Don't Hate on Engineers

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Originally Posted by loubaby

Exactly where I am now. I never imagined I would go the 10.5 route but I did anyway because I felt like if sc was just gonna allow engineering forever then I would have to x.5 to compete. If sc nerfs engineering I'm building eagle immediately. Sad thing about it is I've been advancing with the hope of having eagle artillery since December 2015 and now that I'm finally at th11 I'm afraid to build it lol 😢

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It's an odd mentality isn't it? That adding buildings in base builder game is actually a liability. Here's to hoping!

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

Definitely.

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Actually no. Re-read your comment. It's patently false.

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

My worst performing clan is running at 79% win rate and the best is at 95%.

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Isn't it interesting that I'm complaining and my clan's performance is within spitting distance of your best clan?

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

I would expect forumers to run higher, but if you look at the regular clans on global you'll see the majority of clans with 50% or worse.

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I don't disagree that many might complain about the MM when, in reality, they just need to get better, but that doesn't justify engineering.

Maybe they just need to get better, right?

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

I wrote to someone else that I was for getting rid of th sniping. It benefited me personally, but was it good for the game? No it wasn't. That's what this is, it may be good for you, but it's not good for the game.

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Well said. What's good for the game is the ultimate goal and I struggle to understand how engineering is good for the game, especially what it has morphed into nowadays

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

But I don't think everyone truly understands war in Clash. They aren't won by attacks. Each clan has it's own performance ability. Clan A regularly hits 117 points, clan B regularly hits 119, clan B won at match.

The point of engineering is to win wars at matching, where they're won anyways.

If you match clans exactly, the war will be won by chance, 50-50.

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LOL, no, another patently false statement.

We have won many wars where we should have had our clocks cleaned. But because the enemy can't attack well...

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

Its acceptable to me and I play clash of clans too.

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Yeah, damn right.

But I didn't come out and make the insinuation that just because some action doesn't violate TOS, it's not an issue, did I?

It's not a good defense, at all, for many don't hold that out as the standard of behavior.

I further didn't come out and basically say don't hold the players accountable for their actions & just blame SC either.

"It's not my fault! The system lets me do it!"

Are you kidding me??

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

The TOS are there as an operating guide for a fake environment and I trust that its ok to do things like engineer because the creators of that world have said its ok. Nobody is harmed. Nobody is hurt in any way except a little frustration or a lot (whatever), but that doesn't matter because YOU impart that on others if you wallop them in war so I'm sure you'd agree its just something you have to get used to. Life is frustrating. Clash is frustrating. I don't want to patronise you either here I promise, not my intention.

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Thank you for being respectful.

The bottom line is that I continue to read how it's, "only a system issue" and few seem to actually hold these people accountable for their actions as well.

There is nothing wrong with not being as good as some other player. That doesn't make them a better human being or something & your life meaningless or whatever drama someone wants to come up with.

But trying to even the odds because said player might not be as good by manipulating the MM is often cheese.

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

No I am not. I am saying that you should direct more hostility toward SC because they have the power to fix this engineering issue and they choose not to. How can you want to 'puke' when people direct anger at SC? This doesn't make much sense to me. They are just as much to blame. They perpetuate the misery for thousands. Maybe even hundreds of thousands. Power carries responsibility.

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No, if I miscommunicated, my bad.

My problem is that I agree that the MM is an issue, no question, and SC deserves a smack in the head for not adjusting on a timely basis, but this thread and many people posting in it, just wipe away the actions of the players seemingly in total just because the MM allows you to do it.

That's just bull, similar to my lawyer example.

Many players are doing it simply because they aren't as good and that's where certain people should perhaps take a different course.

Like I said, it belittles the efforts and time that myself/my clan put in

Just because some system allows people to do it, doesn't make it right

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

"People are making decisions for selfish reasons". Most people make decisions based on what they find beneficial to their own life and it isn't a stretch to understand that idea. You can't expect people to make decisions based on your view of clash of clans. People are not interested if you lose your war. I think you forget this.

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No, I actually haven't forgotten anything.

Perhaps the goal of these people is screwed up. Ever consider that?

It's said, "if you would improve, compete with your superiors."

You often learn by getting your ♥♥♥♥ kicked, not only in CoC, but in RL for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

I too play clash of clans, remember so I too put time into the game. So do the players that engineer. How do you know they don't put in as much time as you? Anyway, what does it matter if they put less time in than you? Are they then less deserving of something?

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I would accept it as an axiom that an easier attack requires less planning time & skill than a harder attack.

Further, if all goes to plan in an engineered war, it often requires the enemy clan to pull off a few really hard attacks while the engineered clan doesn't have to do the same. That's time and possible stress on one side of the fence, but not the other, that is often bull

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

Player actions (deciding to engineer) has nothing to do with SC but SC are accountable because they can fix this and they don't. They should shoulder some blame in your eyes but they don't. I know why that is though.

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No, now your starting to completely misstate what I said.

I'm calling out those people who are dismissing the responsibility of the players 100%. I never, ever, said SC wasn't partially to blame as well.

As a matter of fact, READ ABOVE

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

It isn't a strawman argument. You may not have directly said you have contempt for lower-skilled attackers but its obvious. I can infer from your language. "Can't attack their way out of a paper bag". "Ultimately being good at the game (duh!)". You even called them 'bully's' which is ridiculous.

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Yes, it's a caricature of my argument that is easily defensible. That is, by definition, a strawman.

I never said I hold those players in contempt. I specifically stated I have an issue with those that have a particular mindset, nothing at all to do with their attacking skill

It doesn't help your position that you are "inferring" anything, to say nothing about what is actually in black and white.

I will quote it if you bring this up again. It's a dead issue and you're simply not right

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

So the wars are still won or lost at matching. If both war logs are open you should know who will win the war 95% of the time.

The only time a fully engineered clan loses or ties is when it has a mismatch or matches to another engineered clan.

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Patently false statements.

They might be in general, but that's not how you worded it.

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Originally Posted by strandwolfza

your lot can't, however, practice to be better at attacking and be able to defeat someone of your own size, right?

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I have done more TH10/11 attacks then every single person you have played clash with combined. I don't need my engineered clan to beat you, I need it to beat the other mega engineers.

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Originally Posted by Rst

Wouldnt it be nice if you could win without that advantage though and it was a level playing field?

What about when you lose despite your advantage - isn't it a bitter pill that a weaker clan beats you?

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I don't lose.

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Actually no. Re-read your comment. It's patently false.

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It's actually basic logic. By definition an average clan is average. They won't win more than they lose.

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Isn't it interesting that I'm complaining and my clan's performance is within spitting distance of your best clan?

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No, it's horrifying that you want to ruin the game for engineered players and this isn't even an issue for you. I guess you just want to see it all crash and burn.

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LOL, no, another patently false statement.

We have won many wars where we should have had our clocks cleaned. But because the enemy can't attack well...

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I am pretty experienced, it's obvious when you've done it enough. There may be the odd toss up, but if you can't call wars at matching that's a reflection of your own abilities.

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Yes, it's a caricature of my argument that is easily defensible. That is, by definition, a strawman.

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A tip, when you say "strawman," you might as well just come out and say you don't know what a good argument is. Most abused and misused term ever.

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Patently false statements.

They might be in general, but that's not how you worded it.

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It's not false and since you offer absolutely nothing to support your claims I'll take that to mean you cannot refute my claims. Concession by default.


I've been in something like 2,500 wars at this point. If you don't want to benefit from my experience that's cool but put a little more effort into further replies. "Lol that's false" is little more than spam. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

It's actually basic logic. By definition an average clan is average. They won't win more than they lose.

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Your statement is reproduced below:

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

At this point if you care about war you are employing engineering to one extent or another. The people who hate engineered bases and refuse to adapt are sporting 50-50 win-loss or worse.

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That is a patently false statement.

If you continue to argue this point, you are then just arguing to argue.

You've been proven wrong on this point already and, as it's worded, it will continue to be false in the future

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

No, it's horrifying that you want to ruin the game for engineered players and this isn't even an issue for you. I guess you just want to see it all crash and burn.

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What on earth are you reading?? Wow...

--Where did I say I wanted to ruin the game for engineered players?

--The fact that it isn't an issue for my clan helps remove any bias I might have, which simply strengthens the veracity of my claims

--The statement of wanting to watch it all crash and burn is so incredibly bad, I won't even reply further.

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

I am pretty experienced, it's obvious when you've done it enough. There may be the odd toss up, but if you can't call wars at matching that's a reflection of your own abilities.

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What does this mean?

I have no damn idea at matchmaking time if the enemy clan can attack well or not.

Please tell me how YOU know that....

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

A tip, when you say "strawman," you might as well just come out and say you don't know what a good argument is. Most abused and misused term ever.

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A tip, I'm pretty good with logical fallacies and could care less if strawman is the most abused and misused term ever.

If you'd like to have a debate over logical fallacies, you reach me offline and we'll go in DEEP

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

It's not false and since you offer absolutely nothing to support your claims I'll take that to mean you cannot refute my claims. Concession by default.

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Oh really?

Is this in response to your laughable awful claim that wars are won at matchmaking?

I believe you agree it's not 100% of the time, yes?

That is precisely what I was responding to, which would be utterly ridiculous to argue.

If it's the 95% claim, provide compelling evidence your statement is accurate

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Originally Posted by LittleEngine

I've been in something like 2,500 wars at this point. If you don't want to benefit from my experience that's cool but put a little more effort into further replies. "Lol that's false" is little more than spam. Thanks.

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It is patently false to say that all wars are won at matching, period.

Now, do you dispute that fact or not?

Perhaps you should put a little more effort into your your comments & word them more carefully, otherwise I very well may call you out as making patently false statements.

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Originally Posted by Chang405

The guy I was responding to wanted to set the threshold for engineer as someone who didn't max all the defenses of his previous TH. While not as extreme as your definition of maxer, it sets the bar pretty high IMO for casual players. Anyway, its not going to happen which is why I didn't want to address it initially.

I have 4 accounts, I think encouraging construction of all buildings is better ONLY if the buildings are war weighted fairly. Right now, its pretty "stupid" to build and upgrade mortars and bomb towers. The word stupid isn't directed at anyone as 3 of my accounts have a full compliment of mortars and BTs :facepalm:

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So would you consider that a TH10 base that has all of the TH9 defenses that are level 1 with maxed out troops and heroes a non-engineered base?

I am not forcing my ideas onto everyone in this forum. I put out my suggestion to a possible solution to the engineering problem so that I can see what other people think about it. However, that does not mean that I will agree with everyone that pokes holes in my suggestion. I can ask questions and counter the point.

If you think that my definition of an engineered base is too strict maybe you can offer a different definition or perhaps you can offer a different solution altogether and we can discuss that.

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Originally Posted by Gorbash098

So would you consider that a TH10 base that has all of the TH9 defenses that are level 1 with maxed out troops and heroes a non-engineered base?

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Of course that is an engineered base. But what about a TH10 base that has TH8 level mortars?

Your idea is very similar to "lets make the weight of a TH the maximum of the one right below it" which has been discussed at length on the forums and rejected over and over.

There are much better solutions that have been proposed by people such as Dorsan, Onyx and NerfedName. I don't have better solutions than them so you should check out their threads.

Our clan finds that when we match, we eagerly examine the enemy roster to see if we have a chance. We pay special attention to whether a clan has th11s with eagles at the top (we have 0 th11s, eagles or not), th10s at the top with max infernos (we have 1), AND whether they have bowlers or heavy heroes low on the roster (at the bottom). Sometimes we check out war star counts too.

Based on these items, we can put the war in about 6 buckets:
- easy (rushed opponents, weak heroes, etc) <5% of matches. These are not the most fun but fine. We can lose these if we dont deliver.
- balanced (good war, give take either war) 25%. We love these wars. This is why we play. Our skill and enemy skill will determine the victor.
- unbalanced but winnable (not engineered): perhaps we are down a few bases at the top. Our skill can win but if they play equally, we will lose: maybe 25% of wars
- unbalanced but still might win vs engineers: these wars are more discouraging. Their to players will be very tough for us (max th11 etc) while having strong engineers (typically th11 w 1 max attack style) in their teens or lower. We only win these wars if they aren't great at attacking. Our last war was like this: they failed to get all our th10s so we pulled out a % win. We commonly get perfected in these matches. 25% of wars?
- unbalanced, unwinnable vs engineers: multiple th11s, significant inferno imbalance up top with multiple th10/th11 engineers below. We fight but have no hope. 20% to 25%
- unbalanced, unwinnable vs non-engineers: plan old out matched on weight. Bummer but 3 top ranked th11s vs 0 isnt winnable. <5% of matches.

so yeah, we see matches every month we know we cant win vs non engineers, and most weeks vs engineers. I'd like to see good matches at 50% of matches.

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Originally Posted by Chang405

Of course that is an engineered base. But what about a TH10 base that has TH8 level mortars?

Your idea is very similar to "lets make the weight of a TH the maximum of the one right below it" which has been discussed at length on the forums and rejected over and over.

There are much better solutions that have been proposed by people such as Dorsan, Onyx and NerfedName. I don't have better solutions than them so you should check out their threads.

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I beg to differ, as I am not saying that in order to war you will be penalized to accept a higher war weight. What I am saying is that if you are considered to be an engineered base, then you get to war with other clans that are also engineered. There are no penalties on war weights. You are still free to build your base as you like but keep in mind that once you enter war you will face other engineered clans if you choose to engineer your base. The definition of an engineered base was presented so that the system can have a basis on which pool a particular clan should be placed during war search. The idea that I have is to possibly separate engineered clans from non-engineered clans.

Thank you for pointing out that these other forumers may have better solutions. I have not read their proposals and will attempt to find and read them.

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Please tell me how YOU know that....

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Easy peasy. Look at your own war log. The amount you score typically should be pretty obvious. Now look at the enemy. If it's less, you win. If it's more, you lose. On a more advanced level you can look at individual troop/hero levels and their best possible performance should be apparent.

I'm going to pass on everything else you wrote because it was all awful. Put effort into it next time.