high lvl bases with low lvl defense destroying clan wars

hi,


i see a problem with people abusing the clan wars by upgrading their town hall, units and army camps, but not their defense. so a player with a lvl 11 town hall will be placed against a lvl 9 town hall but can attack with an army of a lvl 11.


i have seen this now many times and would like to ask if this will be the future of clan wars, since nobody can defeat a clan with 4 of these "pushed" bases or if the designer want to prevent them from doing so.


here are some screenshots so you can understand what i m talking about:

his base (he is number 10 in a 10v10 war):

Attachment 200837

our base (this is our number 1 in a 10v10 war):

Attachment 200838

the clan war where you can see that the number 10 easy 3stars our 1 + 2:

Attachment 200840

In the olden days, these bases were simply called "rushed" and were thought as noob. Now that these bases are turning around and destroying maxers

Adapt or perish, its that simple really

and by adapt u mean that my clan needs more "rushed" bases than the opponent to also 3star everything so we get a draw? this cant be the answer to my question.

like if the opponent is cheating, you tell me to cheat also to not lose?

Yup. It's a huge problem along with a long list of others.

They're instead focusing on this stupid update that's teh biggest ever!!

We haven't done a war in 4 months because we're sick of it!

Meanwhile I'm getting plenty of captains logs... :/

I've given up all hope. The constant pleas to fix the game have fallen on deaf ears for years. Years!

Firstly, a good thread started. I agree, High lvl ths with low level defs ( gen they max hidden teslas and bombs) to fool the opponent clan, in war. In today's war our clan is facing same problem. 15 nmbr player from opponent clan took our nmbr 1 player war base...for 3 stars...with lvl 6 dragons!.And there are 4-5 rushed th8s at bottom of the list on opponent war page lower, our th5 players got puzzled.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Adapt or perish, its that simple really

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Smh, could've did without this line Sin.

Yeahh, that is what he is saying.

My clan lost 50% of the most stabile players since enginered bases ruined clan wars, they dont even log on anymore, since they turn down on doing wars, when you can cheat the match making with enginered bases,

No fun lossing almost everytime we face a enginered clan, so they moved on to other games now, and these where players that where really active 12-16 hours every day.

If this continue after the update, i will also find something else to play, starting to lose interrest in the game, without clan wars i dont enjoy the game.

Whoah...Low defense/high offense bases...That sounds horrible. I hope it doesn't become a thing. Thank you for making us aware of this issue before it becomes a serious problem/common strategy.

If you are in a clan with only maxed out TH11 you don't have that problem. What I see however is that most of the time the maxers are not so much complaining but the people who decide to go to TH11 with 30/30 hero's. If you are a TH11 with an eagle and low hero's then you are asking for trouble.

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Originally Posted by Akirasan

I've given up all hope. The constant pleas to fix the game have fallen on deaf ears for years. Years!

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Hasn't the game only been around for 4 years or so...I really do not think it would be as successful as it is if they have been ignoring constant complaints since day 1.

To avoid this, you gotta keep your own line up very tight and as even as possible. If you don't leave a lot of room in weight then matchmaking will find you someone comparable. If you have a wide variety of ths in your own line up then you are giving mm a lot of room to match you with an engineered clan.

We face this problem all the time. Every third opponent seems to be a highly engineered clan. And defeat for us is inevitable. Supercell needs to give more weightage to troop level to decide the position of each person in the war, but I think they cant figure out the right algorithm.

Enough players/clans have complained...methinks SC has heard. Consider some of the past major imbalances....wayyyy back hogs were supreme. Nerfed. Using lightening spell to garner loot. Fixed. Isolating THs for sniping and easy shield. Fixed. Botting. Fixed.

Now engineered bases. Wouldn't surprise me if the next update addresses the issue.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

Smh, could've did without this line Sin.

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How about this instead? For the last year plus, if you wanted an advantage in random wars you should build your offense first and hold off (or just not build) specific defenses. If you chose to ignore this, you are now at a disadvantage. Acting like this is new, is like sticking your head in the sand and saying the ocean disappeared. Adapt or be at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by HFlashman

Enough players/clans have complained...methinks SC has heard. Consider some of the past major imbalances....wayyyy back hogs were supreme. Nerfed. Using lightening spell to garner loot. Fixed. Isolating THs for sniping and easy shield. Fixed. Botting. Fixed.

Now engineered bases. Wouldn't surprise me if the next update addresses the issue.

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Theyve not done a thing to combat botting.

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Originally Posted by fette

To avoid this, you gotta keep your own line up very tight and as even as possible. If you don't leave a lot of room in weight then matchmaking will find you someone comparable. If you have a wide variety of ths in your own line up then you are giving mm a lot of room to match you with an engineered clan.

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We find this to not be the magic bullet. We ran all 9 wars for a bit and still drew a couple of these clans. It's frustrating for sure

At this point we just war take the loss, get the clan points, and on to the next one.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

How about this instead? For the last year plus, if you wanted an advantage in random wars you should build your offense first and hold off (or just not build) specific defenses. If you chose to ignore this, you are now at a disadvantage. Acting like this is new, is like sticking your head in the sand and saying the ocean disappeared. Adapt or be at a disadvantage.

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Someone has to defend in wars to win.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

How about this instead? For the last year plus, if you wanted an advantage in random wars you should build your offense first and hold off (or just not build) specific defenses. If you chose to ignore this, you are now at a disadvantage. Acting like this is new, is like sticking your head in the sand and saying the ocean disappeared. Adapt or be at a disadvantage.

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Pls tell me and all the others who were already high TH's when war came out how to adapt our bases. Im sure build another base will be the answer but for me thats not a desirable option, family and work wont allow me to play multiple accts and it would take me years to build a competitive lopsided base. Any way me and the rest can just ask for a decent MM without being told NO play my way instead. Is it really such a offensive concept for people to want balanced wars that even casuals might have a chance to win? Seems some players think it is.

Since last balance update the war matchmaking algorithm has been changed and war weight is being added to engineered bases.
.5 and MiniMax are officially dead.

It is how the game played.

Freedom! Make your base any way you want. On how you want to progress.

I see nothing Unfair in it.

But, What Im pointing is, The War Matchmaking Algorithm. It is still in Progress state
But it's getting better for this current state.

Hope Clan War Matchmaking will be better and better. 😁😁

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Originally Posted by Clark11308

Pls tell me and all the others who were already high TH's when war came out how to adapt our bases. Im sure build another base will be the answer but for me thats not a desirable option, family and work wont allow me to play multiple accts and it would take me years to build a competitive lopsided base. Any way me and the rest can just ask for a decent MM without being told NO play my way instead. Is it really such a offensive concept for people to want balanced wars that even casuals might have a chance to win? Seems some players think it is.

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That's right, you don't want to put in the time or effort to make a base that is optimized for war. Instead you want SC to change things so that your base has the advantage maxers once enjoyed. This game has always rewarded people who put in more time. I'm still maxing my main base, but when I saw how things were changing I started a couple engineered bases. Adapt, etc cetera.

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Originally Posted by Onetoomany

That's right, you don't want to put in the time or effort to make a base that is optimized for war. Instead you want SC to change things so that your base has the advantage maxers once enjoyed. This game has always rewarded people who put in more time. I'm still maxing my main base, but when I saw how things were changing I started a couple engineered bases. Adapt, etc cetera.

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Lol. 90% of the engineered bases are bots. And tell me, how do you expect the maxers that once enjoyed an advantage to now "adapt"?

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

How about this instead? For the last year plus, if you wanted an advantage in random wars you should build your offense first and hold off (or just not build) specific defenses. If you chose to ignore this, you are now at a disadvantage. Acting like this is new, is like sticking your head in the sand and saying the ocean disappeared. Adapt or be at a disadvantage.

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Engineers take it to an extreme- but you SHOULD max your offense before your defense. What good is it if you have max defenses and weak heros and troops, because you spent all your time on farming gold- if you're matched perfectly against an even town hall with the same defenses, and they have stronger offense, they are going to stomp you-

the real problem is not being able to attack at the same level of your own defenses...


if you are new to the game and reading this- regardless of whatever matchmaking changes occur in this update; hear me! Upgrade Heros, troops, spells, and put gold into your walls, concentrate on offense more than defense. People don't upgrade smart- they rush through maxing all their defenses and ignore their hero's and walls and then ♥♥♥♥ and moan that it takes too long to max them, and they upgrade to the next th level too soon, and every time they go higher the size of their problem gets bigger-

when I went to TH 11 I was a maxed TH 10 first (including hero's and walls). First thing I worked on was clan castle, spell factory, hero's and walls, research first, all my gold went into walls after that until I beefed up my hero's and spells etc, then slowly I started upgrading the defenses I already had, I didn't upgrade my inferno's or build the Eagle until everything else was done-

if you go to TH11 and immediately go to level 4 inferno's and build the eagle you deserve to get stomped in war! You always need to be able to give better than you get as far as attacking.

Too ò many people take the "Three little pigs" approach and think if they build their house out of bricks they will be a badass in war.... Problem is- War is more than just defending, when your little piggy ♥♥♥ shows up at the big bad wolfs house to attack it- you're still going to get your ♥♥♥ kicked.

Oh the tears of unfathomable sadness...
https://youtu.be/48H34ukFe8g

Seeing e.g. a th11 with heros as a counterpart for a th6 is something that I just cannot consider fair. It is not a question about 'adapt or perish'. Is is faulty matchmaking. Attack power should weigh as much as defenses, or even more because, regardless of skill, attacking power is crucial for success in clan war. That is also the sole reason for engineering.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCharlie

Lol. 90% of the engineered bases are bots. And tell me, how do you expect the maxers that once enjoyed an advantage to now "adapt"?

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90%? Sorry, I don't put much faith in numbers that you just made up. I have 2 engineered accounts, no botting required, just time spent playing. And maxers can adapt by starting their own engineered accounts and spending the time to farm them up. And it doesn't make their max account useless. Max bases are still needed as anchors in an engineered clan.

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Originally Posted by Onetoomany

That's right, you don't want to put in the time or effort to make a base that is optimized for war. Instead you want SC to change things so that your base has the advantage maxers once enjoyed. This game has always rewarded people who put in more time. I'm still maxing my main base, but when I saw how things were changing I started a couple engineered bases. Adapt, etc cetera.

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I never said i want any advantage but nice try twisting my comment. Also im not the only one who has niether the time nor desire to juggle multiple accts, i would bet the majority are in this situation. So should the majority of players be damned to stuggling to compete or should we seak a MM that makes all playstyles valid and enjoyable. Im glad your able to keep making accts to adapt to the game but common sense should tell you its best if all players can enjoy the game without putting in so much effort. Again not saying give me advantage just sayin make all styles playable in all aspects of the game, or keep pushing players away, im to the point i could care less, just farming till im convinced SC has made war enjoyable for all.

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Originally Posted by Clark11308

I never said i want any advantage but nice try twisting my comment. Also im not the only one who has niether the time nor desire to juggle multiple accts, i would bet the majority are in this situation. So should the majority of players be damned to stuggling to compete or should we seak a MM that makes all playstyles valid and enjoyable. Im glad your able to keep making accts to adapt to the game but common sense should tell you its best if all players can enjoy the game without putting in so much effort. Again not saying give me advantage just sayin make all styles playable in all aspects of the game, or keep pushing players away, im to the point i could care less, just farming till im convinced SC has made war enjoyable for all.

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And this is what I'm saying. The people with engineered accounts do have the time and desire to juggle multiple accounts and this game has always rewarded the people who put in the most time and effort. What you're saying is you want to play casually and be competitive with people who play much more than you.

My clan used to get hit with the bottom base being able to hit the top two, but we started paying attention to the weights. We created a couple of minis that were low weight, but with enough offense to be able to three the equal. If you have a lot of max defense bases with low heroes, you will get unfavorable matchups. So we quit taking too many of these to war. We had a war record of about 75 and 120. We are now 226 and 180. Instead of complaining to SC, maybe try to understand the matchmaking system and make some adjustments. Fete is 100% right. Worry about what you can control. These numerous an constant whining threads get old.

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Originally Posted by Onetoomany

And this is what I'm saying. The people with engineered accounts do have the time and desire to juggle multiple accounts and this game has always rewarded the people who put in the most time and effort. What you're saying is you want to play casually and be competitive with people who play much more than you.

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FYI, Causal people spend more than active people who have time to upgrade everything manually.
Your point is everyone adapts and every war is a perfect draw...thats what you want?

If everybody in clans, start building engineered bases and finally becoming an ENGINEER/MANIPULATOR rather than a true fair player And keep building higher townhall,keeping low level defenses, upgrading to maxed troops. The war will be become a pre-fixed war !. Where we know the ENGINEERED CLANS will win for sure!.Where is the fair play policy for wars?

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Originally Posted by Onetoomany

And this is what I'm saying. The people with engineered accounts do have the time and desire to juggle multiple accounts and this game has always rewarded the people who put in the most time and effort. What you're saying is you want to play casually and be competitive with people who play much more than you.

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Let me try to clear up my stance as i partially agree with you. Yes time and effort should be rewarded. The skills you devolpe from this effort should pay dividends. I have played almost 4 years, over that time I have developed attacking and base building skills, admittedly not to the level others have but enough to be competitive in a equal match. Now take the current MM. You can easily find yourself in a say 2 to 1 warden disadvantage or worse. I dont find this advantage to be gotten with skill. Skill is something you develop with practice and something not all can equally obtain. Building defenceless accts to gain superior firepower is nothing more than knowledge not skill, anyone can build a defenceless without a heck of alot of skill, just time. Now ill ask why should any war be decided by something like this and not the true skills a clasher develops with time and effort? I personally dont feel that should ever be the deciding factor only the most "skilled" clashers should gain any real advantage. Now im not saying nerf lopsided into the ground just make it so those of us with only 1 acct but the skills to play always have a chance to win to. I feel this is a more than reasonable stance and am not sure why people find it so disagreeable.

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Originally Posted by Aakarsh1

FYI, Causal people spend more than active people who have time to upgrade everything manually.
Your point is everyone adapts and every war is a perfect draw...thats what you want?

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This is where having a few maxed anchor bases at the comes in. As always, wars are decided by the attacks on the top bases. Engineers just structure their war lineup so they have more opportunities to do well at the top of the map.

As for the spending comment, I don't see how that applies to anything in this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Oaa

hi,


i see a problem with people abusing the clan wars by upgrading their town hall, units and army camps, but not their defense. so a player with a lvl 11 town hall will be placed against a lvl 9 town hall but can attack with an army of a lvl 11.

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That's what we call an ' engineered base'.

This is a huge problem that has ruined wars but SC seems to be fine with it. The longer they wait to fix it the more painful the fix will be. However I do not see them changing anything. Engineering appears to be here to stay.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

In the olden days, these bases were simply called "rushed" and were thought as noob. Now that these bases are turning around and destroying maxers

Adapt or perish, its that simple really

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In the olden days, there were no clan wars so there was absolutely no merit whatsoever in a base like that. Seems like an accurate label, really.

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Originally Posted by Fausthammer

In the olden days, there were no clan wars so there was absolutely no merit whatsoever in a base like that. Seems like an accurate label, really.

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Rushing existed long before clan wars, it's a farming term. As for adapt or perish, I would take that recommendation with a pinch of salt. Just be wary that you may get a tough match every so often.
I'd still recommend balanced bases within a balanced roster. This has been explained further in the clan wars sub forum many times.😊

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Originally Posted by CosmicCharlie

Lol. 90% of the engineered bases are bots. And tell me, how do you expect the maxers that once enjoyed an advantage to now "adapt"?

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And 89% of internet stats are just made up. Stop pulling numbers out of the air. We have 5 engineered bases in our clan and no one uses bots. There is, however, a maxer in our clan who we strongly suspect uses a bot to farm.

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Originally Posted by Clark11308

Pls tell me and all the others who were already high TH's when war came out how to adapt our bases. Im sure build another base will be the answer but for me thats not a desirable option, family and work wont allow me to play multiple accts and it would take me years to build a competitive lopsided base. Any way me and the rest can just ask for a decent MM without being told NO play my way instead. Is it really such a offensive concept for people to want balanced wars that even casuals might have a chance to win? Seems some players think it is.

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Max your TH11 then, in a maxed TH11 clan, engineers clans become the least of your worries

Imao, there is not a single thing wrong with this. It's just another way to play the game and if it works it works... :cool:

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Max your TH11 then, in a maxed TH11 clan, engineers clans become the least of your worries

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Because maxed TH11 clans are so easy to find and join, right? :facepalm:

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Max your TH11 then, in a maxed TH11 clan, engineers clans become the least of your worries

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So, a player who isn't gemming just needs to avoid clan war until they max TH11? Several years of work just to do wars without worrying about engineers...

That's not a very helpful solution for the problems with MM.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

So, a player who isn't gemming just needs to avoid clan war until they max TH11? Several years of work just to do wars without worrying about engineers...

That's not a very helpful solution for the problems with MM.

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If you're a TH8/9, you can always convert your base to an engineered base. Even up till mid TH10, you can engineer. If you are anything more than that, then you're less than a year away from maxed TH11 anyways.

A roster of >15 mid-maxed TH11s also don't need to worry about engineers, you just need to worry about bunnies and completely maxed rosters

These threads always end up being a highly productive exchange of ideas about how to improve the game.../s

OP, as Skrags offered, head here for a multitude of similar threads and GL! Clan Wars

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Adapt or be at a disadvantage.

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Or laugh all the way to the bank when Supercell culls engineering.

That is the worst thing in Coc... which ruins entire fun and curiosity in wars... but this problem is discussed from an year ago in tge threads but supercell never care about it... we dont even expect that in future updates.. if we ???? Supercell staff or moderators

I agree OP instead of this stupid update they should focus on fixing the war matching cuz it's getting ridiculous like our th8's vs th11's with lvl +20 heroes and amost max troops.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

Or laugh all the way to the bank when Supercell culls engineering.

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I have been expecting this to happen gradually rather than all at once but as I keep saying as each update approaches, let's see what the next update brings and then smart people (engineers or otherwise) will adapt...

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Originally Posted by Denton

I have been expecting this to happen gradually rather than all at once but as I keep saying as each update approaches, let's see what the next update brings and then smart people (engineers or otherwise) will adapt...

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I agree people will adapt. I however do not believe Supercell wants or endorses extreme engineering (think d-less or the such). So when I see the adapt or quit remarks I just smh. It's basically telling people to start an engineered account without knowing if or when Supercell is going to bring the hammer. I lean more towards the when side than the if side. I'm not about to tell someone to waste even more time. It's just going to make them quit when they realize what's being done.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

I agree people will adapt. I however do not believe Supercell wants or endorses extreme engineering (think d-less or the such). So when I see the adapt or quit remarks I just smh. It's basically telling people to start an engineered account without knowing if or when Supercell is going to bring the hammer. I lean more towards the when side than the if side. I'm not about to tell someone to waste even more time. It's just going to make them quit when they realize what's being done.

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for lopsided they seam semi nerfed already, and supercell have all but said more is coming, or have I missed something?

One year ago I thought the same thing. But one year later the evidence doesn't seem to back this assertion. The speed at which my clan gets a war match has not changed and the matchups haven't gotten noticeably worse. If clan wars are being destroyed and people are quitting en mass, the effects should be evident by now, especially for clans like mine that war back to back.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

I agree people will adapt. I however do not believe Supercell wants or endorses extreme engineering (think d-less or the such). So when I see the adapt or quit remarks I just smh. It's basically telling people to start an engineered account without knowing if or when Supercell is going to bring the hammer. I lean more towards the when side than the if side. I'm not about to tell someone to waste even more time. It's just going to make them quit when they realize what's being done.

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I never said adapt or quit. I said you have had a year plus (if you were not a maxed th11) to adapt your base building. If you haven't the engineers have been laughing all the way to the bank.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

I agree people will adapt. I however do not believe Supercell wants or endorses extreme engineering (think d-less or the such). So when I see the adapt or quit remarks I just smh. It's basically telling people to start an engineered account without knowing if or when Supercell is going to bring the hammer. I lean more towards the when side than the if side. I'm not about to tell someone to waste even more time. It's just going to make them quit when they realize what's being done.

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As usual, a very reasonable response and approach Chris. I don't believe that SC wants extreme disparity in the O to D ratio but I still see plenty of these bases when farming on my lower TH's in G/S so I think that some people are adapting to the current game play but of course we have no way of knowing how pervasive it really is...

I completely agree that, just like the end of TH sniping, if SC really punishes extreme engineering, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The only question is whether it will be on public display here in the forums or reserved for the privacy of the owners' clans!

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

for lopsided they seam semi nerfed already, and supercell have all but said more is coming, or have I missed something?

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It all depends on the clan's war roster and war size as to the effect IME...

I am expecting more with each update until there is better balance and more fair wars for the broader masses on which this game relies...

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Originally Posted by Jonainkb

I agree OP instead of this stupid update they should focus on fixing the war matching cuz it's getting ridiculous like our th8's vs th11's with lvl +20 heroes and amost max troops.

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You're completely right about this. If I was to choose between a new update and a better war matchup, I would go for the latter.

Some of the people in my clan started to evolve and become a bit engineered in the form of a .5 base, but sometimes we have ludicrous war arrangements of for instance having our #4 base being destroyed by their #23 base. We cannot compete with that so we have decided to avoid the Chinese clans because they tend to be heavily engineered

But better war matchmaking algorithms would definitely be worth it. Or SC being clear with the war weight

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Originally Posted by Denton

As usual, a very reasonable response and approach Chris. I don't believe that SC wants extreme disparity in the O to D ratio but I still see plenty of these bases when farming on my lower TH's in G/S so I think that some people are adapting to the current game play but of course we have no way of knowing how pervasive it really is...

I completely agree that, just like the end of TH sniping, if SC really punishes extreme engineering, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The only question is whether it will be on public display here in the forums or reserved for the privacy of the owners' clans!



It all depends on the clan's war roster and war size as to the effect IME...

I am expecting more with each update until there is better balance and more fair wars for the broader masses on which this game relies...

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Funny timing. I was thinking about posting, if they do nerf completely engineering, I would drop defenses and adjust. I wouldn't continually lose wars and post on a forum how unfair my wars are.

It does need to be fixed. Its getting out of hand now.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Funny timing. I was thinking about posting, if they do nerf completely engineering, I would drop defenses and adjust. I wouldn't continually lose wars and post on a forum how unfair my wars are.

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And if your base was already maxed then you'd just unbuild the defenses right? :facepalm:

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Originally Posted by nullandvoid

And if your base was already maxed then you'd just unbuild the defenses right? :facepalm:

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5 posts up I said unless you were a max th11 a year plus ago. If you were a maxed th11 then you are correct you have been at a disadvantage in random wars if you war with a mixed lineup. If you were anything other than maxed then my comments stand.

That 1.1 base is SO BEAUTIFUL, pure th11 Defenselss, lol, that is very hard to do... I'd love to have one myself, if SC doesn't change War Matchmaking.

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Originally Posted by LuisToClash

That 1.1 base is SO BEAUTIFUL, pure th11 Defenselss, lol, that is very hard to do... I'd love to have one myself, if SC doesn't change War Matchmaking.

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Its not hard to do, you just turn on your farming bot and wait.

Here is our latest match, would be interesting to see the reasoning of the matchmaker to facilitate this match up.

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...eresting-match

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

5 posts up I said unless you were a max th11 a year plus ago. If you were a maxed th11 then you are correct you have been at a disadvantage in random wars if you war with a mixed lineup. If you were anything other than maxed then my comments stand.

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OK, so just to be clear...

1. The only people within reason to complain about engineering are those who missed the opportunity to do it.

2. For everyone else, instead of complaining about a problem, it's better to just become a part of it, right?

Great advice. :):thumbsup:

People need to stop complaining about it and either build there own war acc or stop crying about it. They r not cheating by building these acc only doing what any of us could do as well, sink or swim !

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Originally Posted by nullandvoid

OK, so just to be clear...

1. The only people within reason to complain about engineering are those who missed the opportunity to do it.

2. For everyone else, instead of complaining about a problem, it's better to just become a part of it, right?

Great advice. :):thumbsup:

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If I was unclear, apologies. Here is my summary attempt to be clear, and these are my opinions and some facts.

Fact: the mm algorithm Changes and for more than a year, it has benefitted people who are lopsided offensively.
Fact: engineering is a consequence of the above.
Fact: if you were a maxed th11, you cannot adjust your base, your only option is another account
Opinion: you should either complain about the mm (not engineering) or adapt.
Fact/Opinion: Complaints about engineering has accomplished nothing.
Opinion: If you didn't make adjustments, you were not playing smart
Opinion: SC wants a game that has pre-war strategy a component of overall success in random clan wars.
Opinion/fact: pre-war strategy probably plays too much of a role currently.
Fact: if you want perfectly balanced wars you can have friendly wars or join a CWL league.

Fact: no one except SC has data as to how much of a factor this is overall. And they are the only ones who can adjust this, or state their position as to what they want.

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Originally Posted by BigBuffA

People need to stop complaining about it and either build there own war acc or stop crying about it. They r not cheating by building these acc only doing what any of us could do as well, sink or swim !

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You're not cheating against the rules. However, it IS cheating casual clans out of fair matches. You're confusing asking for a change with crying. No one is crying, I assure you. No one cries after they've lost the war to a clan of engineers. They get frustrated, come here and ask for change and debate even playing the game. Does that sound healthy for the longevity of the app? You're only calling it crying because you fear that change.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

If you're a TH8/9, you can always convert your base to an engineered base. Even up till mid TH10, you can engineer. If you are anything more than that, then you're less than a year away from maxed TH11 anyways.

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Put yourself in the shoes of someone who just wants to play on one account that can attack & defend at it's actual TH level, both in war & PvP. I'd guess there are vanishingly few heavily lopsided accounts that are the only account anyone plays.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Opinion: SC wants a game that has pre-war strategy a component of overall success in random clan wars.
Opinion/fact: pre-war strategy probably plays too much of a role currently.
Fact: if you want perfectly balanced wars you can have friendly wars or join a CWL league.

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Not every clan is willing or able to do CWL & arranged wars. There needs to be some leeway to allow people to make choices in base progression, but hyper optimized war bases should never have been a thing. Few people want to go back to the system that gave maxxers almost the same advantage as engineers, but the longer SC puts off eliminating the advantage of heavy engineering, the more people jump on the bandwagon. It's going to take serious change to break the cycle.

I had a recent exchange with SC support about a blatantly ridiculous matchup. The last line read, "We are actively looking for a way to prevent this loophole being exploited in a manner that doesn't affect game dynamics."

After a lot of conversation & analysis by some very smart folks here, my opinion is that means one of two things: MM will be changed so heavy offensive lopsiding is as disadvantageous as defensive lopsiding, or clans with a lineup that is way off of the typical clan roster simply won't be granted a match. I don't see the half measures they've done so far being anywhere near sufficient to send the message needed.

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Originally Posted by Wells549

My clan used to get hit with the bottom base being able to hit the top two, but we started paying attention to the weights. We created a couple of minis that were low weight, but with enough offense to be able to three the equal. If you have a lot of max defense bases with low heroes, you will get unfavorable matchups. So we quit taking too many of these to war. We had a war record of about 75 and 120. We are now 226 and 180. Instead of complaining to SC, maybe try to understand the matchmaking system and make some adjustments. Fete is 100% right. Worry about what you can control. These numerous an constant whining threads get old.

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You are right, of course. However most of us want to strategize in regards to the game and things such as troops, defenses and tactics. Unfortunately it seems in war right now much of it is simply about gaming the matchmaking system. That is wrong or at best not optimal. Surely it can be improved upon?

My clan just got matched with a bunch of th10 and th11 when most in our clan are th8 or th9. It is so bad that I see it being suggested now that no one does any attacks at all for this war because it is seen as pointless. I'm just a spectator nd red as I am maxing my hero but I read this today.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

Not every clan is willing or able to do CWL & arranged wars.

I had a recent exchange with SC support about a blatantly ridiculous matchup. The last line read, "We are actively looking for a way to prevent this loophole being exploited in a manner that doesn't affect game dynamics."

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Agree on CWL being an imperfect substitute. Many rules, tough competition, still doesn't get you away from modders. But as to the "SC support" part I know you've been around a while Tuk, you should know that's a third party company called 'teleperformance' doing support. You're hearing from someone with less knowledge of the game than you, and zero inside information, who's job it is to placate you.

There's a reason you're not supposed to repost anything you get out of "SC" support. Its because they don't speak for SC on anything that isn't easily adjudicated by them (offensive name for example).

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

Or laugh all the way to the bank when Supercell culls engineering.

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Supercell actually can't stop engineering, because engineering is just building your base according to whatever the current best strategy is. If supercell somehow makes it so that what's optimal is for offense and defense to be perfectly balanced, then engineers will perfectly balance their offense and defense. There will always be some strategies that are better than others, because this is a strategy game.

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Originally Posted by nullandvoid

Because maxed TH11 clans are so easy to find and join, right? :facepalm:

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For maxed TH11, yeah.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

You're not cheating against the rules. However, it IS cheating casual clans out of fair matches.

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Kind of like how you cheat your target out of a fair match, every single attack that you make in multiplayer?

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Supercell actually can't stop engineering, because engineering is just building your base according to whatever the current best strategy is.

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Engineering aka Lopsided...more particularly the extreme advantage it carries. Of course we all engineering our accounts. Supercell has already stated they want to limit the advantage. They just have to figure out a way without breaking the entire game.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Kind of like how you cheat your target out of a fair match, every single attack that you make in multiplayer?

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You have an option on who you attack. Once a war search is locked in you're stuck with the opponents. Big difference, quite frankly, I don't see how you're relating the two.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Kind of like how you cheat your target out of a fair match, every single attack that you make in multiplayer?

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Not at all similar, no, as in multiplayer there is nothing parallel to engineering that one can do to deliberately try to bring it about that you pull a soft opponent when the clouds part.

The nearest thing would be sitting low in trophies where weaker bases tend to cluster, but that's a trade off with loot and bonuses made with an eye to loot profit, not a deliberate attempt to find weak opponents to 3 star for bragging rights (if you're down there you don't want to 3 star when you could instead quit early so as to high 2 star and so need drop fewer trophies later to stay in your chosen loot hunting ground).

In multiplayer we all go into defences (and have to take defences) mostly knowing it likely we will lose (and are happy when instead it turns out we defend) whereas war is an optional activity that one goes into wanting to win. And there's no "next" button in war.

Your definition of "engineering" is not going to help have a clear discussion on the topic, as it's too broad as compared to the "lopsided offence" idea that is meant by many others (including many against it) and by Supercell. "Building your base according to what the current best strategy is" does not clearly differentiate the cases of smart building/development for war performance from building in a way that seeks to affect the very process of matchmaking itself so as to deliver softer opponents than one otherwise would have been given. That last is engineering, the first is not.

This is just my opinion...
Matchmaker is system and players are human...
I believe however the system be changed there are(some) players who try to discover another way to exploiting the system(gaining advantage)...and it was a human nature
I think the best thing to do is adaptation to survive

#sorry for bad english
#"adaptation" i mean here is not only by engineering

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Funny timing. I was thinking about posting, if they do nerf completely engineering, I would drop defenses and adjust. I wouldn't continually lose wars and post on a forum how unfair my wars are.

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Yeah, I suspect that smart engineers will do the same or simply abandon their low defence bases...

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

<snip>
Kind of like how you cheat your target out of a fair match, every single attack that you make in multiplayer?

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I don't want to be seen to be piling on to your fallacious argument but since the others are not engineers, I feel compelled to inform you that there is no relationship between what happens in MP and war...

We have seen this argument put forward by several engineers and like you, they are wrong...

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Originally Posted by Denton

I don't want to be seen to be piling on to your fallacious argument but since the others are not engineers, I feel compelled to inform you that there is no relationship between what happens in MP and war...

We have seen this argument put forward by several engineers and like you, they are wrong...

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as an engineer have to agree with Denton. Bringing up mp attacks or how hard it is to keep loot on a dless should not happen. I am a believer in choices. We made the choice intentionally, so we have no right to complain about our choices..

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Originally Posted by Denton

I don't want to be seen to be piling on to your fallacious argument but since the others are not engineers, I feel compelled to inform you that there is no relationship between what happens in MP and war...

We have seen this argument put forward by several engineers and like you, they are wrong...

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Well, I'm not an engineer and I think dropping trophies is identical ethically/spiritually/etc to engineering, so how you like them apples?

And don't say, "dropping trophies doesn't impact anyone else like engineering does" because you're hiding from more skilled players and more developed bases and taking from less skilled/less developed bases. I think those not able to smash you because you are hiding in the low league and those being smashed by you are impacted.

PS...I also got her number.

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Originally Posted by Denton

I don't want to be seen to be piling on to your fallacious argument but since the others are not engineers, I feel compelled to inform you that there is no relationship between what happens in MP and war...

We have seen this argument put forward by several engineers and like you, they are wrong...

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In fact, it is you who are wrong: there is a ton of relationship between what happens in MP and what happens in war:

• They both take place in the same game and are performed by the same players
• They both involve attacking
• They both bring rewards to the account
• They are both done in order to achieve some goal
• Players who enjoy one are likely to enjoy the other

The entire game is about gaining unfair advantage over opponents. We next and next until we find a base that meets our target criteria, and one of those criteria is usually "I am able to defeat this base". If you're in legends and you happen to luck across a TH9, do you hit next because it wouldn't be sporting for you to clobber him? Of course not. If you are farming and you find a dead base with full collectors and empty infernos/eagle/xbows, do you hit next because it's not an even match? Of course not.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

Not at all similar, no, as in multiplayer there is nothing parallel to engineering that one can do to deliberately try to bring it about that you pull a soft opponent when the clouds part.

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Yes there is: the next button. Hit it enough and eventually you will pull a relatively soft opponent (relative to your current trophy level and TH level).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tomville

Your definition of "engineering" is not going to help have a clear discussion on the topic, as it's too broad as compared to the "lopsided offence" idea that is meant by many others (including many against it) and by Supercell. "Building your base according to what the current best strategy is" does not clearly differentiate the cases of smart building/development for war performance from building in a way that seeks to affect the very process of matchmaking itself so as to deliver softer opponents than one otherwise would have been given. That last is engineering, the first is not.

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The first is a subset of the last. If you build smartly for war, then you get softer opponents than you otherwise would have been given.

Engineering is a broad and nuanced topic. There are many different ways to engineer, and even different goals. People complain about engineers when they match a clan that's half .5s and they complain about engineers when they see a single defenseless TH7, so the term covers a wide span of different techniques and implementation. And obviously roster engineering is a thing too. Engineering even includes full defense and minimized offense (though it seems that is not as obviously effective). Different forms of engineering have different effects on the game.

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Originally Posted by SSeleulc

Well, I'm not an engineer and I think dropping trophies is identical ethically/spiritually/etc to engineering, so how you like them apples?

And don't say, "dropping trophies doesn't impact anyone else like engineering does" because you're hiding from more skilled players and more developed bases and taking from less skilled/less developed bases. I think those not able to smash you because you are hiding in the low league and those being smashed by you are impacted.

PS...I also got her number.

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Not quite, as in deliberately trophy dropping to hang lower in a certain range you are after loot but generally spending it as fast as you get it. You go better because you're unattractive as a target, not worth attacking, while churning out fast weaker armies for looting. Rise in trophies while spending loot the same way and you reach a point where you become attractive for your trophies offered alone rather than any available loot. It's not hiding to stay lower, it's rather playing the game with a non-trophy focus, after a fast stream of farming income. Don't forget too that if you are actively managing your trophy range you'll be giving others plenty of defence wins on the way, in order to drop as many trophies as you gained. Whereas I can't recall ever having heard of engineers that deliberately give the other side a string of wins in order to keep their own win streak modestly low.

I've never understood the idea that hanging out in a lower league is somehow hiding... the point of being there isn't about soft defences but rather about profitable attacks. Who cares if you are 3 starred? You'll have it back in 1-2 raids anyway and you are deliberately holding your place there (as opposed to having drifted there) just because the ease of raiding pays off for your play style.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

as an engineer have to agree with Denton. Bringing up mp attacks or how hard it is to keep loot on a dless should not happen. I am a believer in choices. We made the choice intentionally, so we have no right to complain about our choices..

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True that; if only everyone was so willing to be held accountable...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSeleulc

Well, I'm not an engineer and I think dropping trophies is identical ethically/spiritually/etc to engineering, so how you like them apples?

And don't say, "dropping trophies doesn't impact anyone else like engineering does" because you're hiding from more skilled players and more developed bases and taking from less skilled/less developed bases. I think those not able to smash you because you are hiding in the low league and those being smashed by you are impacted.

PS...I also got her number.

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Well I hadn't thought of it from this standpoint and while see your point about choosing to drop trophies and hit weak bases but that is an individual action that has little impact to the clan and the war log so for me, it is different. I respect your opinion but the collective nature of clan wars and hiding in low leagues is still different to me...

But hey, we can go over to Harvard and talk to smart kids...

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

In fact, it is you who are wrong: there is a ton of relationship between what happens in MP and what happens in war <TL;DR snip>

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Let's agree to disagree and I will continue to side with reasonable and logical posters...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

The first is a subset of the last. If you build smartly for war, then you get softer opponents than you otherwise would have been given.

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Wrong way around, the last is a subset of the first - this is exactly what I was trying to point to as the problem. There are plenty of things you might call "smart war choices" that have nothing to do with the idea of affecting the processes of the matchmaker algorithm and are made with no concern for managing war weight in order to pull softer opponents. So, for example, the person who thinks "well archer towers defend both air and ground, so I should upgrade those before my mortars as they'll help more".

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Originally Posted by Oaa

and by adapt u mean that my clan needs more "rushed" bases than the opponent to also 3star everything so we get a draw? this cant be the answer to my question.

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Your #1 is TH10 with no infernos. What is it, if not an attempt to engineer? Sounds more like you got out-played. Better luck to you in the future, maybe Hay Day?

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Originally Posted by AdmiralAlvin

Since last balance update the war matchmaking algorithm has been changed and war weight is being added to engineered bases.
.5 and MiniMax are officially dead.

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And good luck to you too - my minimax is doing just great. In fact, I'm drawing less TH10 bases now that it's gone TH10.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCharlie

Lol. 90% of the engineered bases are bots. And tell me, how do you expect the maxers that once enjoyed an advantage to now "adapt"?

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LOL.

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Originally Posted by Onetoomany

...and this game has always rewarded the people who put in the most time and effort...

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100% this.

OP- Welcome to the forums. This topic has been highly debated and is very controversial. So expect it to get heated.
I am confident Super Cell will address this issue albeit very slowly, so hang in there.
My clan (250+ wins lvl11) has decided to stop wars until the MM is adjusted.

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Originally Posted by SmurfKick

And good luck to you too - my minimax is doing just great. In fact, I'm drawing less TH10 bases now that it's gone TH10.

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Just checked my war log to verify... 5 wars ago while my mini-max was upgrading to TH10 was the last TH10 I faced in war. The 4 wars since then have only had TH9 bases at the top. All 4 of these wars I've only had the extra spell from gemming my spell factory. I don't have any lab upgrades at TH10 finished, and Clan Castle is still upgrading as well (along with 2 army camps and a tesla).

I'm considering cancelling the upgrades since I'm sure to face more TH10s once I have valks5 finished as well as other buildings fully to TH10 level.

Post a thread on a engineer, and amazing, you got your thread heated with a 9-page discussion.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

I've never understood the idea that hanging out in a lower league is somehow hiding... the point of being there isn't about soft defences but rather about profitable attacks. Who cares if you are 3 starred? You'll have it back in 1-2 raids anyway...

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I don't think it's just me, but the same holds true for me no matter what league I play in. I find less "dead" bases in Champs, but I don't next any more often for juicy bases, and the bonus is stout. It's considerably harder to barch for loot in Champs (in my opinion) but I haven't found my builders to be idle if I didn't want them to...

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

You're not cheating against the rules. However, it IS cheating casual clans out of fair matches. You're confusing asking for a change with crying. No one is crying, I assure you. No one cries after they've lost the war to a clan of engineers. They get frustrated, come here and ask for change and debate even playing the game. Does that sound healthy for the longevity of the app? You're only calling it crying because you fear that change.

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Plenty of us call it crying because that's what it often is. It's crying to come on and complain about TH level differences in war matches, without giving any consideration to all the other actual relevant details that go into creating a war match. The perceived unfairness of matches is simply a cover for the fact that many clans out there, the vast majority I would bet, haven't the foggiest idea what they are doing when conducting a war. The clan's lineup makes a difference. The clan's skills in getting 3* makes a difference. The timing of attacks, and assigning of certain 3* attacks makes a difference. Relevant and concise scout attacks make a difference.

There are few posts here on the subject that come from those hoping to engage in debate against the proliferation of engineered bases and engineered clans that consider all these details and very few if any are willing to admit that there are players out there that are simply better than themselves. You can advocate for a change to the MM algorithm. But... but whatever changes are put in place, you're going find "mismatches" because someone out there is already thinking about how the weighting for wars works, and considering designing their bases with such in mind.

You can either choose to design your base and clan to benefit for war, or don't.

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Originally Posted by SmurfKick

Plenty of us call it crying because that's what it often is.....

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No offense, I stopped reading right there. Your opinion is it's crying. Crying envolves tears rolling out of one's eyes. No one is crying. They are complaining or asking for change. Hopefully you can tell the difference. Don't let your ego make you feel as though you've upset someone so much you've made them cry.

And if he keep this mindset and start another account, he maybe will think that he dont need mortars and will be called enginner, just because he isnt take measures to a extreme point, dosent make him less engineer.... if some base dont drop all defenses 8n day 1, he is just like a defensell account...

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

No offense, I stopped reading right there.

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That's too bad. I honestly engaged to offer you something more than you were expecting.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Agree on CWL being an imperfect substitute. Many rules, tough competition, still doesn't get you away from modders. But as to the "SC support" part I know you've been around a while Tuk, you should know that's a third party company called 'teleperformance' doing support. You're hearing from someone with less knowledge of the game than you, and zero inside information, who's job it is to placate you.

There's a reason you're not supposed to repost anything you get out of "SC" support. Its because they don't speak for SC on anything that isn't easily adjudicated by them (offensive name for example).

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I'm not surprised SC outsources game support, but they'd still be managing the 'scripts' that those agents use to respond to customers. There's a lot of truth to the goal of call centers being to mollify cranks & absorb the ire of people for whom there's no solution (Save Ming Sing Ling!), but any halfway decently run operation isn't going to let staff make up stuff. Getting anyone to give a response beyond the standard script is next to impossible. The response I got falls in line with what Lach & others have got in various dev Q&A type discussions. I think it's what SC is directing their front line people to say.

I suspect the moratorium on reposting anything from support has as much to do with not wanting the forums to be a platform for people to litigate their disagreement with the response.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

I'm not surprised SC outsources game support, but they'd still be managing the 'scripts' that those agents use to respond to customers.

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Dunno, I've seen some industrial strength insanity come out of support. SC is poor at communication, but what they do want to put out, they put out on this site or through youtube. Nothing reliable comes out of support.

Im still think this isn't a huge problem. At least it isnt THE big problem with wars, and the attitude of super cell in general.... which is all the Ch eating using mod apps and other servers etc. They bury any discussion of it on these forums, and when they are contacted about it, they do nothing. Has completely ruined wars for legit clans, that is clans not in China...

People everywhere who play the game fairly don't have any benefits to that Oaa I will agree to you on that point. My clan goes through things like that all the time.

Its definitely ok to play fair the only problem is that people have changed the way to play the game by only upgrading their offense and not their defenses.

The game is full of that and I do agree that's its not fair. In fact, my clan is fighting an engineered clan right now and they have already three starred every single one of us and like you, my clan mates cant stand it either.

Zero- #8QLCLV8Y
Clan- Wild Gang #P98QVLQ

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. Thank You and Good Luck

Faced heavily engineered last war. This war is so ridiculous i may just call it off. 17 th11 vs 5. Yeah i would say im asking for a fix.

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Originally Posted by cjsteve

Faced heavily engineered last war. This war is so ridiculous i may just call it off. 17 th11 vs 5. Yeah i would say im asking for a fix.

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Let us know the result... Our current one isn't favorable, 1 eagle/4 infernoes/5 gw attackers vs. 0/3/2. But I feel we have chances--at the very least to tie! Our guys have cleared max th11 bases before (not routinely, that would be boastful and incredibly untrue). And I've seen th11 attackers falter inexplicably.

The old age debate of engineering. It never grows old or boring for me :thumbsup:

Engineering reminds me of the old console games I would play. You can put in a code on your game pad i.e. up, up, down, right, x, x, o... or something like that! And it would unlock a boost in the game for you. The same applies to engineering, if gives you an advantage in the game, and no one can argue that.

Personally I do not engineer, just as I didn't enter the codes back in the day when I played my old consoles. I want the challenge, I want the glory, I want to be able to enter forum competitions and what not.

But...

There is nothing wrong with engineering. Best of luck to those who wish to go down this route. You find it fun to play this way, then enjoy the experience.

Right now my clan is in war. Our TH11s are not involved though. Yet the opposition has 6 TH11s. Many would complain but our clan sees it as a challenge. I would say our record is 50/50 against engineered clans and the losses are down to us most of the time. I find most engineered clans are average attackers, and so to win we need to be on point on every attack. But mistakes happen (forget to rage a hero, misplace a spell, etc) and that costs you the war.

For me, I get far more joy winning against the odds than I do from getting a 50 win war streak.

Each to their own.

We lost the last 2 wars due to engineered bases and would have lost the last 6 if the opponents didn't hop on thier clan. Every war has engineered bases now and our balance and maxed bases can't compete. A simple fix would be to prioritize Town Hall size to Town Hall size so that all TH8 bases be matched to all TH8 bases. Then apply the war weight. What this will do is force weaker bases to get stronger and grow. If those players still loose then they will simply have to get better. People who rush bases will be at a disadvantage once again.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

In the olden days, these bases were simply called "rushed" and were thought as noob. Now that these bases are turning around and destroying maxers

Adapt or perish, its that simple really

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The first response was one of the best. As the game changes, so must you. And every time the game changes, so will the best of us. The most serious gamers constantly adapt and are amongst the most skilled attackers we have seen. We respect their efforts, and are thankful of their deep pockets full of gems. For without them, so many of us could not enjoy the game for free.

We've just faced a ridiculous match up.

30vs30 war.

Us:
1 strong TH11 without Eagle
1 max TH10 w/ max infernos
1 midlevel Th10
8 TH9.5

All with good/very high hero levels, but reasonably new to TH10 and haven't yet got fully TH10 armies - hence no infernos yet.

9 TH9's - varying levels and a few TH8's, couple of TH7's and one TH4.

Them:

3 strong TH11 without Eagle's
4 max TH10 w/ max infernos
3 TH9.5
3 defenceless TH11 with near enough maxed heroes/troops
3 defenceless TH10 with good hero levels

A couple of TH9's, a few TH8's, a small number of filler TH7-TH4's.

Needles to say their defenceless TH11's at the bottom of the map were three starring our #1/2. And they got 100% on us. We predicted the result as soon as we saw the matchup.

Incredibly frustrating, and it's happening more and more regularly. We're still winning more than we lose, but these heavily engineered clans are ruining the enjoyment, and although not cheating is pushing the boundaries of fairplay. We're starting to lose a few members who have been around a long time because of it as well.

The clan we faced have won 47 of their last 50 matches, having been created late last year.

I can understand how the matchup "happened". They've chucked a few filler accounts low down, have a number of defenceless bases that match up with our TH7's, that can hide behind high level bases up top, but surely people can see this is a big issue for the game? It's match-making manipulation to the extreme, and to the detriment of a large part of the game's community.

We're not an elite clan, but we're a good clan, and we usually win when the wars look relatively even, or when we're slightly outmatched (on paper), but it's incredibly disappointing when such one sided matchups are becoming a common occurrence.