Why Engineering Will Kill Clash of Clans

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be banned.

Engineering seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can't be beaten by any amount of attacking skill. Successful engineering requires pretty good attacking skill, but it's based on the idea that the engineering clan can get easier 3 stars than the enemy.

Engineering is a dead end in the long term. Does anyone want to claim that engineers are innovating new attack strategies? Modders at least had that argument in their favor. Engineering leads to an ever more limited choice of attack strategies. I'm experiencing this firsthand with my lopsided TH9. It's very effective with one strat, but I have no incentive to diversify.

Engineering left unchecked will result in every clan having a few TH11 anchors & a whole bunch of 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts that are not challenging on defense. The really talented attackers have no interest in that type of war. It's a dead end that few people will want to participate in. It will utterly destroy innovation & the richness of the game. It completely excludes anyone who is trying to balance farming & warring, while upgrading their account. It will drive any newcomers out of the war scene. Eventually, it will kill the game.

There's a whole lot of room to allow some leeway for optimizing your base & your clan roster, but SC needs to admit they created a mess with the March 2016 MM update & start putting much stronger checks on extreme lopsiding NOW. Anyone who wants to build an extremely lopsided base for the fun of it can still do so. But, they should expect that style of play to be as serious a disadvantage in war in war as putting defense way ahead of offense.

While you could put forth an argument that engineering will kill clan wars, I think you are stretching when you claim engineering will destroy an entire game.

What's the percentage of players who are only playing this game for the clan war aspect? Only Supercell knows the answer to that question but I would guess its not a majority of players. In my clan, half the active players only play this game in multiplayer farming mode and have permanently opted out of wars. They didn't do so because they were sick of facing engineered bases. Rather, war had become too complicated for them at the Th9 and above level.

Lets wait and see what the soon to be released "massive" update will bring before proclaiming the death of the game due to clan war engineers.

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Originally Posted by Chang405

What's the percentage of players who are only playing this game for the clan war aspect? Only Supercell knows the answer to that question but I would guess its not a majority of players.

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How many clans out there don't do war & don't push trophies? I suspect, very, very few. Maybe I'm wrong & it's a silent majority, but even if I am, I doubt that group of players provides much revenue, which is at the end of the day what the game is all about.

I don't expect the update will replace clan wars. The TH11s who can't stomach the clouds in Legends are in as dire need of a fix as the war oriented players.

Engineering, in it's various guises, has existed for a long long time.

Back in September 2016, SC published it's 'Design Values' :-
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-Design-Values

Often brushed over, treated as waffle, this statement actually contained insight into the Development team's thought process, such as :-
"being easy to pick up and challenging to master"

Of course, there's ambiguity and subjectiveness here, but the rhetoric has always been fairly constant along the lines of, enabling the mass market to pick up, play, and enjoy the game, while allowing challenging high level game play.

So when the volume casual players, are demotivated to play, then there's a problem.

The March 2016 update notably led to a significant increase in engineered bases. They are easy to build and understand. Once the volume of such bases/clans starts to regularly effect the casual playing market, then the game as a whole starts to suffer.

It's not the engineers fault, but the SC tool that allows this frailty in matchmaking.

Back in July last year, Billius made a thread about the future of clan wars being polarised into Engineer wars and Farm wars, if nothing was done :-
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-and-Farm-Wars

I would suggest that even the most ardent/hardcore engineer would recognise, that mass engineering is not good for the game as a whole, because it will demotivate the average player from competing in clan wars.

Arguably, we are seeing small changes being gradually made to matchmaking, to lessen the advantage of engineering (well certainly lop sided bases), and I would expect this to continue.

To re-iterate however, the buck stops with SC, I don't blame the engineers.:)

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be banned.

Engineering seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can't be beaten by any amount of attacking skill. Successful engineering requires pretty good attacking skill, but it's based on the idea that the engineering clan can get easier 3 stars than the enemy.

Engineering is a dead end in the long term. Does anyone want to claim that engineers are innovating new attack strategies? Modders at least had that argument in their favor. Engineering leads to an ever more limited choice of attack strategies. I'm experiencing this firsthand with my lopsided TH9. It's very effective with one strat, but I have no incentive to diversify.

Engineering left unchecked will result in every clan having a few TH11 anchors & a whole bunch of 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts that are not challenging on defense. The really talented attackers have no interest in that type of war. It's a dead end that few people will want to participate in. It will utterly destroy innovation & the richness of the game. It completely excludes anyone who is trying to balance farming & warring, while upgrading their account. It will drive any newcomers out of the war scene. Eventually, it will kill the game.

There's a whole lot of room to allow some leeway for optimizing your base & your clan roster, but SC needs to admit they created a mess with the March 2016 MM update & start putting much stronger checks on extreme lopsiding NOW. Anyone who wants to build an extremely lopsided base for the fun of it can still do so. But, they should expect that style of play to be as serious a disadvantage in war in war as putting defense way ahead of offense.

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I agree with this, with the exception of the word "banned"... it should rather, I think, be bought to an end the way th sniping was - an in game mechanics change that renders that lopsided advantage playstyle moot.

Of course it will kill the clash of clan game if you understand what a fair game is.
A fair game is very important if it is not there then this game will end.
The question is what is the base of engeneering with it? Of course there is a relationship, engineering base is made with the aim to get an easy opponent, for those who practice this is certainly not a problem but what about those who play normally, of course unfair.
Then how sincere? It is easy to never involve engineering base to participate in the war.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Engineering, in it's various guises, has existed for a long long time.

Back in September 2016, SC published it's 'Design Values' :-
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-Design-Values

Often brushed over, treated as waffle, this statement actually contained insight into the Development team's thought process, such as :-
"being easy to pick up and challenging to master"

Of course, there's ambiguity and subjectiveness here, but the rhetoric has always been fairly constant along the lines of, enabling the mass market to pick up, play, and enjoy the game, while allowing challenging high level game play.

So when the volume casual players, are demotivated to play, then there's a problem.

The March 2016 update notably led to a significant increase in engineered bases. They are easy to build and understand. Once the volume of such bases/clans starts to regularly effect the casual playing market, then the game as a whole starts to suffer.

It's not the engineers fault, but the SC tool that allows this frailty in matchmaking.

Back in July last year, Billius made a thread about the future of clan wars being polarised into Engineer wars and Farm wars, if nothing was done :-
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-and-Farm-Wars

I would suggest that even the most ardent/hardcore engineer would recognise, that mass engineering is not good for the game as a whole, because it will demotivate the average player from competing in clan wars.

Arguably, we are seeing small changes being gradually made to matchmaking, to lessen the advantage of engineering (well certainly lop sided bases), and I would expect this to continue.

To re-iterate however, the buck stops with SC, I don't blame the engineers.:)

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If I could award you 10 rep points for this post I would, spot on.

would accept 10 docates instead?

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be strongly nerfed.

Engineering seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can't be beaten by any amount of attacking skill. Successful engineering requires pretty good attacking skill, but it's based on the idea that the engineering clan can get easier 3 stars than the enemy.

Engineering is a dead end in the long term. Does anyone want to claim that engineers are innovating new attack strategies? Modders at least had that argument in their favor. Engineering leads to an ever more limited choice of attack strategies. I'm experiencing this firsthand with my lopsided TH9. It's very effective with one strat, but I have no incentive to diversify.

Engineering left unchecked will result in every clan having a few TH11 anchors & a whole bunch of 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts that are not challenging on defense. The really talented attackers have no interest in that type of war. It's a dead end that few people will want to participate in. It will utterly destroy innovation & the richness of the game. It completely excludes anyone who is trying to balance farming & warring, while upgrading their account. It will drive any newcomers out of the war scene. Eventually, it will kill the game.

There's a whole lot of room to allow some leeway for optimizing your base & your clan roster, but SC needs to admit they created a mess with the March 2016 MM update & start putting much stronger checks on extreme lopsiding NOW. Anyone who wants to build an extremely lopsided base for the fun of it can still do so. But, they should expect that style of play to be as serious a disadvantage in war in war as putting defense way ahead of offense.

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Fixed it for you - now it's an awesome post.

Completely agree with this thread, SC failed to take on the whole engineering thing, and now its become so popular more and more people are trying it, if you cant beat them join them.

I still maintain engineering is mainly for the poorer attackers who are essentially putting out dip attacks in war to get the win, others will argue its not the case but thats definately what i see.

In all honesty if they simply weighted the warden heavier at the moment, i feel like it would solve a lot of problems, but it definately wouldn't be a long term fix.

Either way I feel like the majority of players are only around for clan wars, and engineering will eventually be the nail in the coffin if this keeps up.

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

If I could award you 10 rep points for this post I would, spot on.

would accept 10 docates instead?

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Doctates are more than acceptable, thanks for your kindness. Just no cat biscuits, Fette keeps sending everyone boxes of the darn things...:saywhat:

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

If I could award you 10 rep points for this post I would, spot on.

would accept 10 docates instead?

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Especially this line "To re-iterate however, the buck stops with SC, I don't blame the engineers.:)"

+1
Ten million plus ones

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be banned.

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Destroys or diminishes?

Engineering adds to the richness of the game. It provides more than one way to progress through the game. Banning engineering would decrease the richness of the game and should, by this logic, itself be banned.

One way to progress through the game is maxing. A different way is by rushing defense, the way kids do it (rush to the next TH and drop all the defenses). Engineering describes most of the other ways: sometimes minimax, sometimes defenseless, sometimes by omitting just splash, sometimes completely custom. A customized engineered base requires a customized layout for multiplayer and for war, and often a customized attack; when attacking a TH10 that mirrors a TH8 you can't necessarily just dump hogs or drags at it like you would if it was a TH8 because it might have bigger giant bombs, or powerful teslas, or a different number of airdef, or a more complex layout due to having more walls.

Bottom line: Engineering adds a large amount of variety to the game.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

Engineering seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can't be beaten by any amount of attacking skill.

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Not necessarily. That describes one subset of engineering, but not all of it. It's an incredibly broad term.

I agree with you that defenseless TH11 are not properly weighted by the current matchmaker and if the game doesn't change, some number of years from now wars with large numbers of defenseless TH11 will be common and less interesting. I predict, however, that the game will adjust in some way to compensate for defenseless TH11, and that the game will change in other ways rather than stagnate. We are on the cusp of what is supposedly a great big update that will provide a whole new play mode. Who even knows how relevant defenseless TH11 will be three weeks from now? This subset of engineering exploits a flaw in the matchmaker that needs to be fixed, and I predict that it will be.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

Does anyone want to claim that engineers are innovating new attack strategies?

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Depends what you mean by innovating. When you have constrained offense, you have to be quite innovative when planning your attack. I have a TH11 that doesn't have any dark barracks, and figuring out how to 3 star TH10 without using any more bowlers, lava hounds, etc. that I can't fit in my CC can be quite challenging. I can't just google the layout I'm attacking and copy the 3 star attack from youtube, I have to innovate my own.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be banned.

Engineering seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can't be beaten by any amount of attacking skill. Successful engineering requires pretty good attacking skill, but it's based on the idea that the engineering clan can get easier 3 stars than the enemy.

Engineering is a dead end in the long term. Does anyone want to claim that engineers are innovating new attack strategies? Modders at least had that argument in their favor. Engineering leads to an ever more limited choice of attack strategies. I'm experiencing this firsthand with my lopsided TH9. It's very effective with one strat, but I have no incentive to diversify.

Engineering left unchecked will result in every clan having a few TH11 anchors & a whole bunch of 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts that are not challenging on defense. The really talented attackers have no interest in that type of war. It's a dead end that few people will want to participate in. It will utterly destroy innovation & the richness of the game. It completely excludes anyone who is trying to balance farming & warring, while upgrading their account. It will drive any newcomers out of the war scene. Eventually, it will kill the game.

There's a whole lot of room to allow some leeway for optimizing your base & your clan roster, but SC needs to admit they created a mess with the March 2016 MM update & start putting much stronger checks on extreme lopsiding NOW. Anyone who wants to build an extremely lopsided base for the fun of it can still do so. But, they should expect that style of play to be as serious a disadvantage in war in war as putting defense way ahead of offense.

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Superb post, ChiefTuk. Completely agree with you. Saving this for reference. Thanks for sharing.

Clash on.

Really well thought out post. Hadn't really looked at it in such a dire light, but I think you are correct.

Fixed, in my opinion.

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be banned.

Maxed heroes with lvl1 cannon seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can only be beaten by a roster of full TH11s. Successful maxed heroes requires pretty good attacking skill, but it's based on the idea that the maxed heroes clan can get easier 3 stars than the enemy.

Maxed heroes with lvl1 cannon is a dead end in the long term. Does anyone want to claim that maxed heroes players are innovating new attack strategies? Modders at least had that argument in their favor. Unbalanced troop[s] leads to an ever more limited choice of attack strategies. I'm experiencing this firsthand with my lopsided TH9. It's very effective with one strat, but I have no incentive to diversify.

Maxed heroes with lvl1 cannon left unchecked will result in every clan having TH11 defense. The people who like to 3 star constantly have no interest in that type of war. It's a dead end that few people will want to participate in. It will utterly destroy innovation & the richness of the game. It completely excludes anyone who is trying to perma-base. It will drive any newcomers out of the war scene. Eventually, time will kill the game.

There's a whole lot of room to allow some leeway for optimizing your base & your clan roster, but SC needs to admit they created a mess with the March 2016 MM update & start putting much stronger checks on extreme lopsiding NOW. Anyone who wants to build an extremely lopsided base for the fun of it can still do so. But, they should expect that style of play to be as serious time-sink and/or money-sink.

I find it coincidental that engineering burst on to the scene as soon as the crackdown on modding happened(i mean when engineering grew like wildfire) Purely speculation but i would not be suprised to find that alot of extreme engineers are ex modders. Banned for modding? Oh well start over and you will have a lopsided base in few months. They still found their way to cheat people out of wars. Except this way is in no violation of TOS. I agree OP, big picture something has to be done.

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

I find it coincidental that engineering burst on to the scene as soon as the crackdown on modding happened(i mean when engineering grew like wildfire) Purely speculation but i would not be suprised to find that alot of extreme engineers are ex modders. Banned for modding? Oh well start over and you will have a lopsided base in few months. They still found their way to cheat people out of wars. Except this way is in no violation of TOS. I agree OP, big picture something has to be done.

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I don't think that timeline is accurate, but regardless I don't see a correlation between modding and Engineering. I also don't think it's good to suggest they are connected. I've seen one theory that engineering was allowed to go on for so long because it was the only counter to modders before the Psychic Octopus.

How many ways can people beat this horse!

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be banned.

Engineering seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can't be beaten by any amount of attacking skill. Successful engineering requires pretty good attacking skill, but it's based on the idea that the engineering clan can get easier 3 stars than the enemy.

Engineering is a dead end in the long term. Does anyone want to claim that engineers are innovating new attack strategies? Modders at least had that argument in their favor. Engineering leads to an ever more limited choice of attack strategies. I'm experiencing this firsthand with my lopsided TH9. It's very effective with one strat, but I have no incentive to diversify.

Engineering left unchecked will result in every clan having a few TH11 anchors & a whole bunch of 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts that are not challenging on defense. The really talented attackers have no interest in that type of war. It's a dead end that few people will want to participate in. It will utterly destroy innovation & the richness of the game. It completely excludes anyone who is trying to balance farming & warring, while upgrading their account. It will drive any newcomers out of the war scene. Eventually, it will kill the game.

There's a whole lot of room to allow some leeway for optimizing your base & your clan roster, but SC needs to admit they created a mess with the March 2016 MM update & start putting much stronger checks on extreme lopsiding NOW. Anyone who wants to build an extremely lopsided base for the fun of it can still do so. But, they should expect that style of play to be as serious a disadvantage in war in war as putting defense way ahead of offense.

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If everyone played this way yes you are right. That is what happens when everyone plays only one way. Engineering, maxing, whatever.
You are also right about modders but now we do have people doing fc and friendly wars to help create new strategies.
As far as SC admitting they did something wrong with the March 2016 update the did admit it by changing it back. Engineering was around long before that update, we were in a huge minority back then, but it worked. Now more see that it does work.
The game has evolved while I do have 1 engineered account I have moved on to balance which again i'm in the far minority but I believe is far better than engineered accounts.

+100 Docates!
Well said and thoroughly reasoned. I hope this stays on the front page as long as the 6ayMartians thread. Longer even.

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

I find it coincidental that engineering burst on to the scene as soon as the crackdown on modding happened(i mean when engineering grew like wildfire)

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Early 2015 you mean?

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

If everyone played this way yes you are right. That is what happens when everyone plays only one way. Engineering, maxing, whatever.

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Well, except that engineering isn't just one way. It's at least 3 different ways, probably more depending how you sub-categorize.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Early 2015 you mean?




Well, except that engineering isn't just one way. It's at least 3 different ways, probably more depending how you sub-categorize.

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I agree however I was told time and time again on the forums that engineering was only defenseless so I was going with their defination.
Once there is one general way to play, not sub-categorized, and most do it that is the downfall of most things.
An example I make a lot of money in the stock market however if everyone used my strategy it wouldn't work. It won't happen because many have many reasons for not. Coc is similar. Many have many reasons for not engineering therefor its downfall because of engineering is unlikely since not everyone will follow that strategy.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

I agree however I was told time and time again on the forums that engineering was only defenseless so I was going with their defination.
Once there is one general way to play, not sub-categorized, and most do it that is the downfall of most things.
An example I make a lot of money in the stock market however if everyone used my strategy it wouldn't work. It won't happen because many have many reasons for not. Coc is similar. Many have many reasons for not engineering therefor its downfall because of engineering is unlikely since not everyone will follow that strategy.

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Not sure I'm following your logic here, but what I think you are saying is Engineering (lopsided bases and roster engineering) is successful only because there are many who do NOT do it. If everyone did it, there would be no point since the primary reason to engineer is to gain an advantage in war.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

I agree however I was told time and time again on the forums that engineering was only defenseless so I was going with their defination.
Once there is one general way to play, not sub-categorized, and most do it that is the downfall of most things.
An example I make a lot of money in the stock market however if everyone used my strategy it wouldn't work. It won't happen because many have many reasons for not. Coc is similar. Many have many reasons for not engineering therefor its downfall because of engineering is unlikely since not everyone will follow that strategy.

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Maybe I misunderstand, are you saying engineers will not ruin clash because not everyone can or wants to engineer? but what if all these people who can't or don't want to engineer quit? What if new players get smashed in wars and give up after a few weeks?

or did I miss your point?

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Originally Posted by Johnnyfsullivan

If everyone did it, there would be no point since the primary reason to engineer is to gain an advantage in war.

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I don't agree with this statement. If everyone engineered the way I engineer, our wars would be fun and balanced, and I would keep doing what I'm doing. Fortunately the matchmaker for the most part succeeds in matching us against clans like that.

I engineer to make 3 star attacks. I'm probably not a good enough player to 3 star a max TH11 with CWL-quality layout even if you gave me a max TH11 to do it with (from the looks of things this also describes most CWL TH11 players), so I am reluctant to add the defenses that draw max TH11 into our wars. I could do it almost immediately on 3 accounts, but how would that possibly benefit me or my clan? My war attacks would immediately become 1-2 star attacks, even if I waited until I had max heroes first. Pointless.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

I don't agree with this statement. If everyone engineered the way I engineer, our wars would be fun and balanced, and I would keep doing what I'm doing. Fortunately the matchmaker for the most part succeeds in matching us against clans like that.

I engineer to make 3 star attacks. I'm probably not a good enough player to 3 star a max TH11 with CWL-quality layout even if you gave me a max TH11 to do it with (from the looks of things this also describes most CWL TH11 players), so I am reluctant to add the defenses that draw max TH11 into our wars. I could do it almost immediately on 3 accounts, but how would that possibly benefit me or my clan? My war attacks would immediately become 1-2 star attacks, even if I waited until I had max heroes first. Pointless.

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Thanks for responding. Disagree with your logic, but I appreciate your point of view. Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

To re-iterate however, the buck stops with SC, I don't blame the engineers.:)

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pretty much this. its kind of like, hack-a-shaq in the NBA. you do not fix it by banning shaq the player, you fix it other ways. We do not ban overpowered players, we adjust the rules after we determine we do not like the playstyle ( or, the resulting playstyle that becomes prevalent ).

for clash, TH snipe removal is the best analogy. I still assume that engineering in general is so minimal SC isnt inclined to address it. however, since it doesnt promote late game, would seem like a nerf would occur. ( The other fix for it is shortening times TH1-10 so players can more easily move past game phases where the impacts are great )

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

Maybe I misunderstand, are you saying engineers will not ruin clash because not everyone can or wants to engineer? but what if all these people who can't or don't want to engineer quit? What if new players get smashed in wars and give up after a few weeks?

or did I miss your point?

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yes you got the point. Once something goes to just 1 style it's the end of the game. So yes if new players get smashed and quit or if maxing is the only way to go and new people play for a few weeks and give up because they don't want to take years to be able to play at the top th levels. You see it works both ways.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

yes you got the point. Once something goes to just 1 style it's the end of the game. So yes if new players get smashed and quit or if maxing is the only way to go and new people play for a few weeks and give up because they don't want to take years to be able to play at the top th levels. You see it works both ways.

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This is why so many are at TH9 still... the spot in the game where there is balance. if SC adds offensive that makes th9 easier, and 10 still sucks, game is probably done as the war mechanics will be only 11v11 2* fests. you can join clash with ash in clash royale at this point.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

This is why so many are at TH9 still... the spot in the game where there is balance. if SC adds offensive that makes th9 easier, and 10 still sucks, game is probably done as the war mechanics will be only 11v11 2* fests. you can join clash with ash in clash royale at this point.

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Interesting observation...and I tend to agree with you.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

This is why so many are at TH9 still... the spot in the game where there is balance. if SC adds offensive that makes th9 easier, and 10 still sucks, game is probably done as the war mechanics will be only 11v11 2* fests. you can join clash with ash in clash royale at this point.

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and why many quit at th9. You are proving my point. Yes some choose to stay at th9 just like some choose to engineer. Many styles are needed to keep the game going. If everyone gets moved to just one style the game gets stale and dies.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

yes you got the point. Once something goes to just 1 style it's the end of the game. So yes if new players get smashed and quit or if maxing is the only way to go and new people play for a few weeks and give up because they don't want to take years to be able to play at the top th levels. You see it works both ways.

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I agree with you that not everyone will engineer. However if supercell allows the matchmaker to constantly give hyper engineered clans wars that are won before a blow is struck, this will certainly drive away casuals, maxers and anyone that doesn't have the time to create such accounts. Competitive wars are fun. I don't want parity wars, I think that will kill the game, I want wars where hard to achieve upgrades provide a slight advantage, but a skillfull clans of balanced bases, should not get smashed by a clam who have very little skill, getting more skillful will then lose its reward incentive, much like perfect parity wars remove reward system of farming.

its all about balance, I would like to see tha game 80% about skill, 20% base upgrade choices and effort. The average war should draw with a base related war win probability of 53% advantage, and with a maximum war win probability of 60% occurring in 1 in 1000 wars (probabilities assume equally skills players).

i agree there needs to be a way for new players to progress fast, but not a way for someone to create an account in 5 months that's far superior to the matchmaker than an account that takes 3 years, you must reward the right things, the things that are a challenge, to keep people farming, and you must reward skill level, and you should not allow any way for skill to be irrelevant.

for the benefit of clash, we need a matchmaker that provides almost van wars, with slight leans to maxers and .5ers, with strong troops and high heroes. But I feel that may be a topic for another thread.

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Originally Posted by Johnnyfsullivan

Interesting observation...and I tend to agree with you.

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Thanks, means a lot to me.

I know a bunch of players in this boat, most of the people I play with.

To elaborate ;

Most people are running a TH9 and a TH10/11 or some combo. a 9,10 and 11, or 2 9s, 2 10s, whatever.

If 9 becomes as easy as TH8 is with bowlers, they will do 1 of 2 things.

1. create low tier TH10s with their 9s.
2. stop playing their 9s.

None of these players want to be dip specialists, so they are not going 9.5 ( .5 is still a common phase as you farm 40/40, i am referring to perma 9.5 )

if 10v10 is broke, why would I choose option 1? I wouldnt. I already have a 10 and or 11.

So now, all these CWL break downs are gone, and a huge consolidation would be required for 10/11 30-40v wars.

maybe the future would be clash cup, 5v5 formats? with a ladder? I do not see a logical path forward. smaller clan wars isnt great for the in game community.

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

I find it coincidental that engineering burst on to the scene as soon as the crackdown on modding happened(i mean when engineering grew like wildfire) Purely speculation but i would not be suprised to find that alot of extreme engineers are ex modders. Banned for modding? Oh well start over and you will have a lopsided base in few months. They still found their way to cheat people out of wars. Except this way is in no violation of TOS. I agree OP, big picture something has to be done.

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That's just coincidence. Engineering in the simple forms like defenceless or any extreme lopsided bases didn't work until SC broke the MM badly in March 2016. It then took a few months for the craze to spread and people to build the bases - so mid to late summer was when it started becoming a visible problem for many people. Which was when SC swung the ban hammer properly IIRC.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

and why many quit at th9. You are proving my point. Yes some choose to stay at th9 just like some choose to engineer. Many styles are needed to keep the game going. If everyone gets moved to just one style the game gets stale and dies.

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idk what your point is. engineering doesnt both me. i have an engineered account. the deficient MM bothers me, and many of the deficient matches have 0 engineers on either side.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

This is why so many are at TH9 still... the spot in the game where there is balance. if SC adds offensive that makes th9 easier, and 10 still sucks, game is probably done as the war mechanics will be only 11v11 2* fests. you can join clash with ash in clash royale at this point.

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sometimes it's tempting to think th10 should get the warden till level 5, but th9 will go berserk, and 9.5 will be out of hand. Sometimes I think they should simply depower the infenoes, since most would chose a pair of infoenoes over an eagle. They could lengthen freeze spell time a little.

The problem is, which you allude to, is whatever fun new troop is brought out, it's likely to still struggle versus infenoes, while putting the hurting on th9.

9.5 is you can get matched to other 9.5 is a great townhall, as it 9.5 plus 1 inferno, if you could fight other 9.5 with 1 infeno. 10.5 is also a fun level, if you avoid drawing maxed 11 with eagle, which happens fairly often if your base is well developed. Holding thumbs anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

( The other fix for it is shortening times TH1-10 so players can more easily move past game phases where the impacts are great )

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Sooo much this, please let the update cater to this concept entirely. I'm hoping for an additional way to play the game that also rapidly speeds up progression. So many people in my clan with sub-par heroes. Only our clan leader with everything maxed (excluding walls) is not rushed, everyone else is rushed.

Perhaps TH9 feels more balanced because people with 30/30 heroes are able to reliably 3 star it more often than those with max heroes at TH10 or TH11. I don't mind TH11 being at such a difficult state, but I don't think TH10 should be as difficult as it is. I've never seen anyone 3 star a max TH10 with sub-30 heroes.

Slowly but surely I am leveling heroes: 25/22->23/18->19

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

I agree with you that not everyone will engineer. However if supercell allows the matchmaker to constantly give hyper engineered clans wars that are won before a blow is struck, this will certainly drive away casuals, maxers and anyone that doesn't have the time to create such accounts. Competitive wars are fun. I don't want parity wars, I think that will kill the game, I want wars where hard to achieve upgrades provide a slight advantage, but a skillfull clans of balanced bases, should not get smashed by a clam who have very little skill, getting more skillful will then lose its reward incentive, much like perfect parity wars remove reward system of farming.

its all about balance, I would like to see tha game 80% about skill, 20% base upgrade choices and effort. The average war should draw with a base related war win probability of 53% advantage, and with a maximum war win probability of 60% occurring in 1 in 1000 wars (probabilities assume equally skills players).

i agree there needs to be a way for new players to progress fast, but not a way for someone to create an account in 5 months that's far superior to the matchmaker than an account that takes 3 years, you must reward the right things, the things that are a challenge, to keep people farming, and you must reward skill level, and you should not allow any way for skill to be irrelevant.

for the benefit of clash, we need a matchmaker that provides almost van wars, with slight leans to maxers and .5ers, with strong troops and high heroes. But I feel that may be a topic for another thread.

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yes maybe another thread.
I for one dont think the mm is perfect and small canges are needed. I dont think however its that bad. I war in 2-3 clans of different sizes and th levels all the time. I very rarely see these wars that are won before an attack is made either for or against me. If they are as common as many claim then i'm just lucky or i'm doing something different than most. Remember i have both maxed and balanced accounts with just one"engineered" account. I'm just not getting these massive mismatches either way.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

I agree with this, with the exception of the word "banned"... it should rather, I think, be bought to an end the way th sniping was - an in game mechanics change that renders that lopsided advantage playstyle moot.

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Thanks for pointing that out. The word 'banned' was used in an article about how to win in PvP games by using any advantage available. The author makes a lot of great points & that's where I actually got the realization that the real problem with engineering is that it destroys the game experience over the long term. (Side note: I'm fully aware that a lot of the engineering complaints come from people running too many defensively lopsided accounts in war.)

I don't mean ban the accounts from the game, I meant they should be made as disadvantageous in war as accounts with defenses far ahead of offense. I thought I clarified that with the last paragraph, but if anyone thought I was saying their account should be banned from the game for engineering, that wasn't my intent!

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

Thanks for pointing that out. The word 'banned' was used in an article about how to win in PvP games by using any advantage available. The author makes a lot of great points & that's where I actually got the realization that the real problem with engineering is that it destroys the game experience over the long term. (Side note: I'm fully aware that a lot of the engineering complaints come from people running too many defensively lopsided accounts in war.)

I don't mean ban the accounts from the game, I meant they should be made as disadvantageous in war as accounts with defenses far ahead of offense. I thought I clarified that with the last paragraph, but if anyone thought I was saying their account should be banned from the game for engineering, that wasn't my intent!

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if you change the word banned in the OP to 'strongly nerfed so they have no underserved advantage', you would be my forum hero of the week, possibly the month.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

This is why so many are at TH9 still... the spot in the game where there is balance. if SC adds offensive that makes th9 easier, and 10 still sucks, game is probably done as the war mechanics will be only 11v11 2* fests. you can join clash with ash in clash royale at this point.

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I totally agree that SC needs to make being a full TH10 are more attractive option. It's better than it's been in the past, but still a serious put-off.

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Originally Posted by Denton

Especially this line "To re-iterate however, the buck stops with SC, I don't blame the engineers.:)"

+1
Ten million plus ones

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Yeah, I posted with the hope that SC might actually ramp up their efforts to fix MM. It took them forever to even admit that modding was a thing, let alone a problem.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Depends what you mean by innovating. When you have constrained offense, you have to be quite innovative when planning your attack. I have a TH11 that doesn't have any dark barracks, and figuring out how to 3 star TH10 without using any more bowlers, lava hounds, etc. that I can't fit in my CC can be quite challenging. I can't just google the layout I'm attacking and copy the 3 star attack from youtube, I have to innovate my own.

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That's kind of my point. I feel pretty confident that most of your attacks are really just tweaking a few things to adapt to the layout of the base you're attacking, but you have one solid comp that is your bread & butter. You've deliberately cut yourself off from a whole variety of other attacking options.

If you'd like to invite me to visit your clan & show me how I'm wrong, feel free to PM your clan tag.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

That's kind of my point. I feel pretty confident that most of your attacks are really just tweaking a few things to adapt to the layout of the base you're attacking, but you have one solid comp that is your bread & butter. You've deliberately cut yourself off from a whole variety of other attacking options.

If you'd like to invite me to visit your clan & show me how I'm wrong, feel free to PM your clan tag.

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Isn't that true for most maxxers as well? Most people in my clan are maxxers who have researched most troop upgrades for their respective town halls. Yet, in war after war, regardless of the opposition base, they tend to stick to one type of bread and butter attack. This is true for opposing maxxer town halls we face in wars are well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

That's just coincidence. Engineering in the simple forms like defenceless or any extreme lopsided bases didn't work until SC broke the MM badly in March 2016. It then took a few months for the craze to spread and people to build the bases - so mid to late summer was when it started becoming a visible problem for many people. Which was when SC swung the ban hammer properly IIRC.

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Thats just coincidence...which is exactly what i said in my first sentence...?

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

Yeah, I posted with the hope that SC might actually ramp up their efforts to fix MM. It took them forever to even admit that modding was a thing, let alone a problem.

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Well we will have some insight shortly with this update coming but I think that it is best to expect incremental change as that seems to be the safest approach...

I realize that they have to be careful about how much that they share in terms of the adjustments as it is a double-edged sword - revealing too much and it makes it easier to engineer (at least to the current MMA). Conversely, I, and I believe that most reasonable people, think that they need to say more about what they are doing and the direction that this is all heading...

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Originally Posted by Chang405

Isn't that true for most maxxers as well? Most people in my clan are maxxers who have researched most troop upgrades for their respective town halls. Yet, in war after war, regardless of the opposition base, they tend to stick to one type of bread and butter attack. This is true for opposing maxxer town halls we face in wars are well.

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Maybe in really bad clans. By late TH9, most of my rather mediocre clan have figured out 2 or 3 attack metas. If you've not bothered upgrading certain troops, you'll never even be thinking about trying something new.

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

That's just coincidence. Engineering in the simple forms like defenceless or any extreme lopsided bases didn't work until SC broke the MM badly in March 2016.

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Your timing is off. It was working for me in 2015, when I turned my maxing 8 into an 8.10.

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Originally Posted by Denton

Well we will have some insight shortly with this update coming but I think that it is best to expect incremental change as that seems to be the safest approach...

I realize that they have to be careful about how much that they share in terms of the adjustments as it is a double-edged sword - revealing too much and it makes it easier to engineer (at least to the current MMA). Conversely, I, and I believe that most reasonable people, think that they need to say more about what they are doing and the direction that this is all heading...

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True, they need that game ambassador in part, to keep repeating the design goals as often as needed.

I'm waiting for the update to see if they're moving the needle on MM. I understood the slow, deliberate approach last October, but at this point, bad engineering is proliferating & making it ever harder to get a pool of decently matched clans. Seven months later, it's time to start giving extreme lopsiders a clear message by either making those accounts a huge liability in MM or by refusing to match them against clans that don't have enough defense to really challenge their skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

That's kind of my point. I feel pretty confident that most of your attacks are really just tweaking a few things to adapt to the layout of the base you're attacking, but you have one solid comp that is your bread & butter. You've deliberately cut yourself off from a whole variety of other attacking options.

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Yup. That per-base customization is innovation, and it's harder to do with a reduced-offense engineered account than it is with an account that has the full array of troop options.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

Maybe in really bad clans. By late TH9, most of my rather mediocre clan have figured out 2 or 3 attack metas. If you've not bothered upgrading certain troops, you'll never even be thinking about trying something new.

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In that case most clan must be really bad ones. Or your clan is not as mediocre as you believe

Edit for added info. I am the only Th10 in my clan that uses more than one meta. Out of all the Th9s in my clan only one has 2 meta. Maybe its because we are really bad or maybe its because that one or two meta consistently works so there isn't any incentive to try out more metas. We are a casual friend and family clan with no extremely lopsided engineered bases. Our style of play still allows us to win more than 80% of our wars and 2 days ago we just had a 24 game winning streak ended.

So either we are not really bad or almost everyone else is really bad. I'm not sure what to believe at this point in time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

True, they need that game ambassador in part, to keep repeating the design goals as often as needed.

I'm waiting for the update to see if they're moving the needle on MM. I understood the slow, deliberate approach last October, but at this point, bad engineering is proliferating & making it ever harder to get a pool of decently matched clans. Seven months later, it's time to start giving extreme lopsiders a clear message by either making those accounts a huge liability in MM or by refusing to match them against clans that don't have enough defense to really challenge their skills.

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Agreed on both accounts. Let's see what the update brings because as we have discussed before, if there is no significant penalty to engineering, it will continue to expand...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chang405

In that case most clan must be really bad ones. Or your clan is not as mediocre as you believe

Edit for added info. I am the only Th10 in my clan that uses more than one meta. Out of all the Th9s in my clan only one has 2 meta. Maybe its because we are really bad or maybe its because that one or two meta consistently works so there isn't any incentive to try out more metas. We are a casual friend and family clan with no extremely lopsided engineered bases. Our style of play still allows us to win more than 80% of our wars and 2 days ago we just had a 24 game winning streak ended.

So either we are not really bad or almost everyone else is really bad. I'm not sure what to believe at this point in time.

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I love the word meta...

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...t-Meta-is-Meta

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be banned.

Engineering seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can't be beaten by any amount of attacking skill. Successful engineering requires pretty good attacking skill, but it's based on the idea that the engineering clan can get easier 3 stars than the enemy.

Engineering is a dead end in the long term. Does anyone want to claim that engineers are innovating new attack strategies? Modders at least had that argument in their favor. Engineering leads to an ever more limited choice of attack strategies. I'm experiencing this firsthand with my lopsided TH9. It's very effective with one strat, but I have no incentive to diversify.

Engineering left unchecked will result in every clan having a few TH11 anchors & a whole bunch of 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts that are not challenging on defense. The really talented attackers have no interest in that type of war. It's a dead end that few people will want to participate in. It will utterly destroy innovation & the richness of the game. It completely excludes anyone who is trying to balance farming & warring, while upgrading their account. It will drive any newcomers out of the war scene. Eventually, it will kill the game.

There's a whole lot of room to allow some leeway for optimizing your base & your clan roster, but SC needs to admit they created a mess with the March 2016 MM update & start putting much stronger checks on extreme lopsiding NOW. Anyone who wants to build an extremely lopsided base for the fun of it can still do so. But, they should expect that style of play to be as serious a disadvantage in war in war as putting defense way ahead of offense.

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i have been trying to explain to daddylindos Crew the difference between how they post and the post above, daddy/gaga/gator - read this post, and compare it to yours, this is how it's done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

We've all seen the threads debating the pros & cons of engineering & whether it's a valid/fair way to play the game. It doesn't violate ToS & fair is entirely subjective. This argument is missing a crucial fact:

Any play style that destroys the richness of the game should be banned.

Engineering seeks to bring an overpowering offensive advantage that can't be beaten by any amount of attacking skill. Successful engineering requires pretty good attacking skill, but it's based on the idea that the engineering clan can get easier 3 stars than the enemy.

Engineering is a dead end in the long term. Does anyone want to claim that engineers are innovating new attack strategies? Modders at least had that argument in their favor. Engineering leads to an ever more limited choice of attack strategies. I'm experiencing this firsthand with my lopsided TH9. It's very effective with one strat, but I have no incentive to diversify.

Engineering left unchecked will result in every clan having a few TH11 anchors & a whole bunch of 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts that are not challenging on defense. The really talented attackers have no interest in that type of war. It's a dead end that few people will want to participate in. It will utterly destroy innovation & the richness of the game. It completely excludes anyone who is trying to balance farming & warring, while upgrading their account. It will drive any newcomers out of the war scene. Eventually, it will kill the game.

There's a whole lot of room to allow some leeway for optimizing your base & your clan roster, but SC needs to admit they created a mess with the March 2016 MM update & start putting much stronger checks on extreme lopsiding NOW. Anyone who wants to build an extremely lopsided base for the fun of it can still do so. But, they should expect that style of play to be as serious a disadvantage in war in war as putting defense way ahead of offense.

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perfectly done. a war should NEVER be decided before the fighting begins. it's ludicrous.

Some very well written and thoughtful comments to this post. Here are my thoughts to the original question of why engineering will kill clan wars.

There are 2 parts to war offense and defense. For many of us, we spend time on both developing a base that will defend well in war and also perfecting our skills to get maximum stars on offense. There is both enjoyment when your base has held up well to the oppositions attacks and when you can 3 star an opponent with a competitive base at your level.

When being matched to an engineered clan, this part of the war game is severely hurt for many of the players in the war. Their base is being attacked with troops well superior to what they can ever defend against and their opponents base is easily starred even with an unskilled attack. Only the top tier of the war roster can have the competitive and fair matchup. The net result being that the war loses a lot of the appeal we seek for many of the players. In the end, if this type of matchup continues on a regular basis, many will lose interest in my opinion

I agree i think that engineering takes the fun out of the game and makes ppl not wamt to play sc needs to put abstop to it

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Originally Posted by 6a6a

perfectly done. a war should NEVER be decided before the fighting begins. it's ludicrous.

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agree 100%, fun for no one and destroys the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoneyBadger2

Some very well written and thoughtful comments to this post. Here are my thoughts to the original question of why engineering will kill clan wars.

There are 2 parts to war offense and defense. For many of us, we spend time on both developing a base that will defend well in war and also perfecting our skills to get maximum stars on offense. There is both enjoyment when your base has held up well to the oppositions attacks and when you can 3 star an opponent with a competitive base at your level.

When being matched to an engineered clan, this part of the war game is severely hurt for many of the players in the war. Their base is being attacked with troops well superior to what they can ever defend against and their opponents base is easily starred even with an unskilled attack. Only the top tier of the war roster can have the competitive and fair matchup. The net result being that the war loses a lot of the appeal we seek for many of the players. In the end, if this type of matchup continues on a regular basis, many will lose interest in my opinion

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agree 100 percent.

Agree 100%...Today we decided to start our first 50vs50 - guess what? We hit an engineered clan - 8 maxed th11 on top, several "one cannon bases" at the bottom. We are an average clan from th7 to th 11 (NOT maxed). They will rule us out, and if Supercell does not get into action this will effectively ruin the larger wars. We tend to find acceptable opponents in wars up to 25, but above it is a MESS!!!

Well someone should take the other side. 95% disagree.

In March of 2016, or 14 months ago, SC changed the mm to benefit offensively lopsided bases in wars. And at the same time reduced the benefit to having a maxed base. Since then, some people have adjusted and built bases or modified their upgrade path to take advantage of a SC initiated change of the game.

Others have not adjusted, and are now struggling to keep up.

Along the way SC decided that TH sniping should not receive the free shield and removed the benefit. My estimate is everyone on the forum reading this adjusted their base and now has a defended TH.

Why should clan wars be any different? It's not like any of this is brand new. It is the new most effective strategy available.

If SC changes the mm, we all will adjust. Maxers, .5's, dless. Or you don't adjust and be at a disadvantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Well someone should take the other side. 95% disagree.

In March of 2016, or 14 months ago, SC changed the mm to benefit offensively lopsided bases in wars. And at the same time reduced the benefit to having a maxed base. Since then, some people have adjusted and built bases or modified their upgrade path to take advantage of a SC initiated change of the game.

Others have not adjusted, and are now struggling to keep up.

Along the way SC decided that TH sniping should not receive the free shield and removed the benefit. My estimate is everyone on the forum reading this adjusted their base and now has a defended TH.

Why should clan wars be any different? It's not like any of this is brand new. It is the new most effective strategy available.

If SC changes the mm, we all will adjust. Maxers, .5's, dless. Or you don't adjust and be at a disadvantage.

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You should say "meta" JohnnyS loves that word...though I suppose "mesa" is close enough.

You are right. I have always wondered why people don't take the plunge and just zip right on to 11 and claim there free warden. I think it is gradually heading that way. I see lots of lopsided/defenseless bases in the making. More and more people are making second accounts and following that path. It will be sad the day that every single war match is nothing but a bunch week defense offense pushing villages.


In my opinion:

Maybe people only have 1 account and are aware that the game could change overnight and do not want to potentially ruin their account causing them to have to put in months of time and effort (less they gem) to square it up.

Could also be a moral/honor thing.

Either way currently they could adapt but they are choosing not too. There isn't really much of a physical leg to stand on. This is how the game is currently played. However, SC owes it to it's customers to maintain a balanced system and encourage a balanced play style that won't make one style of play better then another.

I think .5 makes sense as an upgrade path for those that want to war. You avoid having to be excluded from wars when you jump a town hall level. You can gradually buff your offense to a point that it safe to drop those big defenses and be ready to give as good as you get. It also buys you some practice time to try hitting the next level before consistently pulling the next level.

I don't see the need for defenseless/lopsided bases. It's much to extreme a form of an engineering and currently is effecting the balance of the game in a negative way. I honestly don't believe SC saw what style of play they would unlock when they allowed offense over defense strategy. A defenseless base probably never crossed their mind.

What you say is true even though its harsh. And, it reflects the current situation at hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Well someone should take the other side. 95% disagree.

In March of 2016, or 14 months ago, SC changed the mm to benefit offensively lopsided bases in wars. And at the same time reduced the benefit to having a maxed base. Since then, some people have adjusted and built bases or modified their upgrade path to take advantage of a SC initiated change of the game.

Others have not adjusted, and are now struggling to keep up.

Along the way SC decided that TH sniping should not receive the free shield and removed the benefit. My estimate is everyone on the forum reading this adjusted their base and now has a defended TH.

Why should clan wars be any different? It's not like any of this is brand new. It is the new most effective strategy available.

If SC changes the mm, we all will adjust. Maxers, .5's, dless. Or you don't adjust and be at a disadvantage.

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Solid post, no problem with following your train of thought and for the most part agree, the issue then for me is the game hides so much info on weights or effects of upgrades with a matchmaker that constantly changes, as your village progresses further into the game it is near impossible to make changes on it and without a computer or statistical degree its make more accounts or plod onwards, more than likely at a disadvantage in one aspect of the game.

Can't agree enough with several comments on this thread. If SC killed off TH snipes because "that's not the way the game is supposed to be played," then for them to do nothing about engineers / engineered clans seems like a tremendous double standard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jonrdavies

Can't agree enough with several comments on this thread. If SC killed off TH snipes because "that's not the way the game is supposed to be played," then for them to do nothing about engineers / engineered clans seems like a tremendous double standard.

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You raise a great point. Sadly, look how long it took them to act to remove TH snipe from gameplay. A long, long time. Let us hope this update will have content that moves us toward a place that takes away some of the attack advantage lopsided bases gain in current MM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

In March of 2016, or 14 months ago, SC changed the mm to benefit offensively lopsided bases in wars.

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Caveat on phrasing: a change was made that had the side effect - intended or not we can't say as we don't know the intention - of benefitting offensively lopsided bases. From things said by SC employees since it seems the intention was not to purposely encourage or benefit that play style, at least not insofar it involves having an advantage in matchmaking. Since then much feedback has been given from the community on how it negatively impacts gameplay fun for a great many. This thread's OP can be thought of as making a further eloquent contribution in that vein.

Just as those who created lopsided offence bases to benefit in matchmaking are not to be blamed or thought of as doing something unfair, so too those who choose not to do that with their bases are not to be thought of as simply complainers or people who are culpable for their situation in that they failed to be smart enough to adapt to something. It's the matchmaker that wants fixing to remove any undue advantage of lopsidedness, not either group of players to be blamed for the situation.

And I for one think Supercell is working on it slowly - too slowly for my tastes and those of many others - but nonetheless working on it. And I hope a day comes soon when the smart skilled engineers have reason to drop their xbows, infernos and eagles and go on showing their skills against bases with defences that match or better their offence strength, and the dumb unskilled ones who made all their stars dipping and bullying need face Clash war reality full on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Well someone should take the other side. 95% disagree.

In March of 2016, or 14 months ago, SC changed the mm to benefit offensively lopsided bases in wars. And at the same time reduced the benefit to having a maxed base. Since then, some people have adjusted and built bases or modified their upgrade path to take advantage of a SC initiated change of the game.

Others have not adjusted, and are now struggling to keep up.

Along the way SC decided that TH sniping should not receive the free shield and removed the benefit. My estimate is everyone on the forum reading this adjusted their base and now has a defended TH.

Why should clan wars be any different? It's not like any of this is brand new. It is the new most effective strategy available.

If SC changes the mm, we all will adjust. Maxers, .5's, dless. Or you don't adjust and be at a disadvantage.

---

Quite simply because adapting your village and making it lopsided to achieve an advantage in war is an extremely undesireable way to play. There has to be a certain amount of entertainment value achieved from playing this game. Organizing a clan that requires and depends on a majority of dip attacks on weaker villages while still having the top end defensive advantage just doesn't offer any value to those of us who enjoy making quality attacks on strong opponents and spending time trying to tweak our bases and put up a strong defense. I can't think of a better word to describe the effect of lopsided bases on clan wars other than dumb. It's just a dumb way to play and I will never adapt to it. I don't find any more joy in kicking the snot out of a wimpy engineer than I do seeing our top 10 get steamrolled by a lackluster max troop lavaloon spam attack. It's dumb all the way around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

You should say "meta" JohnnyS loves that word...though I suppose "mesa" is close enough.

You are right. I have always wondered why people don't take the plunge and just zip right on to 11 and claim there free warden. I think it is gradually heading that way. I see lots of lopsided/defenseless bases in the making. More and more people are making second accounts and following that path. It will be sad the day that every single war match is nothing but a bunch week defense offense pushing villages.


In my opinion:

Maybe people only have 1 account and are aware that the game could change overnight and do not want to potentially ruin their account causing them to have to put in months of time and effort (less they gem) to square it up.

Could also be a moral/honor thing.

Either way currently they could adapt but they are choosing not too. There isn't really much of a physical leg to stand on. This is how the game is currently played. However, SC owes it to it's customers to maintain a balanced system and encourage a balanced play style that won't make one style of play better then another.

I think .5 makes sense as an upgrade path for those that want to war. You avoid having to be excluded from wars when you jump a town hall level. You can gradually buff your offense to a point that it safe to drop those big defenses and be ready to give as good as you get. It also buys you some practice time to try hitting the next level before consistently pulling the next level.

I don't see the need for defenseless/lopsided bases. It's much to extreme a form of an engineering and currently is effecting the balance of the game in a negative way. I honestly don't believe SC saw what style of play they would unlock when they allowed offense over defense strategy. A defenseless base probably never crossed their mind.

What you say is true even though its harsh. And, it reflects the current situation at hand.

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Ha! Yes I do! :)

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Originally Posted by Tomville

Caveat on phrasing: a change was made that had the side effect - intended or not we can't say as we don't know the intention - of benefitting offensively lopsided bases. From things said by SC employees since it seems the intention was not to purposely encourage or benefit that play style, at least not insofar it involves having an advantage in matchmaking. Since then much feedback has been given from the community on how it negatively impacts gameplay fun for a great many. This thread's OP can be thought of as making a further eloquent contribution in that vein.

Just as those who created lopsided offence bases to benefit in matchmaking are not to be blamed or thought of as doing something unfair, so too those who choose not to do that with their bases are not to be thought of as simply complainers or people who are culpable for their situation in that they failed to be smart enough to adapt to something. It's the matchmaker that wants fixing to remove any undue advantage of lopsidedness, not either group of players to be blamed for the situation.

And I for one think Supercell is working on it slowly - too slowly for my tastes and those of many others - but nonetheless working on it. And I hope a day comes soon when the smart skilled engineers have reason to drop their xbows, infernos and eagles and go on showing their skills against bases with defences that match or better their offence strength, and the dumb unskilled ones who made all their stars dipping and bullying need face Clash war reality full on.

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Agree. Some forget how truly awful the MM was right after the December 2015 update. TH11s were paired with TH10s and the community was in an uproar--full out crisis. SC had to make a change to the MM to nullify the awful matchmaker, and the advantage posed by lopsided bases significantly increased (plus grew more popular via community awareness).

SC has stated they don't like this (lopsided bases) and it's not the way the game was intended to be played, but after a year (years?) they have yet to demonstrate the ability to resolve this. Casual clans now hurt their chances of winning by not putting lopsided bases in the lineup.

I still don't know how to multi-quote.

Johnnysullivan: "mesa" was for you. Thought the other thread was funny.

Tomville: You are correct, my phrasing was not accurate, unintentionally. SC didn't tweak the mm to get the current state, but it was the major consequence. And imo, led us on the path to where we are today.

Humpty: Much of the challenge of discussion here is people arguing about 1 thing but defining it differently. We obviously have a different definition of dumb. You can argue unfair, not in the spirit of competition, but dumb just makes no sense. It is the smartest way to be in random clan wars.

As I said, no one makes you adapt, but knowing what is working and what gives you an advantage and then making a decision counter to that is your choice. Some people might argue that doing that and giving yourself a disadvantage could be called dumb.

I hope SC does improve mm, but their history in dealing with this manner says they will make minor changes, which will continue to benefit smart engineering.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

...

Humpty: Much of the challenge of discussion here is people arguing about 1 thing but defining it differently. We obviously have a different definition of dumb. You can argue unfair, not in the spirit of competition, but dumb just makes no sense. It is the smartest way to be in random clan wars.

As I said, no one makes you adapt, but knowing what is working and what gives you an advantage and then making a decision counter to that is your choice. Some people might argue that doing that and giving yourself a disadvantage could be called dumb.

I hope SC does improve mm, but their history in dealing with this manner says they will make minor changes, which will continue to benefit smart engineering.

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We may or may not have a different definition of dumb but I am sure we have a different means of deriving enjoyment from the game. Putting efforts into MM manipulation gives you joy, succeeding at making challenging war attacks is where I get mine. In the current state you get one or the other with very little overlap. Participating in a game in a manner that I get no enjoyment from is dumb lol, successful or not I will not participate in something I feel is dumb. If the game was in its current state when I was 3-4 months into it and could grasp what was going on I would not have advanced beyond TH8 and would not be playing today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumptyGoblin

Quite simply because adapting your village and making it lopsided to achieve an advantage in war is an extremely undesireable way to play. There has to be a certain amount of entertainment value achieved from playing this game. Organizing a clan that requires and depends on a majority of dip attacks on weaker villages while still having the top end defensive advantage just doesn't offer any value to those of us who enjoy making quality attacks on strong opponents and spending time trying to tweak our bases and put up a strong defense. I can't think of a better word to describe the effect of lopsided bases on clan wars other than dumb. It's just a dumb way to play and I will never adapt to it. I don't find any more joy in kicking the snot out of a wimpy engineer than I do seeing our top 10 get steamrolled by a lackluster max troop lavaloon spam attack. It's dumb all the way around.

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keep these posts coming...this is it in a nutshell. 2 thumbs way up

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

As I said, no one makes you adapt, but knowing what is working and what gives you an advantage and then making a decision counter to that is your choice.

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I am sorry, but that whole adapt phrase is a bit too simplistic no?
When you had a maxed base before the whole march 2016 changes, you could not adapt. Even if you want too, you could not get rid of defenses you have built. Sure, when you are a maxed TH9 you could start semi-engineering, but not the whole defenseless shebang. That is purely for people who are devoted to war and creating second accounts.

I do not think the game is better off without all the maxers or casual players who cannot or do not want to adapt.

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Originally Posted by Prutser

I am sorry, but that whole adapt phrase is a bit too simplistic no?
When you had a maxed base before the whole march 2016 changes, you could not adapt. Even if you want too, you could not get rid of defenses you have built. Sure, when you are a maxed TH9 you could start semi-engineering, but not the whole defenseless shebang. That is purely for people who are devoted to war and creating second accounts.

I do not think the game is better off without all the maxers or casual players who cannot or do not want to adapt.

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you are correct... sort of. If you were a maxed th10 prior to the change, you cannot remove the infernos. You could have gone to th11, not dropped the eagle, maxed warden, and been semi-engineered. If you were a maxed th9; Th9 splash defenses, maxed th11 point, and maxed offense. Huge benefit in an engineered clan.

as far as dless, that is a devotion to war. Anyone devoted, committed and focused on a particular skill should have an advantage over a casual.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

as far as dless, that is a devotion to war. Anyone devoted, committed and focused on a particular skill should have an advantage over a casual.

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And that is why in my opinion engineering could indeed kill the war part of clash of clans. In my opinion casuals/non engineers are needed to have a big enough clan pool.

Edit, more explanation: Casuals/Non engineers should be able to win too. If the wars become all unwinnable for casuals /non engineers due to the growing number of hugely dfless or near dfless (like defense of 2 THs lower) they would stop playing wars. Sure they might get invested in farming. If the coming update is really a new way of playing the game which is fun, this shift from war to something else could even go faster. Lower player clan pool in war search, meaning even bigger mismatches.

Again, I will say this in pure honesty, I am doing the semi-engineering with all my accounts myself now because I see no other way to have fun in war anymore. Yes, that would make me a hypocrite. I am done with waiting on SC to make fixes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumptyGoblin

Quite simply because adapting your village and making it lopsided to achieve an advantage in war is an extremely undesireable way to play. There has to be a certain amount of entertainment value achieved from playing this game. Organizing a clan that requires and depends on a majority of dip attacks on weaker villages while still having the top end defensive advantage just doesn't offer any value to those of us who enjoy making quality attacks on strong opponents and spending time trying to tweak our bases and put up a strong defense. I can't think of a better word to describe the effect of lopsided bases on clan wars other than dumb. It's just a dumb way to play and I will never adapt to it. I don't find any more joy in kicking the snot out of a wimpy engineer than I do seeing our top 10 get steamrolled by a lackluster max troop lavaloon spam attack. It's dumb all the way around.

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100% this, couldn't have put it better myself.

Of course it will kill clash of clans.

Nothing to do with whether engineering is cheating (obviously not). But the failure of the MM to deal with it fairly means that more and more people engineer. Those who don't want to engineer, including semi casual players, stop playing because it is no fun. Eventually most clans will be engineered, and the advantage will reduce, but it will be too late. Only the engineers will be left.

(CWL etc are great but for the minority)

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Originally Posted by Chilli59

Of course it will kill clash of clans.

Nothing to do with whether engineering is cheating (obviously not). But the failure of the MM to deal with it fairly means that more and more people engineer. Those who don't want to engineer, including semi casual players, stop playing because it is no fun. Eventually most clans will be engineered, and the advantage will reduce, but it will be too late. Only the engineers will be left.

(CWL etc are great but for the minority)

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Well said, it will be interesting to see what is coming in the new update, maybe a matchmaker fix? Wouldn't hold your breath but who knows.

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

Well said, it will be interesting to see what is coming in the new update, maybe a matchmaker fix? Wouldn't hold your breath but who knows.

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Inferno & eagle weights reduced to zero. Also, completely unrelated development, inferno gem pack price increase and new eagle gem pack introduced.

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

Well said, it will be interesting to see what is coming in the new update, maybe a matchmaker fix? Wouldn't hold your breath but who knows.

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I used to think it would be tournaments. Now I am guessing its some other game mode which can be an alternative to clan wars.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

you are correct... sort of. If you were a maxed th10 prior to the change, you cannot remove the infernos. You could have gone to th11, not dropped the eagle, maxed warden, and been semi-engineered. If you were a maxed th9; Th9 splash defenses, maxed th11 point, and maxed offense. Huge benefit in an engineered clan.

as far as dless, that is a devotion to war. Anyone devoted, committed and focused on a particular skill should have an advantage over a casual.

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For most players, going into hard core engineering isn't a fun way to play. Very few are willing to put the effort or money into heavily lopsided bases, just for the war advantage. The longer it goes unchecked, the fewer people playing balanced bases will want to do war. After balanced clans give up, the engineers will start quitting because they can't get easy wars. It's a dead end.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Inferno & eagle weights reduced to zero. Also, completely unrelated development, inferno gem pack price increase and new eagle gem pack introduced.

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The boat will let you rescue refugees from Boom Beach islands. You'll get to send your armies to Hay Day farms to raid enough food to feed them all...

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

For most players, going into hard core engineering isn't a fun way to play. Very few are willing to put the effort or money into heavily lopsided bases, just for the war advantage. The longer it goes unchecked, the fewer people playing balanced bases will want to do war. After balanced clans give up, the engineers will start quitting because they can't get easy wars. It's a dead end.

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That might be the long run end, but it could be years. Which would make this a fairly long lasted game.

We also still have no idea how prevalent this really is. Our sample size (maybe 100 active posters on the topic, I'll give you 1,000 active) represent less than 1% of the overall population of people playing. If all 1,00 complain that leaves a lot of people who are casual players who win some lose more and have fun.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

That might be the long run end, but it could be years. Which would make this a fairly long lasted game.

We also still have no idea how prevalent this really is. Our sample size (maybe 100 active posters on the topic, I'll give you 1,000 active) represent less than 1% of the overall population of people playing. If all 1,00 complain that leaves a lot of people who are casual players who win some lose more and have fun.

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It is very common anymore in clan wars, every clan, to some degree has at least a few lopsided bases. Whether that means more people are jumping on the bandwagon and doing it or in my personal belief alot of maxer type clans have stopped warring. Give it another year and it will be engineer on engineer. Winner determined by who designs their clan's roster the best.

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Originally Posted by Krastor

It is very common anymore in clan wars, every clan, to some degree has at least a few lopsided bases. Whether that means more people are jumping on the bandwagon and doing it or in my personal belief alot of maxer type clans have stopped warring. Give it another year and it will be engineer on engineer. Winner determined by who designs their clan's roster the best.

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And maybe that is the SC plan. Let engineers run random wars, create and manage a league system for those that want a CWL experience, run short term promotional tourneys. There are options. It's not just engineers will kill the game. SC has multiple others games to get ideas from. There are a lot of higher profile PC games that have similar formats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

That might be the long run end, but it could be years. Which would make this a fairly long lasted game.

We also still have no idea how prevalent this really is. Our sample size (maybe 100 active posters on the topic, I'll give you 1,000 active) represent less than 1% of the overall population of people playing. If all 1,00 complain that leaves a lot of people who are casual players who win some lose more and have fun.

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You are right in that we don't know how prevalent it is, only Supercell would have that data. Anecdotally, it's possible for a th10 to live off attacking 9.5s in crystal without much nexting - there are about as many or more of them than dead bases in multiplayer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

And maybe that is the SC plan. Let engineers run random wars, create and manage a league system for those that want a CWL experience, run short term promotional tourneys. There are options. It's not just engineers will kill the game. SC has multiple others games to get ideas from. There are a lot of higher profile PC games that have similar formats.

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Surely you don't think people would be interested in watching wars in the style of CWL with engineered clans. Max troops hitting defensively weak bases would not draw much of an audience I don't think. Unless it was a race to who could get the perfect war first. I might watch that once or twice

First, let me say that this is a great discussion - I have enjoyed reading up until this point (though it took me a while!!).

I agree with the main premise of this discussion: prolific engineering is bad for the game for a number of reasons. First, it eventually forces serious war clans (who do not participate in elite war leagues like CWL) to adopt the strategy, which frustrates casual players and those ideologically opposed to it. This may crowd them out and eventually cause them to stop warring. This dilutes the pool of matchmaking, causing a greater concentration of engineers. This would then further discourage non-engineers and create a negatively reinforcing cycle.

However, this assumes that SC does not make changes to the MM. I am willing to bet, as others have pointed out, that they will tweak the matchmaker as they fixed the TH sniping debacle. It has been taking them frustratingly long to do so, but they have supposedly been putting most of their efforts into the biggest CoC update ever :).

It will be interesting to see how the clan war matchmaking pool does after the update? It is very hard to predict without knowing more details about the update, but let's suppose it is a new game mode that is separate from clan wars (essentially competing). This would likely have a negative effect (even less casuals interested in CW and instead choosing to play the new feature). However, the update will likely bring more people into the game, which could offset that effect in the long term.

My bet is that engineering gets worse after the update, which puts it higher up on SC's list of priorities to fix, leading to a substantial fix by the end of this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krastor

Surely you don't think people would be interested in watching wars in the style of CWL with engineered clans. Max troops hitting defensively weak bases would not draw much of an audience I don't think. Unless it was a race to who could get the perfect war first. I might watch that once or twice

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I don't know what people are interested in watching. I find the CWL wars incredibly boring. TH9's get cleared, couple left over scout, th10's 2 star th11's. Then try for a 3 star, th11's dip. Rinse, repeat weekly.

I think a matchup between an engineered clan with a couple max th11's and extra wardens from engineered bases vs a clan with more th11's with eagles and more infernos is more interesting. Non-engineered have to be more efficient lower, engineered need more hits against higher defense bases. It would be a different strategy based on matchup. Unfortunately, the mm cannot make matches like this.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

I don't know what people are interested in watching. I find the CWL wars incredibly boring. TH9's get cleared, couple left over scout, th10's 2 star th11's. Then try for a 3 star, th11's dip. Rinse, repeat weekly.

I think a matchup between an engineered clan with a couple max th11's and extra wardens from engineered bases vs a clan with more th11's with eagles and more infernos is more interesting. Non-engineered have to be more efficient lower, engineered need more hits against higher defense bases. It would be a different strategy based on matchup. Unfortunately, the mm cannot make matches like this.

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The short format wars.. clash cup for example,are less boring. 24 hour is a long time...

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

I don't know what people are interested in watching. I find the CWL wars incredibly boring. TH9's get cleared, couple left over scout, th10's 2 star th11's. Then try for a 3 star, th11's dip. Rinse, repeat weekly.

I think a matchup between an engineered clan with a couple max th11's and extra wardens from engineered bases vs a clan with more th11's with eagles and more infernos is more interesting. Non-engineered have to be more efficient lower, engineered need more hits against higher defense bases. It would be a different strategy based on matchup. Unfortunately, the mm cannot make matches like this.

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I, for one, love watching CWL. Top notch base designs and incredibly creative attacks. Even though the strategy for winning is similar each war as you describe, this is essential for creating the fairest possible playing field.

In my opinion, engineered bases provide no net value, positive or negative. The entire concept negates itself.

The entire purpose of an engineered base in war is to allow for the potential to attack much higher than his own pair. This is easily countered if someone much lower than his pair can wipe his puny 1-defense base out with ease

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Originally Posted by H4MMER36

In my opinion, engineered bases provide no net value, positive or negative. The entire concept negates itself.

The entire purpose of an engineered base in war is to allow for the potential to attack much higher than his own pair. This is easily countered if someone much lower than his pair can wipe his puny 1-defense base out with ease

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Welcome to the forum, H4mmer36. This is an old thread, and there have been many since then on this vary topic.

I disagree with you on several points.

- Engineered bases sole purpose is not to attacker higher than their mirror in war. It is to gain an extra high level attack for the clan.
- I would hope a defenseless (one cannon base0 base gets wiped out by someone "lower" than the engineered base's position in the roster, however usually a defenseless is, by definition, the lowest in the war line up, since the line up is based on defensive weight
- The entire concept of engineering does not negate itself. It comes down to how you view Clan Wars. Is it strategy, base design, and attack skill during war, or all that plus optimizing your bases for war prior to hitting war search. Neither is wrong, but it would be nice to know which way SuperCell prefers.

Good luck to you, and again, welcome to the forum.

The game is designed to generate revenue and maximize profit. It isn't designed to generate even matchups and legitimate war records. Until a new entrant provides a better game with better team matchmaking, clash of clans engineering will remain a problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jrod55426

The game is designed to generate revenue and maximize profit. It isn't designed to generate even matchups and legitimate war records. Until a new entrant provides a better game with better team matchmaking, clash of clans engineering will remain a problem.

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Actually, the game cant/ wont generate anything unless they can keep a big enough player base in the game. So its in their own interest to try and give people the even and fair match up they desire. Sometimes they get it right , sometimes they don't. But to not care would have seen the demise of this game long ago. Its pure business sense to solve the issues. We play for fun, they run the game to pay the bills.

In my mind, coc is a offline game, but clan war makes it become a online battle. it's a team fight to each other. SC never said or restrict you should build something to upgrade next th level in game. it's very flexible.

MM makes you and your opponent own similar strength on defense or offense, on top or bottom ...
You can not ask everyone should get maxed and be a MT in online game, just like a team game, we need healer, sniper, archer, tank, and so on....

New clasher does not have chance to catch up the top user if he don't do engineering. All we know this game takes long time to reach to maxed. I always encourage our new member to rush their base after last August update. If he wanna do everything maxed then upgrade Townhall. I believe 95% clasher will terminated the coc life before they get all maxed th10. A better or best play style is keep upgrading one war offense and one loot offense, non-stop and keep upgrading heroes and defense until th11. Once they find this war offense is done, then start to landing other war offenses. In fact, If they follow my suggestion, Now they are standing on TH11 and owns LV6 dragon or LV5 miner and 20/20/10 heroes. A professional COCer or leader should own different mini account to fit different MM trend. Don't ask everyone to be a tank in war, we need different roles in team games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frainlll

In my mind, coc is a offline game, but clan war makes it become a online battle. it's a team fight to each other. SC never said or restrict you should build something to upgrade next th level in game. it's very flexible.

MM makes you and your opponent own similar strength on defense or offense, on top or bottom ...
You can not ask everyone should get maxed and be a MT in online game, just like a team game, we need healer, sniper, archer, tank, and so on....

New clasher does not have chance to catch up the top user if he don't do engineering. All we know this game takes long time to reach to maxed. I always encourage our new member to rush their base after last August update. If he wanna do everything maxed then upgrade Townhall. I believe 95% clasher will terminated the coc life before they get all maxed th10. A better or best play style is keep upgrading one war offense and one loot offense, non-stop and keep upgrading heroes and defense until th11. Once they find this war offense is done, then start to landing other war offenses. In fact, If they follow my suggestion, Now they are standing on TH11 and owns LV6 dragon or LV5 miner and 20/20/10 heroes. A professional COCer or leader should own different mini account to fit different MM trend. Don't ask everyone to be a tank in war, we need different roles in team games.

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Well said, agree without engineering, me and a lot of my friend as a late comer to COC(end 2015), probably will not play COC anymore after mid TH9 because of boring, but the engineering makes 5 of us having probably 40-50 Accts from TH9 to TH11 with totally different build

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frainlll

In my mind, coc is a offline game, but clan war makes it become a online battle. it's a team fight to each other. SC never said or restrict you should build something to upgrade next th level in game. it's very flexible.

MM makes you and your opponent own similar strength on defense or offense, on top or bottom ...
You can not ask everyone should get maxed and be a MT in online game, just like a team game, we need healer, sniper, archer, tank, and so on....

New clasher does not have chance to catch up the top user if he don't do engineering. All we know this game takes long time to reach to maxed. I always encourage our new member to rush their base after last August update. If he wanna do everything maxed then upgrade Townhall. I believe 95% clasher will terminated the coc life before they get all maxed th10. A better or best play style is keep upgrading one war offense and one loot offense, non-stop and keep upgrading heroes and defense until th11. Once they find this war offense is done, then start to landing other war offenses. In fact, If they follow my suggestion, Now they are standing on TH11 and owns LV6 dragon or LV5 miner and 20/20/10 heroes. A professional COCer or leader should own different mini account to fit different MM trend. Don't ask everyone to be a tank in war, we need different roles in team games.

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Have you ever played CoC?? Like seriously.. you are saying that COC is an offline game.. tell me
Can raids be done Offline?? and Can clan chat be done offline??? or can the searches (for clans, players etc) be done offline???
What i mean to say is that try not to comment on anything that you don't have full information about. Cos, it effects the thoughts of other fresh spawns here.

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Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

Actually, the game cant/ wont generate anything unless they can keep a big enough player base in the game. So its in their own interest to try and give people the even and fair match up they desire. Sometimes they get it right , sometimes they don't. But to not care would have seen the demise of this game long ago. Its pure business sense to solve the issues. We play for fun, they run the game to pay the bills.

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They possibilities of making income has increased with engineering for SC. In almost all wars we have had in the recent months, we were matched up against engineered clans. Engineering has now become the strategy. The clans who play genuinely without engineering have two choices.

1. Stop playing clan wars.
2. Create new engineered bases in your clan.

The game is quite addictive and people will now try to engineer their clan too. That's now the new source of revenue for SC. The engineers will take the game forward.

We are seeing a lot of clans with early stages of engineering. SC has given them a boost too.. The Power potion.

So, if u want to get fair matchups in war, get a few engineers on your side too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freezerclasher

They possibilities of making income has increased with engineering for SC. In almost all wars we have had in the recent months, we were matched up against engineered clans. Engineering has now become the strategy. The clans who play genuinely without engineering have two choices.

1. Stop playing clan wars.
2. Create new engineered bases in your clan.

The game is quite addictive and people will now try to engineer their clan too. That's now the new source of revenue for SC. The engineers will take the game forward.

We are seeing a lot of clans with early stages of engineering. SC has given them a boost too.. The Power potion.

So, if u want to get fair matchups in war, get a few engineers on your side too.

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Well, i don't agree with your last line.
I am leader of a lvl 13 clan. We don't take any rushers or engineered bases in war.
We get fair matching in wars. My clan's win streak is 11 at the moment.

Also, I have posted few things regarding war matching, which i have found after experimenting in war squad of my clan.
Its a thread in this sub-forum. Have a look at it. It can clear a few things i guess.