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I don't understand why they need to address engineered bases. Its not cheating its something everyone can do. Its like saying a football team cant use the flea flicker because the other team will be caught off guard. If clans are complaining about engineered bases then get some engineered bases!! Problem fixed.
Sounds like a good idea. Thanks for posting.
Your analogy is flawed.
Try putting a NFL team up against a high school team then run the play.
It's all about beating the matchmaker not the other team.
Both teams have the same plays but one has much harder hits.
For more understanding try reading posts here: https://forum.supercell.com/forumdis...p/66-Clan-WarsQuote:
Originally Posted by mbelle
My view tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Endofdays
Engineering is an attempt to gain advantage because of a flaw in matchmaking. Not to win a like for like match using skill.
I see that other non-supercell games often now require that certain building be upgraded before "going to the next level" as it were. This prevents most engineering. However, the cat is out of the bag in Clash of Clans and I don't see how SuperCell can put it back in.
Engineered clans should have there own matchup process. I laugh at the thought of engineered clans as a flea flicker. Engineered clans are a completely different philosophy to this game. An engineered base skips over most if not all available upgrades. This is clearly not the point of the game that supercell intended. As a player in a fair play clan it makes me laugh to go up against an engineered clan cause I know it is a waste of time. Something in the matchup algorithm needs to identify these clans and put them in their own group or make the weight of the war base be a minimum of the max TH below the TH they are.
hmm whats this engineering you speak of? First post I have seen on the forums about this.
Rushers bring the same miss match. Our clan is not always over powering. I understand its one way or the other. A clan full of engineered bases would be an unfair match up. But our clan is is usually fairly even matched.
This is the best analogy I have seen yet. Perfectly describes what engineered bases are, and what they do to the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endofdays
That analogy isnt completely true. If the high school team got matched against browns they might have a chance. 😂😂😂
It's more like the Peyton manning Indianapolis Colts or the Steve Nash Phoenix suns. Engineers are building a roster to outscore you, and playing just enough defense to win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbelle
It's not like that at all. Engineers don't play defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccmushroom
I have not weighed in on this discussion yet. My personal view is simply that the matchmaking is too heavily based on defensive capabilities and certain defenses in particular (EA, IT) are just excessively burdened with "war weight". I think would actually be easy by tweaking again the war weight and making it for example equally about offense and defense - maybe even consider elements like war stars collected, troop and hero levels, etc... However I also understand that this may pose some monetization risk if levelling up your heroes and troops may get your tougher match-ups in wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by mbelle
Anyway I doubt Supercell will consider this but this is how I would improve the raging match making discussions and make it simply less attractive to have engineered bases. Ultimately as many said everybody can play how the want but current system clearly favors strongly an approach to artificially hold back building out defenses which makes it less fun for many
Just my 2 cents
Benemike
How do you win without playing any defense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Himewad
We're engineered and while we generally have the offensive advantage we get paired against more difficult bases to attack, the enemy always has stronger defense than us. Not our fault we're better attackers and the other guys who dropped inferno's aren't. In our current war we have 1 base with a level 1 inferno and a level 2 inferno. The enemy has 8 infernos on their top 4.
If every single clan was engineered, the win would come down to how well engineered are you, rather than how good at attacking/designing decent bases are you?
That would be a very bad place to be.
It is a game. Play it like a game, Not like a real war.
Sorry if my words hurt anyone.
So maxed offense, heroes, no new defense after th upgrade = not engineered? Doesn't it do the same? Lowers war weight to get easier opponents?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviLHarsH
You can't say FPC but .5s are ok.
Best response ever. This made me laugh! Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ribeye
You are comparing ages, it's like comparing a 3yrs old coc account vs a 1yr old account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endofdays
A 1 month old rushed account TH9 get MM vs a 1 month old maxed account th5, who to blame if maxer can not build efficiently for war?
It's not putting NFL team up vs school team, since when NFL team has bad defences??? Don't blame on other team if they build efficiently on the same timeframe as your team. It's childish excuse to blame on MM.
p.s. Why can't you beat the rushed bases with low defences???
Personally I find both sides of this argument flawed. The concept that, " If you think lopsiding is unfair, just do it yourself." As a TH11 I've no desire to start a new account with only one cannon. That's absurd. Now the other side is, "Lopsiding is cheating! You guys suck! It's ruining war." I've run a .5 every new TH since long before it was smart to do so.(I used to get screwed back in the 50/50 weight days) SC has done a lot recently to nerf the advantage of lopsiding. When I first turned 11, and got my warden to lvl 10, without any TH11 troops I started pulling Eagles in war. Now that I've a couple TH11 troops and a teen warden plus upgraded CC, I constantly pull new to mid 11's with Eagles. I've yet to build any TH11 defenses, because my builders are still busy. But the matches seem fair. I've a good offense, they've a good defense. The problem most clans are having is they are sandbagging too hard. This is allowing too much room for lopsiders to wiggle in. Build a line up with the assumption that all your bases up to TH9 will get tripled. Then you need some flag ship bases at the top to defend stars. Oh and don't drop infernos when you've not even upgraded your army camps, and don't drop the Eagle when your Warden is lvl 1-5.
It is interesting how the words chosen to be used in the description of the issue can impact the discussion. What if, rather than describing it as addressing "engineering," it was instead described as addressing "uneven war matches"? I personally have no problem with engineering. It is clearly not cheating as you said. It is just people taking advantage of faults in the matchmaker. The problem isn't the engineers. The problem is the matchmaker doesn't accurately account for the useful offensive and defensive power in wars, resulting in matches that are not even. That is what I want fixed, not engineering. (And I have engineered accounts, by the way, I just think even war matches is better for the game, especially long term.)Quote:
Originally Posted by mbelle
I love one of the responses about how we are better at attacking than a maxed base. How many times has your prolly th10/11 come up against a th8 that's maxed because a war algorithm has been bent to help you more than others.
But the only way to get a fair match is to have engineered accounts. But so far we have been lucky until win number 6 comes along. As we have a few maxed bases through the th lvls, with a few engineered to help balance. And this war we are against a heavy engineering clan. Except. I know we should get 100% this war. But they will fail to get all stars required. We are at the perfect line of getting very heavy engineering clans. And taking there stupid win streaks. I'm loving it ATM against them
Putting 3 th3's at the bottom of the roster of non-engineered bases is still engineering, just a different form. All the big boy clans do it so are they engineering too?
Yes that is roster engineering and it was heavily nerfed last couple updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverMor3
Exactly nevermor!! Theres always ways around it and people exploit it. The game evolves and you roll with it.
There are many threads on this issue in the Clan Wars Sub-Forum, and lots of good discussions about the pros and cons.
To answer your question directly, I suggest you look at Billius' post for the long-term ramifications of engineering.
The other threads touch on it, or give suggestions on how to fix it.
====
Nerf’s suggestions for engineered bases / clans
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...17#post7861017
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...01#post7979801
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...82#post8067582
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...58#post8371458
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...24#post8371624
Billius discussion on the impact of Engineered clans and bases to the game
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...-and-Farm-Wars
Onyx view on Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...84#post9272584
Seachicken view on Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...53#post9304253
Sumosloth on Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...ut-Engineering
Noctaire's blog on Engineering
http://nocsclashjournal.blogspot.com...-how-best.html
How to avoid Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...mpetitive-wars
Nerf's response to how to avoid engineering thread
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...33#post9910533
OnyxDS's 5 part solution to war mm:
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-list-matching
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...ng-the-scoring
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...er-engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...en-waiting-for
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...e-mirror-limit
SC Q&A about Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-Developer-Q-A
Quote Originally Posted by Anoushka[Supercell]
Hey all,How is Supercell working towards balancing Clan Wars matchmaking?
With every update there is the normal round of war matchmaking balance, and that will always shift things a bit. New troops/defenses/levels/stat changes get incorporated and weights are rebalanced according to troop usage and effectiveness.
In the last update we rolled out a couple of adjustments so that "lopsided" bases/clans don't have that much advantage as before, and the more extreme cases of lopsided clans will have a harder time finding a match, and will be matched with tougher opponents. We firmly believe in a good balance and will continue to monitor things and to roll out small (or bigger) adjustments to war matchmaking with every update."
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...und-IV-ANSWERS
5)Does Supercell see lopsided bases as a fair and equitable playing style?
"Engineering" is a heated topic and opinions about it are divided.
Are lopsided bases anything we can prevent? If we could, should we do drastic changes? Would players put up with strict restrictions on upgrades to mandate offense-defense balance?
Say we put in a restriction, could the restrictions be balanced to be somewhat more lenient? Where would we draw the line? And if this is a complex line, would we need tools to help players manage their upgrades and understand their restrictions better?
Some cases cannot be prevented even with restrictions. For instance, thinking about launching a new troop, spell, defense or extra buildings at lower Town Hall levels. Doing balancing becomes more difficult, as any bigger rebalance could allow people to break the restrictions.
Without a restriction, what can we do? Keep in mind that we are already doing a lot. As mentioned in the previous Dev Q&A, there is a huge amount of code behind the CW matchmaking that specifically looks for lopsided bases and is designed to mitigate any unfair advantage they might have. This isn’t always obvious to players, because the war map is sorted by defense strength only. However, attack strength is ALWAYS taken into account, and CW matchmaking does all it can to make sure the “books are balanced” overall from top to bottom of a war map, both in terms of attack and defense strength. Of course we can always do better and we will continue to improve this matchmaking very often.
We can’t really prevent them without making extremely complex restrictions that will adversely impact some players and that would require a lot of time and development effort to do right - and even then they might not even work that well in the long term. Instead, we try to improve our matchmaking algorithms to reduce unfair advantages from things like lopsided bases, and we will continue to do so regularly!
.5 is not viable anymore. There is war weight penalty to consider now, even if your a 8.5, you still get matched against 9s (non maxed xbows)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tollboothwillie
Even engineers gets the ww penalty but their defensive weight is so low that an engineered 11 gets matched against a th8 or maybe even lower. Now it wouldn't be an issue if they use these accounts to clear the lower villages, but that's not why these guys engineer now, is it?
#30 or #40 in the roster hitting the top 5 is pretty darn annoying. To know that you have to be in a FPC.
Yes that is roster engineering and it was heavily nerfed last couple updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverMor3
High TH Defenseless bases with certain max troops just to punch your top guy with a weight of th7 and you don't have an answer for it because your top guy don't even have the offense like that defenseless base that could wreck also the opponents top bases.
Fair-play? no! Hoping for SC to eradicate this type of gameplay eating WMM Fair-play to the core.
Principally i come across this in every game or app i play. In royale you got people who complain about not destroying both towers before going after king tower. In last of us people complain about using purchased weapons. Theyll never please everyone and not everyone plays the same. So whos to say whats right or wrong.
It's FP as SC use the term. Their game, their definitions apply so yes, engineering is FP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makemewise
Also, even a defenceless TH11 will weigh way more than a TH7. Map position is no indication of a base's war weight, just of its relative defensive strength within its own clan.
*deleting* oops, got stuck on page 1, clearly it's been explained several times nowQuote:
Originally Posted by sheedy17
Exactly. Blaming other players for playing within the rules in a fashion that tends to give them an advantage is a fool's errand, when the root cause is faulty software. Changing the game so only sets of identical bases are matched up is boring; much more interesting to have balanced matches which offer the opportunity to play with imagination rather than a straitjacket.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Painfully true how is it possible for a NFL team to be rebuilding since 99' come on Browns let's see at least one decent seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by mbelle
I think you partially right the Colts or Suns are a good team without that all star the all star just makes them the best. Like engineering the defenses are adequate but a fully engineered clan is a green line all star.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccmushroom
I agree build how you want but SC should refine the matchmaker to fix a lot of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Govizard
Also the poster who said they had a 8 inferno disadvantage most likely has 4 Th11 with Warden Attack advantage.
Most would agree the attacker needs to perform but had the best shot at succeeding.
Apparently you have to know things that aren't true to be in a FPC. Or maybe FPC stands for Frickin Pathetic Clan?Quote:
Originally Posted by 91shadow
It it makes no difference where the attack comes from, whether base #1 or #50 (remember, that ranking is sorted on DEFENSE!), because the stars given out are exactly the same.
Wonder how interesting wars would be if team A only had top bases at th10, team B had GW attacks ranked below the TH9 on the map, but since team A has no EA, the GW is greyed out for the war Attacks.
A lot of you are missing the point completely, trying to come up with your own nonsensical arguments for/against engineering.
The bottom line, engineering is an exploit. Zero analogies required. You can flip it anyway you want but that is a fact. A game mode that is exploitable should be fixed.
Also equal opportunity =/= fairness. This logic is so flawed. Get real guys, enjoy it while you can because you know it won't last. This is coming from a guy who has engineered 2 out of 3 accounts btw.
yup this... SC has a track record of fixing exploits when they are abused.Quote:
Originally Posted by str8grizzly
TH snipe anyone? Everyone could do that so why was it cheating hehehe
Itll be a shame to see it go ive had one of mine since you could attack any th in your trophy range.
Yes SC can and should fix things that they deem to be hurting the game. But SC also has a track record of fixing things very very slowly so I wouldn't be too concerned about engineered bases being completely nerfed any time soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraven001
Or at all...at this point I don't think SC will do anything major. But there were hints about the next update--we shall see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
It's about using every advantage allowed. Understanding how matchmaking works is a part of it just like knowing how to attack. btw I love how people use this analogy. Makes the engineers out to be the pros and well other strategies to be in high school. Except balanced bases have an advantage over engineers so maybe they are the pros.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endofdays
Another flaw I like to point out is since the engineered accounts build faster that others maybe they are like a highly skilled junior high team beating a below average high school team.
Engineered bases are only used by clans who can't win wars fairly! Learn to attack !
So because i have engineered bases i cant attack? Guess my 1400 war stars on my main is a fluke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Himewad
Engineers win by not playing defense because it's not a one-on-one game. Clan wars - and war matchmaking - are about the sum of the parts. The engineering part can afford to play no defense because they skew the offensive part so much to their advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccmushroom
Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
I think you're too caught up in analogies and it's making you blind to the issue. Engineering is an exploit and if matchmaking was flawless, engineering wouldn't exist. A th11 is not meant to defend like a th9. A th11 offense is not meant to raid a th9.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
You're the team that paid for scouts and recruiters after splurging on quality gear and elite training camps, just to play against an average team.
Did you play it smarter? 100% yes.
Did the other team have the same opportunity? Sure.
Regardless, this is not a fair match. You are far from equals.
I'm not sure who said engineers don't know how to attack. It's not about skill level for those guys. It's about exploiting the war matchmaker so that you have more high level attacks than your war opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by mbelle
I will say this about skill, however: it doesn't take much skill for a clan to win a war if they have a heavy advantage in the number of max th11 attacks they are using. On an individual base level, you need skill to beat your opponent. On a clan level, it's the epitome of cowardice to run engineered accounts in your lineup.
For the record, I mildly engineer. My low accounts are always attacking up. There are several threads where I have posted screen shots of my 3 starring a max or near max th9 with sub 5\5 heroes and level 1 troops (hounds golems). So we should put the notion to bed that some engineers cannot attack or are bad attackers. Also, any advantage we gain from my light engineering is promptly neutralized by taking max offense th9's to war that cannot 3 star a th8 with dragons or any other army comprised of max th9 troops. Im sure they could if they used lavaloon, but they love dragons and thats all they want to use despite my gentle encouragement to try something new. My engineering is more of a fortification. I use as light was weight stuff as I can to make up for the heavy weight handicaps. Most of my bases balance another base in the clan. A high offense low defense will balance a high defense low offense base for example.
A lot of engineers as said before are alternate accounts of players who have been through all the levels of the game and know their way around attacking with different army comps. What they do with the alts is take their vast experience and couple it with lower level troops to achieve much more efficient outcome then the first time around. So those defenseless th11's at the bottom of the map with 45/45/20 heroes and max hounds and loons arn't made because that player has trouble 3 starring th3's. That account was made because the MM is incapable of finding a balance for that account and as such causes a (big most of the time) favorable imbalance to the war.
All that being said, all your football analogies are wrong. If engineering were professional foot ball, it would be like having two defensive ends and a huge anchor base errr center to protect the town hall err quarterback with the rest if your team consisting of Antonio Browns. You just hope you can provide enough resistance while racking up lots or touchdowns err stars. More then the the opposing team.
And just like it would happen in that game. There are plenty of maxxer clans with really good attackers that thank you for leaving your quarter back unprotected as they smack down your quarterback and the game is a loss or a draw.
1st of all i dont think the mm is perfect. There is ways to make it better sure. I do however think its pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by str8grizzly
2nd i think most people before saying the mm is so messed up need to take a hard look in the mirror and determine if its really the mm on a match up or are they limiting themselves somehow.
Remember you can choose to limit yourself but that is your choice not the mm.
3rd as i have stated many time this is a strategy game and using the knowlegde of the mm is part of an overall strategy. If you choose to limit yourself with the mm again that is your choice not the mm fault.
4th i see posts all the time Bout how unfair the wars are however i seem to almost never see it and ive been playing for over 3 years so either im super lucky, i work with the mm and its adjustments over the years, im a completely awesome attacker (im good but not awesome), or i see that what on paper might look unwinable just might be so i go for it anyway and suprise myself.
i look at what i can control and what i cant. Things that i cant control i let go of and focus on what i can do to get better. Fyi complaining about the mm isnt going to make me better.
Pros? Really? :facepalm:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
You will probably just ignore this like you did the last time I mentioned it, but how come this "pro" strategy is not allowed in any CoC tournaments? :confused:
Tournaments substitute TH rules for the regular matchmaker. Whether specifically banned or not, engineered accounts are useless under those rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
A better way of putting it is if the matchmaker is a TH based tournament, maxing becomes the optimum engineering strategy and all the pros bring max accounts.
No, a better way of putting it is that at the highest level of competition, there is no place for engineering.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
The matchmaker is not a tournament of any kind. It is just an automated system that provides matchups for one-off wars.
Automation has it's trade-offs and limitations. The potential for engineering is one of them.
But the notion that a strategy that depends on and only exists because of the limitations of said system is "pro" is just plain ridiculous.
An even better way of putting it: at the highest level of competition for maxed bases there is no place for engineering, just as there is no place for rushed bases or bases that just finished upgrading.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
If by tournaments you mean cwl that is friendly war and while similar to clan war it is different. There maxed bases have the advantage. In clan war requires an understanding of the mm to be effective. This is a skill and like attacking is learned. I have stated before that engineered aka defenseless isnt the best in cw. Its a blend of different styles.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
What people fail to realize is that cwl is top competition for friendly wars. Friendly wars are different that cw. One isnt better than the other just different.
Huh? How does adding "for maxed bases" make any sense whatsoever?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
The highest level of competition is CWL, period. There is no high level of competition per base progression style. Unless of course there is a pro league for engineers or rushers that I haven't heard about...:facepalm:
By tournaments I mean tournaments. CWL is one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Now you are just engineering the definition of clan wars.
A clan war is a war between 2 clans. A friendly war is an arranged war between 2 clans. A friendly war is a clan war.
Don't be obtuse.
So, again, my point is that you cannot call engineering a "pro" strategy if it is not used in any "pro" setting.
Call it smart, clever or whatever else you may like, but you guys are taking these delusions of grandeur wayyyy too far now. :unsure:
Thanks for your post - I hadn't thought about it like this before.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
You also for get the idea of the "pro" strategy was that many use the analogy of a an nfl team beating up on a high school team. Therefor they were the ones who basically called it that.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
Also you have your opinions i have mine. Just cause ours clash doesnt mean they are wrong however you seem very closed minded about this much like the article said a group would. So go enjoy the game the way you play it and i will enjoy it my way.
Hi,
First I apologize if someone already suggested this, and about my bad English.
The main idea is to force minimum requires in order to take part in clan wars.
the way to determine that is linking army force to defenses, for example, in order to use level 6 archers, you must have all your available archer towers at least level 10, level 6 wizard must have level 6 wizard towers, and so on, every unit upgrade link to specific defense in some way.
Of course, you cannot make such huge change in a single day, so you announce this one unit at a time, like that every month or 2 one unit linked to a defense.
I know, not every unit have a parallel defense, this require some thinking exactly how to make it properly, and also to take under consideration that many accounts will have to adjust their defenses, which will take some time, and they MUST receive that time, because they haven’t done anything wrong.:)
I think you are confusing a concept here. If the CWL says they are going to host a tournament and they say the roster must consist of 2 TH11, 2 TH10 and 1 TH9, who in their right mind would bring a defenseless TH11? When it's a friendly war, then the people holding the tournament can make the rules. As the others said, one would be forced to bring a defenseless TH11 in a TH11 spot, they don't get to bring a defenseless TH11 in lieu of TH10 or TH9. Hence, engineering makes no sense in a tournament format because one would always want to bring maxed everything for said TH. If it is not allowed in tournaments, my guess is that it wouldn't be allowed because no one wants to see a match where one team gets an automatic 3 star handicap.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
You have made more than one statement to the effect of engineering being an "expert" strategy. My response has nothing to do with that analogy. You seem to think that engineers are better players than the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Your opinion is based entirely on one article that is taken completely out of context when inserted into this topic. You treat it like a bible and add nothing to any discussion other than "like the article says". :facepalm:
I am very close minded about engineering not being an "expert/pro" strategy because of facts, not opinions.
Oh, I would love to enjoy the game my way, but engineering is an antagonistic strategy that is forced onto people who don't have any interest in playing that way.
You are missing the point entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadrach777
The reason it is not allowed is irrelevant. I could give you my take on it but it does not matter.
My point in it's entirety is that a strategy cannot be "pro" if it is not used by pros, so engineers really need to get over themselves.
Just call it what it is - an effective way to rack up war loot and win streaks against casual clans.
But if you want to be the best then why not take it to the next level and play in the best leagues?
I don't know about better players than everyone. Better planners than most, certainly. Better players than most, certainly, but that's more a commentary about how low the average player is than it is about how good engineers are. The median player rushes their TH and uses canned armies. Better players than CWL? Obviously not on the average, but there are certainly individual engineers who are CWL level players, just like there are individual maxers who are CWL level players.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
You need a certain minimum amount of knowledge about the game in order to engineer, and that makes you more knowledgeable than the average player.
Kind of like all of multiplayer. Multiplayer defense is my least favorite part of the game. Stupid Dec 2015 update.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
This logic is flawed, in the game everyone has access to join the NFL team, nobody is forced to stay in high school😉. Grow up kids!Quote:
Originally Posted by Endofdays
I'm sorry, I get the point you are trying to make, but you can't bring up the CWL as proof because it's a false dichotomy. You don't run defenseless in the CWL as I pointed out in my earlier post because it's structured around max accounts. I could care less if people consider the strategy pro or not, you were stating the best leagues do not contain defenseless and using it as proof for your claim. I am stating your proof is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
Engineering is an effective way to rack up war loot and win streaks.
People who want to compete in the best leagues will, based on the structure of the league.
I don't think you do get the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadrach777
You don't run defenseless in any league because leagues are structured, period.
If you are suggesting that it is practical or even possible to create a league structure that accommodates engineering, then why don't they exist?
The fact and point is that engineering does not exist within any structured competition. It is not used by pro's, therefore it is not "pro".
How can a fact be invalid? It will only become invalid if any league accommodates engineering and pro's start doing it in pro leagues.
So, unless you're going to show me an example of such a league, then all you are doing is adding arbitrary ambiguity to a very simple concept.
Clan war league is in friendly war which is different than clan war. That is a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
Structured competition can be friendly war or using the mm since it is also a competition. Fact.
The 2 firendly wars and clan war while similar are different. Fact.
Since they are different different strategies may be needed. Opinion.
You need to relax. You are taking this way to seriously. Its just a game. Have fun.
Since engineering is not used by pro leagues, it makes it not pro. And since pro leagues only uses max bases, maxing is the pro way to play the game. Is this a fair summary of your thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
Your right it is flawed, its more like saying hey heres our high school team, and its a bunch of nfl players in high school uniforms with fake birth certificates....Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgoff
Actually, its more like the high school football league does not have rules in place that prevents nfl players from joining high school teams. No fake birth certificates are involved at all. The problem is with the league rules, not the nfl players or the high school teams that recruit the nfl players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redviper42
I'm not relaxed?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
If you don't want to have a debate, all you have to do is not respond...
Again, a friendly war is a clan war. Do with that what you will.
My only point is in bold. Take it easy with the strawman business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
Not trying to strawman you. I wanted to see how your train of thoughts progressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
Is it not true that the pro leagues only uses max bases? Is there a pro league that doesn't use max bases? Therefore, can we not infer that max bases seem to be the only pro way to play the game?
If there can be no agreement on the differences between friendly war and clan war then there is no debate. GoodbyeQuote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
That is a strawman argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
It would be like saying that since pros always use spells in their attacks, that we can infer that using spells is the "pro" way to attack.
Now, if pros never used spells in any of their attacks, then we would have no basis for saying that using spells is "pro". This is along the lines of my thought process re engineering.
You can't just flip it around.
Actually, it is possible to engineer for CWL, in two ways:Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
First, CWL uses their own custom weighting method to balance TH10s. They only weigh certain things. You could engineer for that scoring system by not upgrading the defenses that you believe they weigh erroneously high (if you do in fact believe such a thing), or just upgrade all your other defenses first. Then you'd count for their purposes as a "low" or "mid" TH10 when you attack like a high TH10.
Second, you could just permabase. Perma TH9 or Perma TH10 are engineered for friendly wars that only consider the TH level when determining how much you "weigh". They are at a local maxima; upgrading to the next TH like normal players do at that point would put them at the bottom again.
Did not know about the TH10 weighting.Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
But how much impact can doing that actually have if you'd still be weighted as a TH10?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but It sounds even less significant that .5ing.
Doesn't sound like it would be worth it at all.
A maxed base (perma or not) is as balanced as it can be. If your base is balanced then how can it be considered engineered just because you keep it that way forever? That is a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.
If all the pros use spells, one can surely infer that spells are beneficial during attacks (the pro way). If spells are not beneficial why would the pros use it?Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
I completely understand the rest of your reasoning.
You are 100% correct. Blame the rules all you want, and i agree they need fixing, But it doesnt sit well with me knowing nfl players need to join high school leagues to feel good about winning. Im old school though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
It fits the broad definition of engineering (optimized for some long term goal, usually war related). Most people who max TH9 go on to TH10. They don't stay at TH9 forever to war at that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
I have a perma TH9, and at some point (maybe this year) I'll have a perma TH10 too. I haven't done any of these one-off tournaments yet but at some point I probably will.
My last point of your illogical fallacy I'll provide an example. Forums is hosting a "pro" TH6-TH8 war event, since TH9/TH10/TH11 is not in pro event they are not proQuote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
They need to address engineered bases, or lopsided bases as SC likes to call them, because they are able to gain too much advantage. If any given clan is engineering well they will ensure that they either win or at the worst tie. This takes the game to a very dark place, if war wins can be obtained before war even begins what is the point of wars then?Quote:
Originally Posted by mbelle
Your analogy is flawed more like a highschool team that has good players on it because they have better people and train harderQuote:
Originally Posted by Endofdays
Every single engineering thread devolves into whether words being used are offensive or arguing whether anologys used to describe the said engineering are wrong.
Let's call a spade a spade. Engineers like it because it allows them to win, casuals and maxer clans don't like it cause it causes them to lose. Now it settled. Engineers are not gonna change their opinions, and neither are maxers. It is what it is. Everyone of us must decide for ourselves what path we want to take. Sorry bout ranting, it's just getting so old the same arguments just on different days.
Agree; it is a mild form of engineering, arguably the mildest, but it entails a deliberate choice made with some war advantage in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
CasimirEffect claims that some players who reach max th9 and stay there are doing so to participate in CWL, or because of exhaustion after the th9 hero grind, or just for variety's sake.
I grant that these are plausible reasons, but they do not coincide with my experience or observation. I believe my clan faced more perma th9 before the last two major MM updates, or before the existence of CWL. These days they are extremely rare, at least in the non-rarefied clan wars we draw. (Unfortunately I can't offer a shred of evidence for this claim, not having kept war logs, so YMMV.)
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...1#post10038711
thats not true, I was a die hard pro engineer who I came to the forums thinking it was as much a part of the game as is learning govaho. Now I demand a more even matchmaker for the good of the games, and to provide the right incentives. Dorsan and others now engineer feeling if you can't beat em, em beat em. Most people have had their perceptions altered and become more reasonable and less toxic or abrasive. Ideas change people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krastor
Well I'm just not seeing much change in people opinions, there are 10 threads on front page of this sub forum about engineering. And I'd guess if I looked at the other threads they would be complaining about it toQuote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
I sincerely do hope it really is your last point, because you are so far off it's getting ridiculous now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadrach777
What I said is that engineering is not used in ANY tournament. Not a specific, single example of a tournament. (It wouldn't let me make the "any" any bigger :smirk:)
A TH6-8 tournament is a single example of a tournament and does not represent any and all tournaments.
I've evolved from 'engineering is the only force for good in the world', to trying to convince people to band together to get the matchmaker changed. Most reasonable people from both sides have evolved on the issue, no respectable person calls it cheating anymore, and no respectable forumer argues it's good for clash in its current form, in fact most see it as very dangerous and like me are desperate for a matchmaker change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krastor
Ive even developed empathy for maxers, most people who engage in discussions with others develop more moderate positions as they listen to others stories and understand their frustrations.
its what the forums are all about.
Obviously not. Engineering is strategically upgrading your base according to how matches are made. Radically change the way matches are made (tournament), radically change engineering (to the point where you don't call it engineering).Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
It's a game. Why do people always make such a big deal about a game? If someone wants to play it a certain way within the parameters of the game, then let them do it. Grow up people. If you lose a war or 2 it's not the end of the world. If something inside of a game makes you this mad, then you should probably reevaluate your life decisions
surely its ok for customers to ask supercell to improve the matchmaker? SC needs feedback because... Never mind, lost my thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adien22
Well it's kinda like anything else in life that you have put time and effort into to make it as enjoyable as possible. When things change and you no longer enjoy whatever it is your doin, the first reaction is usually anger and frustration. I do agree with you that people generally get carried away here on the forums. But then after the anger and frustration stage comes acceptance, I guess that's where I'm at currently. And to be honest I'm actually enjoying clan wars again because I don't care if we get a bad match and get took out behind the woodshed. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Adien22
Here we go.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
When a point is too simple to refute, just redefine words to insert some arbitrary ambiguity, right?
Fortunately I specialise in purging ambiguity, so let me fix that for you :):
Engineering is strategically upgrading your base to exploit limitations/loopholes in how matches are made (by the matchmaker).
If you remove the limitations/loopholes (by manually organising a tournament without using the matchmaker), you don't change engineering, you effectively eliminate it.
When you can't refute a point, put words in people's mouths and give it a fancy name, such as "purging ambiguity"? Let me fix that for you :):Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
You believe that the current matchmaker has limitations and loopholes.
You believe that filthy engineers exploit it, whereas you are only engaging in smart upgrading.
You would prefer a manually organized tournament.
1) totally agree.
2) where's the line? and why? Do you completely exclude any .5 from your clan? do you have a precisely calibrated time for when to drop xbows, infernoes, eagles, and always hold to it? Have you now or in the past deliberately delayed upgrades to maximize your three-star chances against your expected mirrors?
3) these exist. You are free to choose to make this your only mode for clan wars. If, on the other hand, you are suggesting SuperCell should (or could) adopt this approach, you don't know much about the company.
Your definition is actually pretty close to mine, there's just a lot of unnecessary emotional baggage attached. If you look at it more rationally I think you'll see its not smart to apply the words 'loophole' or 'exploit' to something that's existed for two freaking years without correction. Its not a loophole or an exploit, it is the game we are playing. If it changes I'll change too, or get bored and quit. But I didn't set up the incentives, I'm just responding to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by nullandvoid
And yes you can get away from the strategy you don't like, by setting up a tournament with your own rules. Under different rules, you pursue a different strategy, and that turns out the be the maxer strategy you prefer. And I'm glad that option exists for those that want it. Again, we're actually saying the exact same thing its just I'm not emotional or judgmental about it.
When I read posts like this, I constantly re-evaluate my life decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adien22
I've changed my mind over time. Before participating in forum threads I didn't consider the long term unbalancing effects of mass defenseless. It is a tricky problem to solve, and I enjoy thinking about that kind of problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krastor
I don't think you realize the severity of the situation. SOMEONE on the INTERNET is WRONG! WORDS must be CAPITALIZED in RESPONSE!!!!11!!1!!elevenQuote:
Originally Posted by Adien22
This is what I meant in my thread, "Stop shouting around to stop engineering, enough!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by mbelle
Very refreshing to see posts like this. Not because of your stance on a particular issue, but because the forum and the exchange of knowledge was used to help make an informed decision. And you may sway back to another stance over time, but it's good to voice opinions and have thoughtful discussions. Clash on.Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor