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Why do you think people war with 30/30 heroes at TH9? It's not a very natural progression - for most people it requires pausing builders for a long time, and really grinding them out. People don't do that because they are trying to disadvantage themselves ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Biz
Almost all clans have criteria for which bases they accept. There's no point trying to single out some criteria over others. What we need is a MM that actually works.
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Originally Posted by JFSoul
That doesn't matter. Just because you see TH11 on the war roster and very low level GW doesn't meant it will help a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by dorsan
How many eagles do they have? Any max GWs? I think you over estimate the TH11 icon on the war roster. We've had plenty of matches like this that we have won. I've learned a long time ago that low level GW doesn't make as much of a difference as you would think and I'll be this war (JUST LIKE LAST WAR) their defenses are lagging in comparison to yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by dorsan
I'm pretty sure from the start I said your last war wasn't a mismatch and you kept insisting it was, yet you won by 4 stars (which is a lot). Blame it on attack skill or whatever but the fact is it wasn't a mismatch or you would have not been able to get 74/75 stars. You realize you only missed 1 star right?
On the other side of things we have had wars where it looked like we should win no problem but the middle bases on their end were much harder for our lower players than expected which caused our higher ups to have to drop and things didn't go so smooth.
It just irritates me when people come and complain about a mismatch before the war even starts. Come and complain after the war if it ACTUALLY turns out to be a mismatch. You can't tell me in any aspect that you were out gunned when you only missed 1 star.
Most do it because Th10 warring looks awful to them & they know they can never undo that upgrade.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
Against th9 defenses? Are you kidding me? You must be kidding, no other explanation than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
Again, what on earth are you talking about? We are not a clan of maxed th10s. You are talking about eagles and maxed wardens against a clan that doesn't even have infernos. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
What makes you think their defenses are lagging behind us? Both in last war and in current war we had lower defenses on top 10 positions. Even by SC weight system. In the current war they have 2 bases with infernos and we have 1.
I never said we will get less than 74 stars (well maybe 73 in worst case scenario). That doesn't make it a good match. The difficulty in getting those starts was much higher for our clan compared to theirs. We never had a shot at 75 stars on them, they did have a shot at 75 stars at us. We had to do our best and hope they don't know how to attack to win it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
What you are talking about is complaining about a loss, not about a mismatch. I don't care if we won or lost that war, neither do I care if we win or lose the current one. They are still both gross mismatches.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
edited to add: We are also not just talking about that lvl5+ GW, we are talking about maxed troops as well. Against th9 defenses. Yet you somehow think it's not a mismatch?
I agree with you that the warden is overrated. I think he is very important, but some take it so far here that it makes it seem even more important than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
I disagree with the suggestion that a close war or a war win means it wasn't a mismatch and I also disagree with the suggestion that you can't judge it until after the war. In fact, after the war is harder in some respects because now the view is biased by the skill of the players in the war. Prior to the war you can examine the useful power of both clans without taking their skill into account. When discussing a mismatch, that is what most here are referring to (the useful offensive and defensive power of the clans, not the skill of the players).
You have one nearly maxed TH10 in your clan. You say these guys have infernos, that's cool and all but unless we see the bases they could have under-leveled defenses everywhere else which makes it fairly easy. We have plenty of wars where the other team has TH9 defenses and infernos and our clan's lower TH levels manage just fine. Inferno is overrated these days unless it's lvl 3+ even when it's a TH9 attacking. But then again I've had plenty of experience against infernos and I know that they aren't nearly as scary as they used to be - even on my rushed TH10 account with low troops and heroes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dorsan
If that was the case it was only #2 down and it was extremely marginal based on the war weights you gave earlier. That #1 had mid TH10 defenses and a poor base layout. Easy queen walk wibo attack for anyone with a lvl 20+ queen. Honestly I would rather have my TH10 defenses near max than have mid TH10 defenses and an extra xbow. I again think you are overrating these defenses.Quote:
What makes you think their defenses are lagging behind us? Both in last war and in current war we had lower defenses on top 10 positions. Even by SC weight system. In the current war they have 2 bases with infernos and we have 1.
Just because it wasn't a good match doesn't mean it was a mismatch. Reminds me of the match we had where it was something like 7 GW to 20 GW. Still won it - doesn't mean it was a good match, doesn't mean it was a mismatchQuote:
I never said we will get less than 74 stars (well maybe 73 in worst case scenario). That doesn't make it a good match. The difficulty in getting those starts was much higher for our clan compared to theirs. We never had a shot at 75 stars on them, they did have a shot at 75 stars at us. We had to do our best and hope they don't know how to attack to win it.
I still disagree that the last war of yours was a mismatch. Been saying that since the start. I also still believe that lots of people - including you - jump to conclusions when they see TH11 icons on the war map.Quote:
What you are talking about is complaining about a loss, not about a mismatch. I don't care if we won or lost that war, neither do I care if we win or lose the current one. They are still both gross mismatches.
That's great and all but it isn't just about this. If you are able to get high stars (e.g. last war of yours) it doesn't really matter if they can't do it back. I don't care if it's a bunch of defenseless maxed TH11s from 2 to 25 and a rushed TH11 like you are seeing in this war. You will 3 star them all easy and 2 star the top guy. If they can't 3 star your top guy then what's it matter? It's not a mismatch.Quote:
edited to add: We are also not just talking about that lvl5+ GW, we are talking about maxed troops as well. Against th9 defenses. Yet you somehow think it's not a mismatch?
I see your point on this. Lots of times people jump to conclusions though. They see lvl 2 infernos along with low level point/splash defenses and think they are outmatched because they have maxed point/splash and no infernos. Infernos used to be a lot more punishing than they are these days and I get that if you don't go up against them regularly they can be scary. The fact is though that they really aren't that hard to deal with if played correctly. Low level point defenses make for AQ walk easy as pie.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
I guess not knowing anything about what the bases look like I can only assume (since that's what I did last war of dorsan's and turned out I was correct) that the TH11 bases are grossly rushed and didn't come from a max TH10. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like he is jumping to conclusions about the fairness of the matchup.
If they had low defenses and infernos, I wouldn't be here posting about it. We got plenty rushed th10 enemies with infernos and 3 star those with easy. When I come here and say it is a mismatch, you can put it in a frame and then place it on a wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
Yes I am sure you are a superb attacker that 3 stars th10 bases with mid th10 defenses, 4th x-bow and lvl 3 infernos with TH10 troops and level 20 royals, but the rest of us are living in reality. Grats on your superb skils, we don't have them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
What? The definition of the mismatch is a match that isn't good. Why am I even talking with you after this gem???Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
Good on you. It's like your opinion, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
Just because they are bad attackers doesn't mean the match was a good one. Also, if the effort they need to take out our bases doesn't match the effort we need to take out their bases, it is a mismatch. I am not sure if you realize this, but you are forcing me to repeat the same thing over and over again by posting the exact same flawed arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
And some people are just full of it. You would be a prime example. Here is our #2 vs enemy #2 in our current war.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePeskyDingo
http://i.imgur.com/0STbFnN.jpg
I am sure you will now say how easy it is to 3 star it with a th10 army and how hard it is to 3 star ours with a level 11 warden and TH11 troops.
One other thing about the whole "mismatch" and "fair war" conversation. Dorsan said it wasn't a good match because the opponent's skill level wasn't as high as their clans as they had to try harder on their attacks to get the stars.
So the question now is what makes it a good match and how does the MM system ensure that good matches are being had each war? Because clearly you are able to win even though you feel the opponent has higher offense and defense than you. So in order for the MM system to consistently create "good matches" by your definition there needs to be similar defense, similar offense and NOW you are asking it to match similar skill levels to boot?
Seems like your expectations are a bit high here. I am waiting for Darian's post about matchmaking tweaks within the next several days. Hopefully we will see some tweaks here (I do think GW level makes a difference in high end wars where the GW is lvl 15+). I suggested a month or so ago that high end GW bases need to be closer matched in order to help combat heavy engineered clans and I'm hoping a form of this is installed.
I would like to see heavily engineered clans segregated a bit more than they currently are, I'm not disagreeing that there is a problem with engineered bases, I just think that it's less of an issue than threads like this are claiming it to be.
I'm not saying I'm a superb attacker, don't put those words into my mouth. The base posted last war wasn't a hard base though and your attacker shouldn't have ever had an issue walking the healers into those air defense placements. That was just a tactical error.Quote:
Originally Posted by dorsan
So you are asking SC to match offensive/defensive weights as well as opponent attack skills? Seems a bit much.Quote:
What? The definition of the mismatch is a match that isn't good. Why am I even talking with you after this gem???
I agree that your opponent base is more difficult than your #2. What is the #1 comparison? But you realize how without you showing the actual bases and just saying TH10 v TH11 it doesn't paint the entire picture right? More information is needed otherwise it's all just hearsay.Quote:
And some people are just full of it. You would be a prime example. Here is our #2 vs enemy #2 in our current war.
http://i.imgur.com/0STbFnN.jpg
I am sure you will now say how easy it is to 3 star it with a th10 army and how hard it is to 3 star ours with a level 11 warden and TH11 troops.
Just to add balance here, a couple of months ago I posted a thread about 'Heroes v Wardens' wars, all fair matches imo.
The conclusion I came to was that there's a big difference between big 45/45/20 Max Offence TH11's and rushed TH11's with Wardens :-
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...es-v-Wardens-!