone is doing either better or worse.... I'm pretty damn sure... Engineers aren't doing worse...
July 21st, 2017
Lady Maverick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomville

Well one reason is right here, in a difference of perspective. What your example shows is a predator - an animal in whose interest it is to prey on the softest and weakest target it can find. That works very well if you need survive in the wild, and animal world "winners" are creatures that do well at that, get the meal for the least output of energy and personal risk. And some see war in the game that way. Others come at it with a different perspective, seeing war in the game as more like a sport, where sportsmanship matters and the true "winners" are those who can show they are the best of the best at beating equal size and strength competitors, or go down bravely trying on the day. On that perspective it would be cheap and hollow to count a victory against a far weaker opponent as significant. So that's one key place where minds don't meet, in my view.

I completely agree with your words...
At the same time I wanna tell you...
Offensively I'll be a lion.. but I'm pretty sure defensively I'll be a calf... Right Sir!
So do you think it's unfair sportmanship???

Everyone complains about offensive when it comes to engineers,, but they never say anything about defense,,,
For example- I'm #1 in lineup,I got 2*Rd/3*Rd by #10... But nobody says
I'm #16 or #10 and I 2*Rd/3*Rd #10...
July 21st, 2017
Jeffmex46

*their x2
10 chars
July 21st, 2017
rrru

We lost a few times to engineering clans that have more th11s with max troops than us. Their bottom bases attack strength are equivalent to our no1 & 2. So, 2 of us decided to build mini max to counter this advantage.

Right now the 2 mini max bases have max dragons and baby warden. Good enough to take max th9 or 2 stars th10 if executed well. So it helps a little, freeing up the th11s & th10s to take the bigger bases. Guess we need to adapt given the current situation rather than feeling helpless against these clans. Don't think this means we have done something wrong. Shrug.

Right now if supercell changes the rules on engineers, then we need to adapt again if we want to continue to war.
July 21st, 2017
Samedov

I see no reason people stay th10 till max. I just went th11 to max heroes, get warden. Will see what sc plans to do but I don't mind if they make it harder for engineers.
July 21st, 2017
Tomville

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooh26

I completely agree with your words...
At the same time I wanna tell you...
Offensively I'll be a lion.. but I'm pretty sure defensively I'll be a calf... Right Sir!
So do you think it's unfair sportmanship???

Everyone complains about offensive when it comes to engineers,, but they never say anything about defense,,,
For example- I'm #1 in lineup,I got 2*Rd/3*Rd by #10... But nobody says
I'm #16 or #10 and I 2*Rd/3*Rd #10...

I think that for the person who sees war along the lines of the sports analogy, it's poor sportsmanship in that it deliberately seeks to match a weak opponent rather than a same size one.

As it happens, I'm one of those - in war I prefer taking on another th10 or having a cheeky swipe at a small th11, as opposed to beating up a th9 or attacking a base missing key defences. That's not right or wrong, fair or unfair, that's just my fun. Other people's fun is the 3 starring, so there's no doubt plenty my size who would be happy seeing a th9 for them to attack. To me personally there's nothing like the thrill or pride of doing well on a bigger one - the 55% 2 star on a th11 means far more to me than 3 starring a th9, whereas for others there's nothing like the thrill of a war 6 pack, or a long win streak.

There are two issues with the defence aspect. The biggest of which is that offence counts more as everyone has 2 attacks but can only be 3 starred once, so naturally people are far more concerned with that as it's where the engineers' advantage lays. The other is that it's just plain boring to attack highly engineered bases - attacking a 0.5 isn't bad, but being the person who needs clean up the joke thing with one cannon is not at all fun.
July 21st, 2017
Stevejnr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooh26

Everyone complains about offensive when it comes to engineers,, but they never say anything about defense,,,
For example- I'm #1 in lineup,I got 2*Rd/3*Rd by #10... But nobody says
I'm #16 or #10 and I 2*Rd/3*Rd #10...

There is a reason nobody apart from engineers bring defence into the equation, it's because it's not an advantage being able to 3 star an engineered base. The whole point that you are missing here is this.
The engineered base at #10 in a war that has TH6 defences will get easily 3 starred by its opposite number maybe a TH7 and give up an easy 3 stars. But if that engineered base has the offence capability of a TH11 with a max Warden it will likely 3 star two of the enemy TH10s, gaining 6 stars. It's weak defence is no advantage to the enemy clan because all the TH7/8 will 3 star each other anyway with spare attacks, but their offence will not be able to 3 star any of the enemy TH10s so the remainder of their attacks become useless unless they are used to scout an enemy CC. An engineered base takes 2 of these otherwise wasted attacks and uses them higher up where the stars are not guaranteed by equal TH levels, giving the clan with the engineered bases more attacks at the more difficult bases.
I don't hate engineers, I have a semi engineered base, but I am fully expecting to have to throw it away at some point in the near future and it will make me happy to do so, because I hate the way the matchmaking and war weighting works, it promotes something that I don't think is positive for the game.
I wonder how you will feel about having to either build all your defences to be competitive in wars or discard your engineered base, if they introduce something to put a deserved end to the engineering problem?
July 21st, 2017
Goonerwinone

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Kentucky

Thanks Braxton. It's no different than people rushing to bh6 in the builder hall. There was a thread yesterday where someone complained about having to always face 6's as a 5 and the majority basically laughed at him. What makes it ok to game the system on the BH but not the TH? It's a double standard by the non engineer crowd.

I'm surprised no one had quoted this.
The quote is the best reply to all really.
(I'm not in or ever been in or actually ever faced an engineered clan) but I remember that thread about the man/woman having a hard time against rushed BH6's and getting slaughtered, the main reply was "it you can't beat em join em" , but say that in an ongoing engineering thread and watch yourself get hammered with "but that's just adding to the problem".

Must agree double standards are rampant
July 21st, 2017
Lady Maverick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomville

but being the person who needs clean up the joke thing with one cannon is not at all fun.

This is so true... And I'm not one among them, I'm a 9.75 I get placed below th10 with inferno,, I'm missing only infernos and ea,, rest everything I have... (Maxed Upto th10,,ad & Tesla th11)
So that even if SC bring up something,, I'm gonna accept and adapt to changes... Challenging is fun... Change is something which says you're progressing!!
July 21st, 2017
Lady Maverick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevejnr

I don't hate engineers, I have a semi engineered base, but I am fully expecting to have to throw it away at some point in the near future and it will make me happy to do so, because I hate the way the matchmaking and war weighting works, it promotes something that I don't think is positive for the game.

Exactly.... Engineers came into life,, when they faced one..( I started when we met one, and heard them saying, don't complain,, if you can't beat us,,, try to improve yourself) You have a semi engineered account,, So am i,, I'm not gonna throw it... I'll just accept changes and modify it in a week...
July 21st, 2017
ClasherClash443

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooh26

Appreciate Your words..
People Often complain about Engineered bases and as u said hate them ONLY on the basis of war..

The Reason they hate--
1-Nobody skips the bases in multiplayer by clicking next Because a th9 can easily take down th9.5/9.75 which offers massive loot.
2- WAR-- they think they can 2*/3* easily top bases,but they dont realize its easy to 3* them as well...
3- Every Multiplayer defense a Eng base face in Multiplayer, They always lose a bunch of resources(nobody leaves a penny behind)
4- They hate us Because Engg people struggle hard to farm, with lots of patience and skill in making bases trying to save some resources(if possible)
5- A strategical game needs a Strategy and Engg people follow it.. Its not cheap or unfair.
Its a kind of strategy which a winners think.(Even a Strongest Lion tries to hunt a baby calf rather than going for a huge Bison)
6- Engineered people only have advantage in war, Apart from that.?( This is why u hate)
i can pen down a lot more...
But all i Want To Tell You is... Everything Is FAIR in LOVE and WAR...

Most of us can smash a normal base for all it's loot as well. This is such a minor piece of a very big problem.

I have an engineered TH11 with TH6 defenses and honestly, the loot thing just really isn't an issue. I have no more trouble saving up or making loot on my TH11 engineered base than I do on my TH10 maxer style base.

I think most engineers like to play this "but we give up easy loot and it's hard to progress" card because they believe the maxer crowd will buy into it. It's just not true.

The difference between saving and making loot on my maxer base vs my engineered base is just not noticable. Trophies maybe. The engineered base gets fully cleared every time so it loses more trophies but even then, it wasn't much work to get it to champs for the 2000 gems.

I'm just not seeing this "but we give up easy loot" argument as a fair tradeoff to ruining people's war experience.
July 21st, 2017
Jeeei

I think the core of the hate is to SC TBH, engineers are only playing what is it front of them, the game mechanics allow this, techinally they are not doing anything that is breaking any rules or laws, they arent modding, hacking, breaking TOS
SC with their lack of foresight and then lack of any forseeable action or unability to remedy the situation is the problem

I dont hate engineers, i hate that the game allows this to happen
July 21st, 2017
Salkin101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonerwinone

I'm surprised no one had quoted this.
The quote is the best reply to all really.
(I'm not in our ever been in our actually ever faced an engineered clan) but I remember that thread about the man/woman having a hard time against rushed BH6's and getting slaughtered, the main reply was "it you can't beat em join em" , but say that in an ongoing engineering thread and watch yourself get hammered with "but that's just adding to the problem".

Must agree double standards are rampant

There are quite a few problems with equating the two, which makes the whole point pretty nonsensical.

First, trophy pushing in BB vs main base, strategic rushing is better in both to attain both a better trophy count as well as better loot, they are not different in that regard, maxing, is simply not the most efficient way to play in either mode to max out everything in your base.
Also we have had plenty of ppl at th8-9 complaining they aren't finding enough ppl of the same TH when pushing.

Secondly if you have been maxing your base in BH there is a easy fix to be more optimal (if thats your preference), upgrade your bh, instead of maxing every single troop and defense focus on a few/one troop you can do that o your current account, no new account needed. You do not need to delete your account that you have been playing for years and start from scratch to change your base to be more optimal.
Having to create a new account to be optimal in wars since you dropped defenses in a tower defense game is insane.
July 21st, 2017
gaz1966

Hmmm, different perspective on things perhaps in 2014 ?? The original engineer ?

https://forum.supercell.com/showthread.php/482024-I-ve-changed-Coc
July 21st, 2017
mcleo

I agree there is no reason to hate or get personal over this engineering stuff. I hate it though when I am matched in war against engineers, it takes a lot of fun out of the game. I respect what they do, they put a lot of effort in. My hate though is pointed at SC for allowing this as apprantly intended gameplay while TH sniping was not and had to be removed. There werent any rules broken with TH sniping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmille3

This may seem pointless to you guys, but I need to get this off my chest. And no, I do not have an engineered account in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

Engineers recieve hate. Everyone agree? I mean, I see it on nearly a daily basis on this forum. People giving engineers a bad time. People who support it? Instant downvote. It's crazy to me, why some choose to hate on people who haven't done anything wrong. They have not broke the rules.

Please, do not hate on engineers. What they do is annoying, sure. It may even be cheap or unfair. But don't give them a hard time for it. They are simply doing the best option available. It's not there fault it's still possible. SC has let it go for years, despite constant complaints.

Disagree? Please state why. Also, please realize, I'm not supporting engineering at all, I'm simply saying, why is it there fault if the option is out there and nothing has been done to fix it?
July 21st, 2017
GenericCRPlayer

I don't hate engineers themselves. I just hate the current MM algorithm. I feel like the effectiveness of engineering shoudl be reduced, but not completely negated. So engineers still have a small, but not game-breaking, advantage.

But off-topic, why is engineering allowed but TH sniping 'not the way the game was supposed to be played?' Both were not against the rules, and are just results of smart players adapting. People will always find the path of least resistance.
July 21st, 2017
AcemanCOC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevejnr

I wonder how you will feel about having to either build all your defences to be competitive in wars or discard your engineered base, if they introduce something to put a deserved end to the engineering problem?

I have a defenseless TH10 with 30/31 heroes. Not a dime spent on it, so pretty hardcore DE farming.
But that was a lot of fun to do. I started the base just to have a new challenge. In the beginning I did not even war with it.
I actually took a brake from war the last two weeks again, and not sure when I pick it up - too much real life stuff going on. Still enjoying a couple of raids at breakfast, and while brushing my teeth in the evening (want to maintain cups).
It was also a lot of fun to take six stars on nr 1 and 2 in war (typically maxed TH9s, when I was TH9 as well) with lavaloon, with both heroes down.
So if my base becomes worthless due to some update? That's fine. I have had my fun and challenge. I also have a regular perma TH9 on standby that will come in handy if maxxing becomes the new war meta.
July 21st, 2017
Babipanggang

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooh26

Appreciate Your words..
People Often complain about Engineered bases and as u said hate them ONLY on the basis of war..

The Reason they hate--
1-Nobody skips the bases in multiplayer by clicking next Because a th9 can easily take down th9.5/9.75 which offers massive loot.
2- WAR-- they think they can 2*/3* easily top bases,but they dont realize its easy to 3* them as well...
3- Every Multiplayer defense a Eng base face in Multiplayer, They always lose a bunch of resources(nobody leaves a penny behind)
4- They hate us Because Engg people struggle hard to farm, with lots of patience and skill in making bases trying to save some resources(if possible)
5- A strategical game needs a Strategy and Engg people follow it.. Its not cheap or unfair.
Its a kind of strategy which a winners think.(Even a Strongest Lion tries to hunt a baby calf rather than going for a huge Bison)
6- Engineered people only have advantage in war, Apart from that.?( This is why u hate)
i can pen down a lot more...
But all i Want To Tell You is... Everything Is FAIR in LOVE and WAR...

I am failing to see how engineers struggle hard to farm? Engineers, attack wise, are the same as others.
July 21st, 2017
kotepikabea

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcemanCOC

I have a defenseless TH10 with 30/31 heroes. Not a dime spent on it, so pretty hardcore DE farming.
But that was a lot of fun to do. I started the base just to have a new challenge. In the beginning I did not even war with it.
I actually took a brake from war the last two weeks again, and not sure when I pick it up - too much real life stuff going on. Still enjoying a couple of raids at breakfast, and while brushing my teeth in the evening (want to maintain cups).
It was also a lot of fun to take six stars on nr 1 and 2 in war (typically maxed TH9s, when I was TH9 as well) with lavaloon, with both heroes down.
So if my base becomes worthless due to some update? That's fine. I have had my fun and challenge. I also have a regular perma TH9 on standby that will come in handy if maxxing becomes the new war meta.

It is easier and faster to "fix" an engineered account than start a new one. You have the heroes, the hardest thing of the game. Upgrading defenses is very easy, because farming gold is very easy. The only problem is the time / builders needed, but with a plan you could have a max TH9 in less than a year and without much effort.
July 21st, 2017
PraisedOne

Unpopular opinion.
I'll be honest here. I'm 100% sure that SC match them against each other. My non engineered clan wasn't matched even once against them for 2 months, so I don't hate them or SC.
I'm not saying the matchmaking is perfect, but it isn't horrible.
July 21st, 2017
AcemanCOC

Quote:

Originally Posted by PraisedOne

Unpopular opinion.
I'll be honest here. I'm 100% sure that SC match them against each other. My non engineered clan wasn't matched even once against them for 2 months.
I'm not saying the matchmaking is perfect, but it isn't horrible.

Why should this be unpopular? I believe this is quite right. I was in a clan where we had a lot of defenseless bases. Most of them worthless (weak offense), so we did not put them in war and would meet regular clans. But if we put a few of them in anyway (as fillers), we would usually attract another engineered clan.
July 21st, 2017
RagingKoala

Engineers respond more than sc, so naturally they are more spoken against. If sc would do more than a quarterly "it's on our radar and we are looking into it while continuing to make adjustments" canned responses, maybe the blame would be better focused.
July 21st, 2017
SuperKai

agreed, i even think that engineering isn't that bad, except if there are real engineered clans, but only one or two all players are trying to do is just help their clan a bit
July 21st, 2017
Stevejnr

Quote:

Originally Posted by PraisedOne

Unpopular opinion.
I'll be honest here. I'm 100% sure that SC match them against each other. My non engineered clan wasn't matched even once against them for 2 months, so I don't hate them or SC.
I'm not saying the matchmaking is perfect, but it isn't horrible.

No reason it should be unpopular, but its not always true that if you don't have any x.5 or engineered bases you will not meet engineered bases. Unfortunately the matchmaking widens the search pattern the longer it takes to find a match, meaning you could end up with one in the next war and then not see one for several months, it is just a matter of luck.
There are things that can be done to reduce the chances of meeting up with engineered bases in wars, smaller wars with a common spread of players, 2 TH10, 6 TH9 and 2 TH8, is likely to be easier for the matchmaking to find a balanced match up for than 1 TH10, 1 TH9, 4 TH8 and 4 TH6 for example.
July 21st, 2017
tallas13

Supercell can't stop "us" from having an advantage. No matter what they do to the MM algorithm, I will find a way to exploit it.
July 21st, 2017
OnyxDS

Quote:

....

Please, do not hate on engineers. What they do is annoying, sure. It may even be cheap or unfair. But don't give them a hard time for it. They are simply doing the best option available. It's not there fault it's still possible. SC has let it go for years, despite constant complaints.

Disagree? Please state why. Also, please realize, I'm not supporting engineering at all, I'm simply saying, why is it there fault if the option is out there and nothing has been done to fix it?

I think a lot of the rage is misdirected, especially by people who have just been in a bad war. But I also think many people on here don't direct their anger at engineers, but rather at SC - that's certainly the consensus on the wars sub-forum.

There is one sort of engineer though that does make my blood boil. And that's the sort that think they've done something clever with a very lopsided account and deserve to win. They'll jump in on a thread where someone is complaining that they had a mismatch and say something like it's not SC's fault if the OP's clan got beaten by a clan using a better strategy. They often really cannot see why people wouldn't want to play that game. And they also really cannot see how bad their own strategy often is. I've seen countless enemy "engineered", ie lopsided, bases. Maybe a handful had actually done something clever and thought through the strategy or really understood war weights; and I've got some respect for those. The rest clearly had little idea - but being lopsided still worked despite their erratic upgrades - that's how broken the MM can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonerwinone

I'm surprised no one had quoted this.
The quote is the best reply to all really.
(I'm not in our ever been in our actually ever faced an engineered clan) but I remember that thread about the man/woman having a hard time against rushed BH6's and getting slaughtered, the main reply was "it you can't beat em join em" , but say that in an ongoing engineering thread and watch yourself get hammered with "but that's just adding to the problem".

Must agree double standards are rampant

No there's a fundamental difference between the 2. The war MM is supposed to match 2 clans of equal strength. The BH MM is supposed to match 2 people with equal trophies regardless of strength. If you climb high enough you will be beaten up by someone you cannot possibly beat. That's the way it's supposed to work. Just the same as the main game MM - if a TH8 tries to climb up to legends league they will be fighting against TH11s.
July 21st, 2017
KJ

They hate engineers, they hate maxer, they hate gemmer what else?
July 21st, 2017
bhavyamamgain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooh26

Well,,, This game can be played however A PLAYER wants to play.. That's why you see rushed bases,, a base which is maxed before going to next town hall, and then there is engineers...
And you are telling here that people should play according to what others like,,, but not according to what he/she likes!?
If I would have been asked to do something what others like and not something what I would like to do... Then it's better not to do it all..

And lastly,,,

People hate when someone is doing either better or worse.... I'm pretty damn sure... Engineers aren't doing worse...

No one is telling anyone how should they play. The fact is when you encounter a clan, full of engineers, from top to bottom, you know that this isn't a coincidence that all of them found engineering better. If a clan is full of engineers, then they obviously did to manipulate the war MM and thanks tO SC, they have so far succeeded. But that doesn't mean we should respect engineers in any way.
If non engineers hate them, it doesn't mean engineers are doing "better" as you are suggesting.
Put a maxed base against an engineered base and you will find out who is better. I have literally seen TH11s being put up against TH7s in war and and engineers win those kinds of wars only and you are suggesting engineers are doing better ?
July 21st, 2017
JFSoul

I don't understand the point of this thread, other than to enflame negative feelings. In my opinion, when this topic comes up, there are passionate arguments on both sides. Recommend you stick with MM discussion, not whether a group of folks should be hated, and to discuss why or why not they should be hated.
July 21st, 2017
2222

There is no hate for engineers from me. If someone knows that a certain defense is bad for war, why would I hate them for not building it? Should I expect them to intentionally make their base bad for war? That makes little sense to me. Criticism of bad matches should be directed at the faulty matchmaker, not the players. Engineering is a symptom of a problem, not the problem.

The exception to this is roster engineering where clans put a lot of low weight bases in their line up in order to match a weaker clan. I would not go so far as to say hate, but I do think criticism is fair in that situation. That is not someone building their base in a way that the matchmaker tells them is the right way to build it. That is someone intentionally throwing off the match by adding in a lot of junk accounts at the bottom just to get a weaker opponent that they can then easily get a perfect war against. That sounds like no fun for either clan.
July 21st, 2017
GwennyPants

It isn't hate for engineers, it's hate for the fact that engineered bases are allowed to exist on a level playing field with non engineered bases
July 21st, 2017
rwelshjr
I think I agree with the OP on this basis
1. They are not cheating.
2. Any imbalance in the MM you feel they are taking advantage of...they are not the ones that put it there.
3. The base you got mad at in war you are in love with when you come across it while farming. (And I have found those gift loot situations to be happening more often)
4. Even though I personally would not want to, we all do have the option to go that route and are making our own choices just like they made theirs.
5. Because hating and being angry are bad things. This is just a game you are supposed to play for enjoyment. If it is making you feel hateful and angry thats not enjoyment.
The bolding of #5 was not an accident. Also see my sig.
July 21st, 2017
StanDadVille

I believe that SC has stated that Engineering is not how they intended the game to be played. Kudos to people who find a loophole that allows them to progress at the expense of others and shame on SC for allowing it to go on for so long.

Engineering spoils a great many people's game experience so, while SC inadertantly have given engineers the opportunity, don't blame others for hating them for doing it. It's only natural and not undeserved
July 21st, 2017
loubaby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmille3

This may seem pointless to you guys, but I need to get this off my chest. And no, I do not have an engineered account in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

Engineers recieve hate. Everyone agree? I mean, I see it on nearly a daily basis on this forum. People giving engineers a bad time. People who support it? Instant downvote. It's crazy to me, why some choose to hate on people who haven't done anything wrong. They have not broke the rules.

Please, do not hate on engineers. What they do is annoying, sure. It may even be cheap or unfair. But don't give them a hard time for it. They are simply doing the best option available. It's not there fault it's still possible. SC has let it go for years, despite constant complaints.

Disagree? Please state why. Also, please realize, I'm not supporting engineering at all, I'm simply saying, why is it there fault if the option is out there and nothing has been done to fix it?

The only engineers that I don't like are the ones who started the whole thing. Since then I can understand why others have done it... if your clan is not filled with maxed th11's you will lose to even a moderately skilled engineering clan and nobody wants to lose especially if your losing the moment prep day begins.
July 21st, 2017
Genericuser

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevejnr

Responses in bold.
The biggest problem with engineered bases is they hide amongst the bases that all get 3 starred by the surrounding bases anyway with attacks to spare, so they have not cost anything to the clan with the engineered bases. They then attack higher up the order for 3 stars at the levels where 3 stars are not guaranteed, giving the clan with the engineered bases an unfair (in my subjective opinion) attacking advantage higher up where the deciding stars are won or lost.

This. Couldn't have said it better myself
July 21st, 2017
OdinDaBoss

Everyone should use less than 35% of their armies when raiding engineered bases if you can. This way they aren't going to have the loot to war.
July 21st, 2017
nerfedname

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Kentucky

Thanks Braxton. It's no different than people rushing to bh6 in the builder hall. There was a thread yesterday where someone complained about having to always face 6's as a 5 and the majority basically laughed at him. What makes it ok to game the system on the BH but not the TH? It's a double standard by the non engineer crowd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonerwinone

I'm surprised no one had quoted this.
The quote is the best reply to all really.
(I'm not in our ever been in our actually ever faced an engineered clan) but I remember that thread about the man/woman having a hard time against rushed BH6's and getting slaughtered, the main reply was "it you can't beat em join em" , but say that in an ongoing engineering thread and watch yourself get hammered with "but that's just adding to the problem".

Must agree double standards are rampant

To be fair, I think the double standard exists because the two matchmaking systems are fundamentally different, and most importantly, advertised as such.

In boatmode (what I call the builder hall) it's a PvP ladder system where it's 1v1, and matching is primarily based on trophy count. The goal is to climb upwards in trophy count. As you get higher in cups, you're bound to start seeing players at a higher builder hall than you, and if you'd like to continue climbing in cups your best strategy is to rush/upgrade your BH to match them. If you're at a cup level where you consistently see BHs of a higher level, either move up yourself and/or float around your current cup level and upgrade until you're ready to climb organically. Furthermore, if you take one raid and find it's against a BH+1 opponent, you waste 3-5 minutes of your time and try again.

By contrast, in war matchmaking, it's a team effort with the advertised and stated goal of the matchmaker to be "matching clans of relatively equal strength." Heavy engineering ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥izes this process and makes it such that in many cases the two clans are NOT in any way "equal in strength." Not only does this ruin the experience for a single player, it ruins the experience for AN ENTIRE CLAN! And it last 48 hours to boot! You're stuck there, for two days, with either little hope of winning (against a good engineered clan), or little hope of a competitive war where you watch the other sides rushed TH11s fail to 3* TH9s with lavaloon and bowler spam while the bottom half of your clan get boring, no-skill (and no loot) raids against defenseless bases and roster-stacked TH3s. It's a sham, and painful, and saps the fun out of the game.

When I encounter a builderhall higher than mine in boatmode, oh well, 5 minutes gone and good for that guy, he's a higher BH than me and probably rightly belongs higher on the ladder than I. When I get to watch my clan chat go silent for 48 hours and have to do the next war at 15s instead of 20s (because a couple shields go red out of disgust), it has a far more lasting and distasteful impact on my (and my entire clans) enjoyment of the game...

-------------------------------------------

Edit to add: And on topic, NO I do not necessarily hate the player (although some pro-engineering voices here have grown more emboldened and tiresome by the day/week/month), I hate the game. It's incumbent upon SC to fix this issue, and it's a damn shame they've dragged their feet as long as they have...
July 21st, 2017
MattVargo

It is an exploit, pure and simple. Needs to be patched. Long, long overdue.
July 21st, 2017
StanDadVille

Well said nerfedname. There is no sensible parallel between engineering and BH rushing
July 21st, 2017
RedSov

I can't say my opinion about loop bases and their owners cuz I would be banned and I like to write comments here occasionally jeje
July 21st, 2017
PatrickV

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavyamamgain

Engineering is not a "strategy".

ROFL

I'm an engineer and ALWAYS face a TH11. Non engineers just suck at attacking a TH11 without IT/EA. They should blame themselves not the smart people.

Obviously saying ALL non engineers is a joke, because people always say engineers don't know how to attack, which is stupid as we're used to face max TH11s. Even though it's true that I've only been 3-starred once.
July 21st, 2017
BaronScarpia

I think it's clever use of game mechanics that should have been fixed a long time ago. I think it's "wrong" because there is really no point into winning without a meaningful reward or challenge and it ruins the game for people (including kids) that want some competition. While it's not against the rules, when you go too out of the way (making engineered clans with th3 bases on the bottom), it shows lack of fair play, IMO.

I'm totally ok with FWA/OL since, while a competitive clan "wastes 2 days" sometimes, at least it doesn't ruin their win streak or they spirits by crushing them on a match which only a tie is possible if they give their best.

Tl,dr: if the other clan can't win even if they do their best, which happens in some engineering matches, there is something wrong. I don't judge people, but it's not like I feel empathy for players that show that level of consideration with the rest of community. I won't throw stones at them, but that's pretty much it...
July 21st, 2017
d112

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavyamamgain

Engineering is not a "strategy". That is a deliberate attempt to take advantage of war MM loopholes.

FYI that actually the definition of strategy: take any possibile advantage exploiting game mechanic and enemy weakness.

OP: winning people will always be hatet by losing ones, in every field. Nothing you can do about it
July 21st, 2017
FaultGuy6

The solution was, is and will continue to be simple - match based on th level. And don't give me that "I'm a brand new th_x. I don't have a chance vs my mirror!". Well bud, stay out of wars until you get stronger OR help with the lower bases while someone above you takes your mirror. Really, it isn't difficult.
July 21st, 2017
Ripple1972

Quote:

Originally Posted by FaultGuy6

The solution was, is and will continue to be simple - match based on th level. And don't give me that "I'm a brand new th_x. I don't have a chance vs my mirror!". Well bud, stay out of wars until you get stronger OR help with the lower bases while someone above you takes your mirror. Really, it isn't difficult.

A bad idea repeated often, is still a bad idea.
July 21st, 2017
DBlaze

I've seen this argument time and again. Most of us who aren't engineered don't just simply hate on engineers. They're not cheating. They're not breaking any rules or the tos. Our problem is with the mm. It gives these bases too much of an advantage. All we want is fair matches. No advantages given to either clan. Everyone should be able to build their base however they want. But what's the point of a mm if it's not designed to give fair matches? Skill should be the determining factor that separates clans. Not an unfair mm that decided to match 2 clans that have no business facing each other but the mm disguises it as giving these 2 clans an even chance at winning. It almost feels as though the mm sees one clan as having more skill but matches them to another clan with less skill and handed a handicap to help close the gap. How many times have we seen non engineered clans say "we would have stomped them if we had the SAME BASES?"
July 21st, 2017
JFSoul

Quote:

Originally Posted by nerfedname

To be fair, I think the double standard exists because the two matchmaking systems are fundamentally different, and most importantly, advertised as such.

In boatmode (what I call the builder hall) it's a PvP ladder system where it's 1v1, and matching is primarily based on trophy count. The goal is to climb upwards in trophy count. As you get higher in cups, you're bound to start seeing players at a higher builder hall than you, and if you'd like to continue climbing in cups your best strategy is to rush/upgrade your BH to match them. If you're at a cup level where you consistently see BHs of a higher level, either move up yourself and/or float around your current cup level and upgrade until you're ready to climb organically. Furthermore, if you take one raid and find it's against a BH+1 opponent, you waste 3-5 minutes of your time and try again.

By contrast, in war matchmaking, it's a team effort with the advertised and stated goal of the matchmaker to be "matching clans of relatively equal strength." Heavy engineering ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥izes this process and makes it such that in many cases the two clans are NOT in any way "equal in strength." Not only does this ruin the experience for a single player, it ruins the experience for AN ENTIRE CLAN! And it last 48 hours to boot! You're stuck there, for two days, with either little hope of winning (against a good engineered clan), or little hope of a competitive war where you watch the other sides rushed TH11s fail to 3* TH9s with lavaloon and bowler spam while the bottom half of your clan get boring, no-skill (and no loot) raids against defenseless bases and roster-stacked TH3s. It's a sham, and painful, and saps the fun out of the game.

When I encounter a builderhall higher than mine in boatmode, oh well, 5 minutes gone and good for that guy, he's a higher BH than me and probably rightly belongs higher on the ladder than I. When I get to watch my clan chat go silent for 48 hours and have to do the next war at 15s instead of 20s (because a couple shields go red out of disgust), it has a far more lasting and distasteful impact on my (and my entire clans) enjoyment of the game...

-------------------------------------------

Edit to add: And on topic, NO I do not necessarily hate the player (although some pro-engineering voices here have grown more emboldened and tiresome by the day/week/month), I hate the game. It's incumbent upon SC to fix this issue, and it's a damn shame they've dragged their feet as long as they have...

Could not be stated any better. Extremely well put, as always.
July 21st, 2017
789firespawn

I am a full supporter of engineering. I myself do not have one, however, I think it's just a clever way to move around the MM. No rules are being violated, no policies disregarded. My issue is that other people don't do it and complain, when they could easily be doing it. People have a right to voice their dislike of it, but I for one am for it
July 21st, 2017
Mat5592

Engineers have singlehandedly ruined random clan wars.

Coupled with supercell's incompetence, obviously. Which is why I can't blame the engineers. This is apparently how supercell wants the game to be played or they would have addressed it by now.
July 21st, 2017
Monoxide

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavyamamgain

Engineering is not a "strategy". That is a deliberate attempt to take advantage of war MM loopholes. They might have their own reasons to do it and no one is saying that is against the rule. But you get hate when you do something which is not desirable and the ones who never took advantage of any loophole suffers almost daily because of you.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you get to change the definition of a word completely. Engineering is a strategy. "A deliberate attempt to take advantage of war mm loopholes" may be the reason to use an engineering strategy when deciding how to develop a base. But it's still a strategy.

I'm personally indifferent to engineering. SC can let it continue and I'll continue to develop my engineered account accordingly or SC can change the mm and I'll adjust accordingly to that.
July 21st, 2017
Bmille3

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattVargo

It is an exploit, pure and simple. Needs to be patched. Long, long overdue.

I agree, no reason to try and give me a downvote.
July 21st, 2017
manosnta

5 th11s versus 31 th11s. I have every right to hate on engineers.
Their #43 #42 #38 three starred our #22 #21 #20 #19 #18 #17. The war was over before it even started
July 21st, 2017
manosnta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmille3

Why? They aren't breaking the rules. I realize it's annoying, but shouldn't the hate be on SC for not fixing it by now?

there are clans that engineer and clans that do not.If SC put engineered clans against each other at war,no one would complain.Instead, They put Engineered VS non-engineered clans,and the non-engineered have no chance at winning.And no,i am not talking about 2-3 extra th10-11s .I am talking about 26 more th11s,with offense good enough to wreck our max th10s
July 21st, 2017
bhavyamamgain

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatrickV

ROFL

I'm an engineer and ALWAYS face a TH11. Non engineers just suck at attacking a TH11 without IT/EA. They should blame themselves not the smart people.

Obviously saying ALL non engineers is a joke, because people always say engineers don't know how to attack, which is stupid as we're used to face max TH11s. Even though it's true that I've only been 3-starred once.

You have an engineered base and still your base only got 3 starred once ? Enough for me to understand what clans you meet in wars. My clans also meet engineers every now and then. My clan has only 3 TH11s and there are many occasions when they all are opted out. So we have only TH10s and 9s to war quite often. And we get loads of Th11s as our opponents' then. So you may be facing TH11s only, but there are thousands of engineers who exploit this loophole to get lower TH levels in war so that they don't have to face tough opponents.

Whatever people say, everyone knows one thing for sure and that is- engineering is done to avoid tough matchups. It is as simple as that. No "different way of playing" comes here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d112

FYI that actually the definition of strategy: take any possibile advantage exploiting game mechanic and enemy weakness.

So that way, using mod is also a strategy then. It also exploits game mechanics.
July 21st, 2017
Springerrob

I love these threads :smirk:

People say they hate engineers who handicap their bases for farming purposes and matchmaking by not building defences.

People say they love war but handicap their offense ability by not upgrading hero's because they delay upgrading hero's because they'd rather war and collect shiny stars.

I love both camps because I get to impose my engineer tax on engineers bases with out infernos and EA's, and I get to laugh at people with way more stars then me that bring their baby hero's to my base for sacrifice :cool:
July 21st, 2017
TrollBishop
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmille3

This may seem pointless to you guys, but I need to get this off my chest. And no, I do not have an engineered account in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

Engineers recieve hate. Everyone agree? I mean, I see it on nearly a daily basis on this forum. People giving engineers a bad time. People who support it? Instant downvote. It's crazy to me, why some choose to hate on people who haven't done anything wrong. They have not broke the rules.

Please, do not hate on engineers. What they do is annoying, sure. It may even be cheap or unfair. But don't give them a hard time for it. They are simply doing the best option available. It's not there fault it's still possible. SC has let it go for years, despite constant complaints.

Disagree? Please state why. Also, please realize, I'm not supporting engineering at all, I'm simply saying, why is it there fault if the option is out there and nothing has been done to fix it?

This is literally the definition of gamesmanship: Definition of gamesmanship
1: the art or practice of winning games by questionable expedients without actually violating the rules
2: the use of ethically dubious methods to gain an objective
Normally these dubious methods are regulated by the community and don't happen very often because there were repercussions from fellow gamers. In this case the community can take no action to prevent it from happening.

Think of the unwritten rules of baseball and then getting "beaned" if you break one. These individuals are seen as unethical by the community and deserved or not will be receiving hate unless the community has a culture shift. Just my 2 cents.
July 21st, 2017
Chang405

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavyamamgain

So that way, using mod is also a strategy then. It also exploits game mechanics.

There is a key difference. Using mods was against TOS (the official rules).

If a professor allows open book exams, a student who uses his notes during the exam cannot be accused of using exploits.
July 21st, 2017
strandwolfza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chang405

There is a key difference. Using mods was against TOS (the official rules)

those who engineer use this argument all the time, but I don't think that's a very good defence

as an experiment, let's say supercell add a rule to the ToS tomorrow saying that engineering is forbidden and they'll punish those who do it (I know this would never happen, but stay with me). If they did this, would you change your views and position about engineering overnight? I mean, just because now it's in the ToS?

my point is, people should be able to decide what's right or wrong regardless of any written rule, I mean, we're intelligent people, are we not?

it used to be forbidden by the ToS to discuss cheating in the forums and a lot of members got banned because of this, but one day supercell decided to rethink this and allow such discussions here and just because of this, now we can talk about it, but what about all those people who had lost their accounts and got banned forever?

my point: the ToS is not everything, we should be able to think with our own heads and not depend solely on the ToS
July 21st, 2017
parthrock

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=J6BTd_IAJvQ
July 21st, 2017
parthrock

I hate engineers, we had lost our current war b4 it's started
July 21st, 2017
ClasherClash443

Quote:

Originally Posted by d112

FYI that actually the definition of strategy: take any possibile advantage exploiting game mechanic and enemy weakness.

OP: winning people will always be hatet by losing ones, in every field. Nothing you can do about it

Lol that is not the actual definition of strategy.
July 21st, 2017
Skinnyfat

I was thinking about this whole idea yesterday and people's attitude towards engineers.

What is the difference between engineering (which many see as lame) and dipping to attack a TH9 as a TH11 or TH10? Both behaviours could be considered 'dishonourable' as its same argument used against engineers. A lower TH has a drastically reduced chance to defend against a higher TH but that is not frowned upon.

I think it's just anger because players are getting owned and they don't like it. My opinion is people should direct all anger to SC who have left this problem to fester into what it is today. I do not understand at all - the hate or contempt directed toward the player. Actually, I understand it but I do not agree with it.
July 21st, 2017
Luitjens

Current war.

Us:

1 TH 10, 1 TH 9, 5 TH8s 1 TH7, 2 TH6

Them
4 TH 11s, 1 TH10, 1 TH9, 2 TH8, 2 TH7

Their clan name is actually ENGR. BASE lol!

Brand new clan, 8 win streak, 8 wins. Our best hope is to bring them to a draw and ruin their win streak.

Tell me how this is fair...
July 21st, 2017
littledoctor

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

as an experiment, let's say supercell add a rule to the ToS tomorrow saying that engineering is forbidden and they'll punish those who do it (I know this would never happen, but stay with me). If they did this, would you change your views and position about engineering overnight? I mean, just because now it's in the ToS?

I'd probably quit playing the game. Without engineering, it wouldn't be fun. I play strategy games to strategize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

my point is, people should be able to decide what's right or wrong regardless of any written rule, I mean, we're intelligent people, are we not?

You are free to decide that engineering is wrong for you. The "it's not against the TOS" claim is a defense against people attempting to force their views on others (which is, of course, the entire point of "ethics").
July 21st, 2017
fifaworld2

Quote:

Originally Posted by littledoctor

I'd probably quit playing the game. Without engineering, it wouldn't be fun. I play strategy games to strategize.

Yea I mean obviously there would be no strategy left in COC if they punished engineering.
July 21st, 2017
strandwolfza

Quote:

Originally Posted by littledoctor

I'd probably quit playing the game. Without engineering, it wouldn't be fun. I play strategy games to strategize.

you kind of missed the point of the experiment, but I understand that you would not change your views if supercell changed the ToS. if this is the case, it suggests that you only use the ToS to support what you already believe, but you would believe it anyway, regardless of any ToS

Quote:

You are free to decide that engineering is wrong for you. The "it's not against the TOS" claim is a defense against people attempting to force their views on others (which is, of course, the entire point of "ethics").

don't be so defensive, this matter is subjective and is open for debate
July 21st, 2017
Trinacria

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

you kind of missed the point of the experiment, but I understand that you would not change your views if supercell changed the ToS. if this is the case, it suggests that you only use the ToS to support what you already believe, but you would believe it anyway, regardless of any ToS

don't be so defensive, this matter is subjective and is open for debate

I think that SC should reinstate the sell/delete building option.

Then, everyone can engineer their bases and likelihood is most wars become a draw.

It levels the playing field with the bully engineer clans who place bases two even three levels higher than their mirror and minor.
July 21st, 2017
Chang405

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

those who engineer use this argument all the time, but I don't think that's a very good defence

Not using it as a defense. Its a statement of fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

as an experiment, let's say supercell add a rule to the ToS tomorrow saying that engineering is forbidden and they'll punish those who do it (I know this would never happen, but stay with me). If they did this, would you change your views and position about engineering overnight? I mean, just because now it's in the ToS?

Views and positions are subjective. Obeying the TOS is not subjective. While I would still enjoy having the freedom to engineer I would stop engaging in engineering over night. It would change my behavior because I don't need my villages to be banned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

my point is, people should be able to decide what's right or wrong regardless of any written rule, I mean, we're intelligent people, are we not?

Right and wrong is subjective. Ethics and a moral code is subjective. Rules and regulations are not subjective. Intelligent people disagree on many things but all abide by the same laws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

it used to be forbidden by the ToS to discuss cheating in the forums and a lot of members got banned because of this, but one day supercell decided to rethink this and allow such discussions here and just because of this, now we can talk about it, but what about all those people who had lost their accounts and got banned forever?

my point: the ToS is not everything, we should be able to think with our own heads and not depend solely on the ToS

The ToS represents the official rules. Everyone who abides by them are upholding the rules. People who uphold rules aren't exploiters or cheaters.
July 21st, 2017
DBlaze

I love threads like these. I can't wait to see what changes are being made to counteract the advantage engineered bases receive lol. But in all seriousness, those who engineer wouldn't do it if there was no advantages to it. Only reason why it's done is to trick the mm and give themselves an advantage. Kinda sounds like exploiting to me. But my issue is not with the players who choose to do it. My issue is with the mm that allows these players to do it
July 21st, 2017
strandwolfza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chang405

Not using it as a defense. Its a statement of fact.

Views and positions are subjective. Obeying the TOS is not subjective. While I would still enjoy having the freedom to engineer I would stop engaging in engineering over night. It would change my behavior because I don't need my villages to be banned.

Right and wrong is subjective. Ethics and a moral code is subjective. Rules and regulations are not subjective. Intelligent people disagree on many things but all abide by the same laws.

The ToS represents the official rules. Everyone who abides by them are upholding the rules. People who uphold rules aren't exploiters or cheaters.

ok, you have interesting points and I respect them

but even things that are subjective should be debated. just because an answer is hard to get, it doesn't mean that we can't get it

"is engineering right or wrong?"

we can discuss this, but the point of my previous post was that the ToS was not a good source to base our positions to this question
July 21st, 2017
Lunaticfringe

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

those who engineer use this argument all the time, but I don't think that's a very good defence

as an experiment, let's say supercell add a rule to the ToS tomorrow saying that engineering is forbidden and they'll punish those who do it (I know this would never happen, but stay with me). If they did this, would you change your views and position about engineering overnight? I mean, just because now it's in the ToS?

my point is, people should be able to decide what's right or wrong regardless of any written rule, I mean, we're intelligent people, are we not?

my point: the ToS is not everything, we should be able to think with our own heads and not depend solely on the ToS

YES.

The entire idea is flawed in that it posits that acceptable behavior is linked to violating TOS or not, which is not necessarily the standard that many/most people have. The TOS isn't everything and shouldn't necessarily be the standard for acceptable behavior.

Unlike many in this thread, I actually DO often have an issue with the people who make a conscious decision to significantly manipulate the MM to gain an edge in war.

My clan's experience is that engineers execute this strategy to cover up terrible attacking skills. Note, before anyone steps in and tries to equate what I said to all engineers, I specifically said, "My clan's experience," which is just one data point, not necessarily intended to be extrapolated across the entire population.

In any case, the frustration I/my clan have with these actual players is that they often are undermine the effort myself/my clan put into the game to attack well. We put a lot of time & effort into the game to do well, both planning, as well as just playing the game, trying to perfect how to attack a near unlimited number of bases, at various TH levels.

Then, along comes some enemy clan who can't attack their way out of a paper bag and manipulates the MM to an unreasonable degree (i.e. say, the ~entire lineup is engineered) & ultimately starts 3* some of our bases because the level of bullying they get to do is head-shaking.

That can really fan the flames of frustration, as, game or not, it is actually real time we put into the game to play well and it can sometimes be undermined by people who either (1) aren't as good players and/or (2) don't put the time in we do.

Don't ever tell me this is something that is respectable.

And while SC might get some of our frustration pointed to them, much of this talk about blaming SC and not some of these players makes me puke. Instead of actually learning how to attack, putting the time in, and/or, ultimately just being good at the game (duh!), they manipulate the MM because they are either (1) unwilling to do that or (2) they are unable to do that, neither of which is a good answer

It's like solely blaming a lawyer for some nonsense lawsuit and ignoring the fact that the plaintiff has actually empowered said attorney to file this totally bogus lawsuit for nothing more than biased, stupid reasons. Yes, the system might not be perfect, but don't tell me to ignore the jerk who is actually taking bad actions.

So, no, I/my clan will still express frustration, much of it directed to the actual players.
July 21st, 2017
Chang405

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

ok, you have interesting points and I respect them

but even things that are subjective should be debated. just because an answer is hard to get, it doesn't mean that we can't get it

"is engineering right or wrong?"

we can discuss this, but the point of my previous post was that the ToS was not a good source to base our positions to this question

I have never stated, in this thread or elsewhere that the pros and cons of engineering cannot be discussed or debated!

My sentence which you originally quoted was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chang405

There is a key difference. Using mods was against TOS (the official rules).

If a professor allows open book exams, a student who uses his notes during the exam cannot be accused of using exploits.

Where the original poster was attempting to equate the use of mods to engineering.

One can discuss and debate engineering without attempting to baseless accuse the engineer of being an exploiter and cheater.
July 21st, 2017
Mat5592

Quote:

Originally Posted by littledoctor

I'd probably quit playing the game. Without engineering, it wouldn't be fun. I play strategy games to strategize.

You are free to decide that engineering is wrong for you. The "it's not against the TOS" claim is a defense against people attempting to force their views on others (which is, of course, the entire point of "ethics").

You play strategy games to strategize? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Okay then, set up even friendly wars and use your strategy in attacking and defending. Let's see your strategy.
July 21st, 2017
Gorbash098

I wonder how much effort it would be for SC to put the engineered clans in one pool so that they only encounter other engineered clans. It follows then that non-engineered clans will be in a pool separated from engineers.

An engineered clan will be defined as having one or more member (in war) that has defenses less than the maxed of the previous TH level. Ofc allowances will be made for the new defenses that can be added once the a TH is upgraded.

I do not know how feasible this would be. For example, how difficult would this be to implement and how it would affect the length of getting a match in war.
July 21st, 2017
ClasherClash443

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorbash098

I wonder how much effort it would be for SC to put the engineered clans in one pool so that they only encounter other engineered clans. It follows then that non-engineered clans will be in a pool separated from engineers.

An engineered clan will be defined as having one or more member (in war) that has defenses less than the maxed of the previous TH level. Ofc allowances will be made for the new defenses that can be added once the a TH is upgraded.

I do not know how feasible this would be. For example, how difficult would this be to implement and how it would affect the length of getting a match in war.

Not too feasible. There are tons of casual clans that unknowingly put rushed bases into their war lineups or maybe it's a family clan and they put anyone in that wants to be in

Matching those casual people with engineers would probably make engineering even more popular and end up frustrating a lot of clans that don't have access to the information that more hardcore clans have access to.
July 21st, 2017
Chang405

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorbash098

I wonder how much effort it would be for SC to put the engineered clans in one pool so that they only encounter other engineered clans. It follows then that non-engineered clans will be in a pool separated from engineers.

An engineered clan will be defined as having one or more member (in war) that has defenses less than the maxed of the previous TH level. Ofc allowances will be made for the new defenses that can be added once the a TH is upgraded.

I do not know how feasible this would be. For example, how difficult would this be to implement and how it would affect the length of getting a match in war.

Engineers are already being matched to each other (and it has been the case for months). My clan faces other engineers over 90% of the time. But because the matchmaker isn't perfect some engineered clans do match up to regular clans.
July 21st, 2017
Gorbash098

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

Not too feasible. There are tons of casual clans that unknowingly put rushed bases into their war lineups or maybe it's a family clan and they put anyone in that wants to be in

Matching those casual people with engineers would probably make engineering even more popular and end up frustrating a lot of clans that don't have access to the information that more hardcore clans have access to.

So what you are stating here is that it would just not be fair to the clans that casually going to war and are unintentionally adding engineered bases. Sorry, I do not see anything in your post that says why it is not feasible only that it would not be fair.

People who are complaining about getting matched up with engineered clans are the ones that are more serious about going to war. Therefore these people will be careful not to include (in war) those bases that are engineered unless they want to face other engineered clans.

For those casual players, I believe that if SC announces that they will be put in the engineered pool if they include an engineered base then they have been forewarned and should be careful who they take to war. I do not think that this feature should be implemented without any announcements.

I am not saying that clans will be put in the engineered pool but simply having an engineered base in their clan only the ones that are included in war. This can be determined after the war search button is clicked.
July 21st, 2017
HaveANiceDay

First of all, i am not into war. I am not that invested in clan wars. But when you have a mode in which it is based on PvP or clan versus clan, for every clan winning, another clan has to lose. Assuming that draws are rare, this means about 50% of clan wars leads into a loss. A loss is disheartening. The mood of the clan changes. Some leave the clan. so on and so forth. At the same time, there is nothing more beautiful than getting matched with a very weak clan. I know some clans love the "challenge", but i suspect that most clans love the easy win. There is a big reward for winning and nothing beats an easy win. In addition to this, many clans hate clan wars. Most clans i met before introducing the perks were set to never or rarely. After the clan perks update, they had no choice. They had to war all time to get clan perks. Given all of this, there are some firm conclusions we can draw:

a) No wonder there is so much frustration and anger about clan wars. Somebody has to lose in order for others to win

B) no wonder there are engineers. And there will always be engineers

c) there will never be perfect matchmaking. It will always favor a group of people. And it will never change the percentage of who wins and who loses.

That is the reason i prefer a mode in which clans play against AI instead of other clans. Something like an operation in boom beach. If a mode like this is introduced in the main village, that also generates XP to the clan, i suspect the majority of clan will abandone clan wars for it. That is the real solution.
July 21st, 2017
Gorbash098

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chang405

Engineers are already being matched to each other (and it has been the case for months). My clan faces other engineers over 90% of the time. But because the matchmaker isn't perfect some engineered clans do match up to regular clans.

Yes, it is currently not perfect but wouldn't having a separate pool make it less likely that non-engineered clans would encounter engineered ones?
July 21st, 2017
Chang405

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorbash098

Yes, it is currently not perfect but wouldn't having a separate pool make it less likely that non-engineered clans would encounter engineered ones?

Since players are not limited in how they upgrade their village there is a humongous variety of bases out there. I think the challenge will be defining what is an engineered base and what is not.
July 21st, 2017
strandwolfza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

YES.

The entire idea is flawed in that it posits that acceptable behavior is linked to violating TOS or not, which is not necessarily the standard that many/most people have. The TOS isn't everything and shouldn't necessarily be the standard for acceptable behavior.

Unlike many in this thread, I actually DO often have an issue with the people who make a conscious decision to significantly manipulate the MM to gain an edge in war.

My clan's experience is that engineers execute this strategy to cover up terrible attacking skills. Note, before anyone steps in and tries to equate what I said to all engineers, I specifically said, "My clan's experience," which is just one data point, not necessarily intended to be extrapolated across the entire population.

In any case, the frustration I/my clan have with these actual players is that they often are undermine the effort myself/my clan put into the game to attack well. We put a lot of time & effort into the game to do well, both planning, as well as just playing the game, trying to perfect how to attack a near unlimited number of bases, at various TH levels.

Then, along comes some enemy clan who can't attack their way out of a paper bag and manipulates the MM to an unreasonable degree (i.e. say, the ~entire lineup is engineered) & ultimately starts 3* some of our bases because the level of bullying they get to do is head-shaking.

That can really fan the flames of frustration, as, game or not, it is actually real time we put into the game to play well and it can sometimes be undermined by people who either (1) aren't as good players and/or (2) don't put the time in we do.

Don't ever tell me this is something that is respectable.

And while SC might get some of our frustration pointed to them, much of this talk about blaming SC and not some of these players makes me puke. Instead of actually learning how to attack, putting the time in, and/or, ultimately just being good at the game (duh!), they manipulate the MM because they are either (1) unwilling to do that or (2) they are unable to do that, neither of which is a good answer

It's like solely blaming a lawyer for some nonsense lawsuit and ignoring the fact that the plaintiff has actually empowered said attorney to file this totally bogus lawsuit for nothing more than biased, stupid reasons. Yes, the system might not be perfect, but don't tell me to ignore the jerk who is actually taking bad actions.

So, no, I/my clan will still express frustration, much of it directed to the actual players.

this post was excellent in my opinion

I really hope supercell does something to fix engineering, until then my clan will not war again

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