They already are. What should the punishment for the leader be for not properly vetting the new recruits?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sincere1212
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They already are. What should the punishment for the leader be for not properly vetting the new recruits?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sincere1212
I actually would be in favor of severe penalties for war hoppers. As long as there were protections for people who were kicked.
Something like two weeks without wars if they leave a clan for any reason or by any method outside being kicked during a war if they were opted in at the time of being included in war.
Increased to three weeks and then a month for repeat offenders.
If they were opted out and included, no penalty. Same for being kicked.
People who think it's just a clan management issue have no idea at all of the realities of running a clan in this day and age. Especially not a brand new clan. Saying that it is is incredibly offensive and either an outright lie on their part or incorrect.
Saying things like "Don't let new people in war" is kind of impossible when you absolutely must put new people in war to progress because your clan is so new that everyone in it is new. Saying that the leader isn't fit to be a leader, or that "their doing a bad job" isn't reality for new(er) clans. Yes, older, established, well run clans that have been around for longer than a few months have that option. That's possible for them. It's not for us.
And saying it's a clan management issue isn't true at all. It doesn't matter how professional you are, how professional your clan description is, how active the leader is, or how much they donate.
You can't manage people who don't want to be managed. It just isn't possible. Hoppers will hop, deserters will leave and let everyone down, and little kids will harass high end players trying to get into clans they don't meet requirements to get into.
So yes. Add a penalty system that increasingly makes it harder and harder for them to find a clan the more they ditch. And have it be smart enough to notice if someone just drops a hero or a barb and leaves. Something like if you leave at all during war (outside being kicked) you immediately get the penalty. Even if you've used your attacks.
That way people could just leave the moment war ended if they wanted, or ask to be kicked. And it can't be tricked by dropping a single barbarian or hero and ditching. And we finally get some security for new clan heads who have no choice but to take what they can get.
And again, people who were opted out or kicked wouldn't be penalized if they were included in war against their will. So people couldn't be held hostage either.
It absolutely is a management problem. If other clans don't have these issues then it means you are doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iydris
Also your solution would just cause people to drop a barb and quit or just try to farm some war bases
No it wouldn't and no it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somethingnotalreadypicked
New clans don't have the option of core groups of high end players, everyone in their entire clan is new and they still have to deal with it. It is absolutely not a clan management issue for newer clans. It's a daily reality. Regardless of who you are. I'm living proof of that.
And you didn't read my post at all.
Something like if you leave at all during war (outside being kicked) you immediately get the penalty. Even if you've used your attacks.
This means that if you leave, even after your attacks have been used, during the two day period of war, if you were opted in and not kicked, you'd receive the penalty. This means that players couldn't simply drop a barb or a hero and ditch. They would have to stay until the end of war, if they were opted in for that war.
This way the system couldn't be tricked, and if they still wanted to leave they could by asking to be kicked, or opting out of the next war, so that even if they were included, they could leave penalty free.
Try reading next time. This way we have protection from war hoppers, and people can still leave anytime they want. Everyone wins, and everyone gets protected.
Anyway : Newer clans don't have the same established playerbase and vetting processes older, more established clans do. When your new you pretty much have to take who you can get for at least the first few months. And new players absolutely must be put in war during said time because otherwise you simply don't have enough players for even a 10v10.
If your an older, established clan and having these issues then yes. It's a clan management issue. For newer clans without those perks, without that established routine, who are at the bottom of the rung, it's just reality. Look at things from our perspective.
It has nothing to do with clan management. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it doesn't matter how professional you are, what your plans on, how good your clan description looks, or how active or helpful or knowledgeable you are. Hoppers will hop. And, in my eyes, we need a protection system.
For new clans if anything else.
Hoppers will find ways around these penalties just like they do now weather it's sitting clanless, finding small clan or going to a request & leave clan for troops. Even if it's a month you would never know they had the penalty after it expires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iydris
As you said newer clans should expect hopper/no shows for a few months. That also doesn't mean go from a 10vs10 to a 20vs20 because you recruited 10 more in one day.
According to the OP's recruitment thread they are a level 10 clan looking for th9-10s. Is this still not a management issue?
If clan management cannot adequately judge the character of those that they are recruiting and managing then that is a clan management issue. You saying otherwise shows that you do not understand clan management.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iydris
Your way, clans would have people whose only way out would be to be so disruptive that they get kicked, obviously after filling war CCs with WBs several times and doing two one-barb drop attacks in war. And you say that others have no ideas of the realities? People saying that it is a clan management issue have lived through starting clans, are currently running clans, it is the voice of experience that you have said is lies and offensive to you. It is you who does not possess the knowledge to comment, as evinced by your suggestions.
How do you suppose older, established clans go to where they are now? They managed their applicants and members, spotted those who would most likely hop or be disruptive and declined their applications, only put them in war if they were sure of being able to cover them, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iydris
That you equate good management with things like a "professional clan description", donations, etc, again shows that you do not understand management. You say that management cannot prevent hoppers from hopping and you are right in that. What you seem incapable of seeing is that good management can spot someone who is likely to hop and either not accept them at all or put them in a position where any damage that they do do when they inevitably hop is minimised.
It IS a clan management problem. Clans don't follow those practices because they are older and more established, its because they do that stuff is how they became older and more established. A new clan needs to establish and enforce an established routine and thats the leaders job to do that or he will stay bottom of the rung.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iydris
it is not a leaders job to cry about how hard it is to be leader.
You guys are mad at hoppers, I get it. But In your anger you have decided its best to just punish everybody. The things you suggest will hurt people that travel for legitimate reasons and thats not fair. Thats why pretty much everything you talk about cant be done. The ball is back in your court.
It takes maturity and strength to admit when you are wrong and that the responsibility to fix lies with you. But that is another one of the tough things about being leader that you have to do that over and over so if you come to the forum Having fits and refusing to listen you are just further proving to the people here where your clan's problem is really. Sorry guys.
By the way, nobody here is from SC. We dont have the ability to decide whether or not your idea can be implemented. This is not a fast channel to SC to tell them to do stuff, thats not the type of help the forum is here for. What the forum does offer is a lot of game knowledge and experience here (not speaking of any one member its to total body of members) and so the guys here, while not able to change the game, can tell you how to be successful in the game as it works today. The advice they have given you is good stuff and you should be heeding it and learning the things they are telling you.
Im sorry if they are telling you how to do the work better when you really want someone to just do it for you. Im sorry you want guys to tell you how wise and great you are and that your problems arent your fault. But if you think it through, nobody helps you by doing that. True help is what guys are doing here telling you how to succeed in the game as it works today. Since they are guys that are not having a problem doing the things you say you cant, you should listen.
Completely wrong on each and every level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspex
First, you obviously didn't read my post.
My system would make it completely impossible to "drop a barb and leave".
Essentially, under the proposed system, if you leave at all during the 48 hours of war, outside of being kicked and as long as you were opted in for war, you would receive a penalty. Even if you used both attacks first.
This prevents people from leaving under any circumstance outside of being kicked, which removes the possibility of war deserters.
It also beneits them as well, since they can just as easily not opt in for war, so that if they were put in war when marked as "opted out" they wouldn't receive a penalty for leaving. They can also simply ask to be kicked after using their attacks.
Everyone benefits from this type of system. Clan heads get security and protection from deserters, players can't be held hostage since they have the ability to opt out pre-war which allows them to leave penalty free if put in a war they wanted no part of, and no one can just "drop a barb and leave." The system would also penalize you for waiting and using neither attack but not leaving, and would be smart enough to tell a full army attack from a barb attack, so that someone couldn't just drop a barbarian on both attacks, then wait out the war.
In this way, there would be no way to trick the system, and players who opted in and asked to be put in war would be forced to use both attacks during said war, as serious attempts, or face penalties.
Second : As I explain above in clear terms, it absolutely is not a clan management issue. It's a daily reality for brand new clans. I already go over the irrefutable fact that brand new clans do not have established routines, high level players outside the scope of the leader, and for the first few months of existence practically every single person in the clan is going to have a "new" badge, meaning that suggestions such as "don't put new players in war" might work for a level 5 and up clan, they don't for a level 1-4 clan. Certain things that work for higher level clans just don't for newer clans because of the realities of their situation, which in way reflect clan leadership, and are completely outside of their control.
You can control who to let into the clan, you can control who stays in the clan, and you can control who wars. But you cannot force people to war if they don't want too, you can't force people to show up and guarantee they'll use both attacks, you can't force people to stay.
No matter how much you donate, how active you are, how often you hold recruitment sessions, and no matter the circumstance. Hoppers will hop, and deserters will let everyone down. That in no way reflects back on whoever happens to be running said brand new clan.
That, my friend, is the reality of recruitment for brand new clans.
And that, unarguably and by extension, has absolutely nothing to do with who runs the clan.
Yes, many of those issues and the solutions, as I go over above, right themselves as your clan gets bigger and more established and you have entire teams of dedicated players waiting at the ready. When you can afford to be more picky with who gets to come to your clan and who gets invited, and you have more vetting options and more choice.
Newer clans do not have that luxury, and hence for them, it absolutely in no war has anything to do with clan management.
Third, I very much do have the ability to run a clan. And saying I don't just shows immaturity in that your comfortable harassing and lying about others without knowing them at all. Maybe try doing a bit of research or understanding the game and the reality of recruitment and player retention for brand new clans just a little bit before making snide comments about people you so clearly misjudge. Just a suggestion.
Oh, and further proof you didn't even read my post. Had you actually read my post, you'd be well aware that I already noted that if your a high level clans having the same issues as a low level one, then it becomes a clan management issue. But only for high level clans. So yes, boiling it down to "bad clan management" is wrong and offensive to new clans, especially when it so clearly isn't the case. You can be the best clan leader in the entire world and still face the same problems.
Just an added FYI : But "good management" is almost entirely focused on donations, a professional clan description, your attitude, your aptness for spotting flaky players, and your general level of activity. Especially in clans like mine that are not war, but family and farming focused, and who only war out of necessity to level. So wrong again there bud. General leadership activity levels do matter.
It is still a clan management issue. With a few exceptions, we all started out as new clans and we all went through similar issues during wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iydris
Successful long term clans have developed techniques and practices that minimize the impact of people leaving during wars. Newer clans could do far worse than adopting the techniques and practices of long term clans but first they need to recognize uncontrolled growth is a recipe for disaster in most cases.
Stop asking for SC to create special rules for circumstances easily avoided. Simple.
You are correct. Hoppers be hoppers. Now take the next step. Protect YOURSELF.