offense is op at th9 and below, and an attack strategy we are using

Ladies and Gents,

Offense is preposterously op at th9 and below. The loon change makes almost any th9 simply pentable, is that a word?

We are having essentially total success against any th9 or 9.5, anything that isn't a built up th10, with a really really dumb attack strategy. Its a penta-loon, but you burn 1 hound and a few loons as a "lure squad", basically you send in X loons and 1 hound, almost always the CC hound (the level 4), with a goal of luring the CC, maybe triggering some traps, and killing some defenses and 1 air D.

This creates nice pathing for the quad-hound attack to follow, you simply burn the royals to kill the CC troops (and 5 archers) and then carry on with the rest of it. The queen is simply ignored, even if level 30+, if you can get good pathing and an air D, and a few defenses, the queen just eventually dies somehow. Its sloppy, it wouldn't make jaek from juanhives channel as a super pretty raid, and it essentially never fails. Loons are so op, you end a raid typically with so many up, eventually they just bomb her and thats that. Or pups, or loon drops, or god knows what, sometimes shes still alive as the 3 star is registered. But to deal with her does require those 5 hounds, 4 + the cc hound for the lure squad.

I'll say our success rate on max d th9s or 9.5s is 90% or better with this strategy.

fwiw

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Originally Posted by Humbob

Ladies and Gents,

Offense is preposterously op at th9 and below. The loon change makes almost any th9 simply pentable, is that a word?

We are having essentially total success against any th9 or 9.5, anything that isn't a built up th10, with a really really dumb attack strategy. Its a penta-loon, but you burn 1 hound and a few loons as a "lure squad", basically you send in X loons and 1 hound, almost always the CC hound (the level 4), with a goal of luring the CC, maybe triggering some traps, and killing some defenses and 1 air D.

This creates nice pathing for the quad-hound attack to follow, you simply burn the royals to kill the CC troops (and 5 archers) and then carry on with the rest of it. The queen is simply ignored, even if level 30+, if you can get good pathing and an air D, and a few defenses, the queen just eventually dies somehow. Its sloppy, it wouldn't make jaek from juanhives channel as a super pretty raid, and it essentially never fails. Loons are so op, you end a raid typically with so many up, eventually they just bomb her and thats that. Or pups, or loon drops, or god knows what, sometimes shes still alive as the 3 star is registered. But to deal with her does require those 5 hounds, 4 + the cc hound for the lure squad.

I'll say our success rate on max d th9s or 9.5s is 90% or better with this strategy.

fwiw

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Loons are definitely strong right now. I've been doing a similar strat called Queen Pop on my mini account & it's a fun attack that lets my pipsqueak 10/10 heroes 3 star a max TH9... if the layout is not too good. I've had fails in farming raids & will take a pass on bases where someone actually put thought into the AD placement.

TH9 isn't really high level game play, anymore though. It's getting close to what TH8 has been for the last several years: the first TH level where you can play around with different strategies, but one where a really experienced player will almost always 3 star. Despite the supposed OP-ness of loons, I see plenty of fails.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

Loons are definitely strong right now. I've been doing a similar strat called Queen Pop on my mini account & it's a fun attack that lets my pipsqueak 10/10 heroes 3 star a max TH9... if the layout is not too good. I've had fails in farming raids & will take a pass on bases where someone actually put thought into the AD placement.

TH9 isn't really high level game play, anymore though. It's getting close to what TH8 has been for the last several years: the first TH level where you can play around with different strategies, but one where a really experienced player will almost always 3 star. Despite the supposed OP-ness of loons, I see plenty of fails.

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Yeah, I'd agree with this. I see so many th9 attacks fail using supposedly OP one-size-fits-all attack strategies...Loons are the current fotm, and yes an elite player will 3* most of the time vs most th9 bases, but the OP is either misremembering b/c his success rate is so high, or he's a solid player who could also 3* th9's with goho, or hghb, or govaho, or any of a half dozen strategies with 3* potential at th9 right now.

why isnt the th9 hit rate in cwl 100%??

This is basically what my clan is doing, either queen pop or straight up penta without thought. This is why I scratch my head when people say TH9 is fun/diversity/strategy. They even claim you need to max multiple armies and have good heroes for war. My accounts have 0/0 heroes and still score many 3 stars against maxed TH9s and 2 stars against maxed TH10

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

This is basically what my clan is doing, either queen pop or straight up penta without thought. This is why I scratch my head when people say TH9 is fun/diversity/strategy. They even claim you need to max multiple armies and have good heroes for war. My accounts have 0/0 heroes and still score many 3 stars against maxed TH9s and 2 stars against maxed TH10

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How do I see this 100% hit rate 9v9 with no heros?

Yes it is an op strategy...in skilled hands only. I very much doubt that for the average clashers, the success rate vs max th9 is higher than 20%...

This reminds me the same discussion about th8 should be destroyed by dragons...yet in reality, from what we experience in our clan, the success rate is less than 50%...

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

How do I see this 100% hit rate 9v9 with no heros?

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I haven't seen the hit rate for TH9 v TH9 for this season, but it was way up after the loon buff last season. There are obviously differences between the quality of layouts in CWL vs most random spins. Players that will mindlessly 3 star common Internet bases will have more challenges facing a well designed custom base layout.

Ry, you really need to think before you post, unless your intent is to lob pointlessly inflammatory bombs into every thread. Take a look at my post. In the hands of a skilled & experienced player, TH9 is becoming a very easy 3 star. If a base is too focused on stopping the loon attacks described here, it's going to be vulnerable to something else. It's getting pretty close to trying to make a TH8 that can defend all of the comps available to max TH8 (you can't). It's not easy for players coming in to TH9 for the first time, but neither is any other TH. I see TH9 turning into a stepping stone to serious play at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if CWL is TH10 & up the moment TH12 comes out.

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Originally Posted by CheckMate99

Yes it is an op strategy...in skilled hands only. I very much doubt that for the average clashers, the success rate vs max th9 is higher than 20%...

This reminds me the same discussion about th8 should be destroyed by dragons...yet in reality, from what we experience in our clan, the success rate is less than 50%...

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Now, that's a sensible post! I suspect certain people using CWL as an example would scoff at anyone suggesting TH8 is an enduring challenge, but it's a challenge for players coming in to it for the first time. TH8 has a good balance for what it is: a stepping stone to higher levels.

I actually agree with Ry about TH9 being reasonably balanced. I probably disagree with him about it being a challenge for experienced players.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

I haven't seen the hit rate for TH9 v TH9 for this season, but it was way up after the loon buff last season. There are obviously differences between the quality of layouts in CWL vs most random spins. Players that will mindlessly 3 star common Internet bases will have more challenges facing a well designed custom base layout.

Ry, you really need to think before you post, unless your intent is to lob pointlessly inflammatory bombs into every thread. Take a look at my post. In the hands of a skilled & experienced player, TH9 is becoming a very easy 3 star. If a base is too focused on stopping the loon attacks described here, it's going to be vulnerable to something else. It's getting pretty close to trying to make a TH8 that can defend all of the comps available to max TH8 (you can't). It's not easy for players coming in to TH9 for the first time, but neither is any other TH. I see TH9 turning into a stepping stone to serious play at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if CWL is TH10 & up the moment TH12 comes out.

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You make up stuff I didn't post to fit your narrative lol. Then accuse me of thread dumping? Hello there kettle!

We got a thread where a dip specialist says 9 is too easy ; yet we have no proof. The only facts we can find are cwl hit rates. Unless you have some other way to track it. The cwl hit rates mostly ensure players aren't hitting Internet style trophy bases with 15 /15 heros and grape walls, but they are indeed hitting 69k and higher bases at 60-70%

All I asked is where I can see these amazing no hero attacks on maxed th9 as sin and op state, as I would like to hit 100% with my 9 as well . I figure these amazing attacks are YouTube somewhere ?

Last time I played a base through 8, I think I only hogged with cc bowlers and hit pretty close to 100% while I was there. Far cry from th9. But I do think the next slight offensive buff will tIP 9 and make the landing spot for permabasers who war

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

This is basically what my clan is doing, either queen pop or straight up penta without thought. This is why I scratch my head when people say TH9 is fun/diversity/strategy. They even claim you need to max multiple armies and have good heroes for war. My accounts have 0/0 heroes and still score many 3 stars against maxed TH9s and 2 stars against maxed TH10

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

How do I see this 100% hit rate 9v9 with no heros?

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SOD, you're pulling extremely weak competition b/c of your engineered roster, that is not necessarily indicative of what serious war clans are seeing day in and day out.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

I haven't seen the hit rate for TH9 v TH9 for this season, but it was way up after the loon buff last season. There are obviously differences between the quality of layouts in CWL vs most random spins. Players that will mindlessly 3 star common Internet bases will have more challenges facing a well designed custom base layout.

Ry, you really need to think before you post, unless your intent is to lob pointlessly inflammatory bombs into every thread. Take a look at my post. In the hands of a skilled & experienced player, TH9 is becoming a very easy 3 star. If a base is too focused on stopping the loon attacks described here, it's going to be vulnerable to something else. It's getting pretty close to trying to make a TH8 that can defend all of the comps available to max TH8 (you can't). It's not easy for players coming in to TH9 for the first time, but neither is any other TH. I see TH9 turning into a stepping stone to serious play at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if CWL is TH10 & up the moment TH12 comes out.

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I didn't think that his post was inflammatory tbh, if anything SOD's experience is lacking in this arena I think.

As far as your comment about CWL, I agree, it should already be th10+, and I would be surprised if it didn't go there once th12 comes out, if not sooner.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

You make up stuff I didn't post to fit your narrative lol. Then accuse me of thread dumping? Hello there kettle!

We got a thread where a dip specialist says 9 is too easy ; yet we have no proof. The only facts we can find are cwl hit rates. Unless you have some other way to track it. The cwl hit rates mostly ensure players aren't hitting Internet style trophy bases with 15 /15 heros and grape walls, but they are indeed hitting 69k and higher bases at 60-70%

All I asked is where I can see these amazing no hero attacks on maxed th9 as sin and op state, as I would like to hit 100% with my 9 as well . I figure these amazing attacks are YouTube somewhere ?

Last time I played a base through 8, I think I only hogged with cc bowlers and hit pretty close to 100% while I was there. Far cry from th9. But I do think the next slight offensive buff will tIP 9 and make the landing spot for permabasers who war

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OP did not state that he could get consistent 3* without heroes, that was just SOD. And btw, I know a guy who is universally acclaimed as a stud th9 attacker, he has the hardware to prove it, and after numerous wars with him I've yet to see him successfully 3* a max th9 with sub 5/5 heroes.

So SOD, I think that it's time for you to invite somebody to your clan so that he can bear witness to the "many" 3* th9 on max th9 war attacks without any heroes that you claim to be achieving.

This post demonstrates how much more difficult base design is than attack planning.

Base design requires mastery while attack planning requires lower levels of proficiency gained mostly through repetition and a relatively loose understanding of key objectives.

There are players and teams focused on base design who are capable of building max TH9 bases that most players will be hard pressed to 3 star with popular meta 1 and 2 phased attacks, especially on fresh hits and at OP hit rate.

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

SOD, you're pulling extremely weak competition b/c of your engineered roster, that is not necessarily indicative of what serious war clans are seeing day in and day out.

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Don't know why you need to be inflammatory and bash me 3 separate times within 2 posts

My roster pulls tons of maxed TH9s, just that we have the infernos to stop their 30/30. We are always on the inferno side in the infernos vs heroes debate.

The best bases are dipped, 10 bowlers and any TH9 base is done, regardless of what heroes the attacker has, only skill needed. Most common bases can be easily bowler-walked by a TH9, those anti-3 with ADs on one side of the base are easy meat to this strategy. Then once 2 ADs are down, send 3 hounds and heal spells to win the base. Sometimes you can't do that so a zapquake is needed, but heal spells dominate as well. Sometimes cc hog+heal can take out an AD easily and lure cc at the same time.

Enemies tend to copy cwl bases, so not many are easy pushovers as you might think. But even the best cwl bases have glaring weaknesses, they expect to be hit by a particular army from a particular direction. We just spam penta on most bases and we can easily get many 3 stars before the hard hitters use those scouts to tailor 3 star attacks

Who says engineers have no skill? To compensate for no heroes, I'd wager that more skill is needed

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Who says engineers have no skill? To compensate for no heroes, I'd wager that more skill is needed

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Nobody I know. They say it takes no skill to be an engineer. Big difference.
I would have to agree with most of what's being said however, Loons are OP at TH9.
They are also the predominant 3 star attack strategy at TH10 too.
But not everybody is comfortable with using loons because of the 1 star risks involved, which I'm sure effects decision making for many clans.

WHAT
IS
THIS
?

M8, r u sure uve got it the right way round? Offence is srsly UNDERPOWERED at TH10 and below, its the TH11's who have offence so OP, that they can 3 star other TH11s ez

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Nobody I know. They say it takes no skill to be an engineer. Big difference.
I would have to agree with most of what's being said however, Loons are OP at TH9.
They are also the predominant 3 star attack strategy at TH10 too.
But not everybody is comfortable with using loons because of the 1 star risks involved, which I'm sure effects decision making for many clans.

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This.

We have th11 through 9 all running lavaloons, kill squads or not. The bottom end is duplicated, so not much fear there: someone else can pick up.

On the top end, however, we have to think seriously whether we are going for 2 stars or 3. And a two-star strategy almost always calls for a lower-risk ground attack.

If your clan can guarantee three stars hitting across the aisle, well, you're better than we are and deserve all your wins.

I still feel that level 12 archer towers should be dropped to TH9. It aids in the balance of that TH level, possibly the level 8 wizard tower.

I'd love to see some replays of these automatic TH9 3* with loons. I notice both players saying it's an automatic kill are in engineered clans, so probably not seeing the same quite the same bases as others are.

I do think loons are OP, but it's not an automatic kill against a modern base. If the airdef is laid out in anything resembling a rectangle then the base is a year out of date and asking to be looned - but current TH9 bases aren't so simple. We had 3 clans recently who literally did spam lavaloon on every single one of our TH9s and 9.5s. One of those clans only lost by 5*. Another was down 8* and the last was in double digits. Not great results in a 30v war!

We've also had a couple of clans do QW + valks for every single attack at TH9/9.5. That's actually had better results they're able to clear all the TH9s barring one engineered base (and they probably did use some 9.5s on 9s).

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

We just spam penta on most bases

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I havent seen a penta in like, 3-4 months. how do i see pentas wrecking solid maxed out th9 bases with no heros?

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Originally Posted by Skrags

They are also the predominant 3 star attack strategy at TH10 too.

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I see more loons at 10 then 9 these days. 10v10 is only loon. maybe gobowitch if the bases is lower.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Who says engineers have no skill? To compensate for no heroes, I'd wager that more skill is needed

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How does this come into the play?

And if you are going to ask "who says engineers have no skill?", then the answer without doubt is me. 90% of the engineered clans we face have zero skill. They are so used to dips and weak bases than when they get another engineered clan as an opponent, they fail horribly. In our last war they couldn't take out our 72 and 70 weight 9.5s on top with lvl6 warden and maxed bowlers.

In contrast when we face a non-engineered clan, I see much better attackers most of the time. They can't really win - because it's hard to take down our engineered bases with th9 armies, and we do have 10-12 th10 attacks to cleanup their th9s - but they do get up to 1-2 stars below perfect.

Vikingchief was in visiting in my clan when this last war started, he can tell you what an advantage the enemy had over us. They weren't just engineered, they had the defensive weight advantage on us too - due to a mismatch. Their top 3 all had 3 maxed x-bows and the topmost player also had half of his point defenses at maxed th11 levels. We were expecting a draw or a loss, but ended up with 45-35, with all 4 of their th11 attacks failing on our th9.5s and all of their th9 attacks failing on our th8.5s, the only higher 3 star they got were 2 th10 attacks vs 9.5s. This is not even an exception, this is how most engineered clans are.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

This is basically what my clan is doing, either queen pop or straight up penta without thought. This is why I scratch my head when people say TH9 is fun/diversity/strategy. They even claim you need to max multiple armies and have good heroes for war. My accounts have 0/0 heroes and still score many 3 stars against maxed TH9s and 2 stars against maxed TH10

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Don't know why you need to be inflammatory and bash me 3 separate times within 2 posts

My roster pulls tons of maxed TH9s, just that we have the infernos to stop their 30/30. We are always on the inferno side in the infernos vs heroes debate.

The best bases are dipped, 10 bowlers and any TH9 base is done, regardless of what heroes the attacker has, only skill needed. Most common bases can be easily bowler-walked by a TH9, those anti-3 with ADs on one side of the base are easy meat to this strategy. Then once 2 ADs are down, send 3 hounds and heal spells to win the base. Sometimes you can't do that so a zapquake is needed, but heal spells dominate as well. Sometimes cc hog+heal can take out an AD easily and lure cc at the same time.

Enemies tend to copy cwl bases, so not many are easy pushovers as you might think. But even the best cwl bases have glaring weaknesses, they expect to be hit by a particular army from a particular direction. We just spam penta on most bases and we can easily get many 3 stars before the hard hitters use those scouts to tailor 3 star attacks

Who says engineers have no skill? To compensate for no heroes, I'd wager that more skill is needed

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I love the moving of the goalposts. First it's "we just spam penta at everything without heroes and it's an automatic 3* against 9s and 2* against 10s."

Then it's "my clan pulls tons of max th9s, they're matched against TH10s though cause we engineer."

"the best th9 bases are dipped, which is a luxury we have because we're an engineered clan, 10 bowlers from a th10 will take down th9s." (Really, you don't say, color me shocked!)

"we bowler walk one side of base, then lavaloon the backside" (what happenened to th9 just spamming penta on fellow th9!?)

and finally, "we just spam penta on MOST bases and can easily get MANY 3 stars BEFORE THE HARD HITTERS USE THOSE SCOUTS TO TAILOR 3 STAR ATTACKS."

Man, it's amazing how fast the initial claim was backed off from without actually admitting it was nothing more than bravado from the start. It goes from "spam penta without heroes, automatic 3*," to engineered th10 dips, and bowler walks, and scouts for heavy hitters. Again, considering the source I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Don't know why you need to be inflammatory and bash me 3 separate times within 2 posts

My roster pulls tons of maxed TH9s, just that we have the infernos to stop their 30/30. We are always on the inferno side in the infernos vs heroes debate.

The best bases are dipped, 10 bowlers and any TH9 base is done, regardless of what heroes the attacker has, only skill needed. Most common bases can be easily bowler-walked by a TH9, those anti-3 with ADs on one side of the base are easy meat to this strategy. Then once 2 ADs are down, send 3 hounds and heal spells to win the base. Sometimes you can't do that so a zapquake is needed, but heal spells dominate as well. Sometimes cc hog+heal can take out an AD easily and lure cc at the same time.

Enemies tend to copy cwl bases, so not many are easy pushovers as you might think. But even the best cwl bases have glaring weaknesses, they expect to be hit by a particular army from a particular direction. We just spam penta on most bases and we can easily get many 3 stars before the hard hitters use those scouts to tailor 3 star attacks

Who says engineers have no skill? To compensate for no heroes, I'd wager that more skill is needed

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I wasn't bashing you at all, why are you being so defensive? I merely stated that your experience is not necessarily indicative of the wider player base due to your war roster engineering. I will say, however, that you kind of forgot to mention that you were claiming that heroes are not necessary to 3* a th9 using a DIP ATTACK FROM A TH10. That's a huge difference from a th9 mirror 3*.

Neither I nor anybody else in this thread needs a lesson from you on how beat up on a weaker base, with or without heroes.

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

I'd love to see some replays of these automatic TH9 3* with loons. I notice both players saying it's an automatic kill are in engineered clans, so probably not seeing the same quite the same bases as others are.

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Is Onyx attacking you too, SOD? Because he just said exactly the same thing I did, with exactly the same lack of ill intent I'd wager.

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

I love the moving of the goalposts. First it's "we just spam penta at everything without heroes and it's an automatic 3* against 9s and 2* against 10s."

Then it's "my clan pulls tons of max th9s, they're matched against TH10s though cause we engineer."

"the best th9 bases are dipped, which is a luxury we have because we're an engineered clan, 10 bowlers from a th10 will take down th9s." (Really, you don't say, color me shocked!)

"we bowler walk one side of base, then lavaloon the backside" (what happenened to th9 just spamming penta on fellow th9!?)

and finally, "we just spam penta on MOST bases and can easily get MANY 3 stars BEFORE THE HARD HITTERS USE THOSE SCOUTS TO TAILOR 3 STAR ATTACKS."

Man, it's amazing how fast the initial claim was backed off from without actually admitting it was nothing more than bravado from the start. It goes from "spam penta without heroes, automatic 3*," to engineered th10 dips, and bowler walks, and scouts for heavy hitters. Again, considering the source I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!

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Ok, SOD, I'll give you that this looks kinda aggressive. Accurate, but aggressive. Perhaps you were seeing the future and somehow mistook me for nerfedname?

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Originally Posted by dorsan

How does this come into the play?

And if you are going to ask "who says engineers have no skill?", then the answer without doubt is me. 90% of the engineered clans we face have zero skill. They are so used to dips and weak bases than when they get another engineered clan as an opponent, they fail horribly. In our last war they couldn't take out our 72 and 70 weight 9.5s on top with lvl6 warden and maxed bowlers.

In contrast when we face a non-engineered clan, I see much better attackers most of the time. They can't really win - because it's hard to take down our engineered bases with th9 armies, and we do have 10-12 th10 attacks to cleanup their th9s - but they do get up to 1-2 stars below perfect.

Vikingchief was in visiting in my clan when this last war started, he can tell you what an advantage the enemy had over us. They weren't just engineered, they had the defensive weight advantage on us too - due to a mismatch. Their top 3 all had 3 maxed x-bows and the topmost player also had half of his point defenses at maxed th11 levels. We were expecting a draw or a loss, but ended up with 45-35, with all 4 of their th11 attacks failing on our th9.5s and all of their th9 attacks failing on our th8.5s, the only higher 3 star they got were 2 th10 attacks vs 9.5s. This is not even an exception, this is how most engineered clans are.

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I'd say that it depends. Certainly, many engineered clans get complacent/lazy, or they just get too used to dip attacks and forget or never learn how to attack their mirror. However, some engineered clans have excellent skills. I'd say that it's probably not much different from facing a balanced clan, sometimes they're studs, sometimes they're average, and sometimes they're duds.

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Originally Posted by dorsan

And if you are going to ask "who says engineers have no skill?", then the answer without doubt is me. <snip>

This is not even an exception, this is how most engineered clans are.

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I have to agree in the main but I will say that as we have progressed to having multiple max TH11's to go with our TH10/9.XX bases, we have seen some solid attackers and have had some really close wars...

Also, dips are common everywhere at TH10/11 in my experience and not just in engineered clans...

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

I'd say that it depends. Certainly, many engineered clans get complacent/lazy, or they just get too used to dip attacks and forget or never learn how to attack their mirror. However, some engineered clans have excellent skills. I'd say that it's probably not much different from facing a balanced clan, sometimes they're studs, sometimes they're average, and sometimes they're duds.

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Just like most other clans that I have seen, the range of skills falls into those basic categories...

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Originally Posted by dorsan

How does this come into the play?

And if you are going to ask "who says engineers have no skill?", then the answer without doubt is me. 90% of the engineered clans we face have zero skill. They are so used to dips and weak bases than when they get another engineered clan as an opponent, they fail horribly. In our last war they couldn't take out our 72 and 70 weight 9.5s on top with lvl6 warden and maxed bowlers.

In contrast when we face a non-engineered clan, I see much better attackers most of the time. They can't really win - because it's hard to take down our engineered bases with th9 armies, and we do have 10-12 th10 attacks to cleanup their th9s - but they do get up to 1-2 stars below perfect.

Vikingchief was in visiting in my clan when this last war started, he can tell you what an advantage the enemy had over us. They weren't just engineered, they had the defensive weight advantage on us too - due to a mismatch. Their top 3 all had 3 maxed x-bows and the topmost player also had half of his point defenses at maxed th11 levels. We were expecting a draw or a loss, but ended up with 45-35, with all 4 of their th11 attacks failing on our th9.5s and all of their th9 attacks failing on our th8.5s, the only higher 3 star they got were 2 th10 attacks vs 9.5s. This is not even an exception, this is how most engineered clans are.

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I tend to agree with most of what you say, but shaking my head at the "who says.. no skill.. I do". There is a huge difference between a truly engineered clan, anchors, high heroes, high walls up top. Strong non inferno upper, developed th9's, and dless on bottom vs. most of the newly engineered clans, with a handful of people who have engineered bases. The clans that have been engineering for a while, are the only ones that are organized and know how to attack.

The balanced base clans are at a disadvantage, but we find that these are the ones who can't clear our th9's without dipping, can't clear our .5's, and fail against our top. These are the clans that should be able to challenge, but generally don't.

I have seen great attacks from dless, great attacks from max. I've seen laughable attacks from engineered, laughable from max. I don't think there is any correlation from maxing your base both offense and defense attacks and war attacks. You can max a th11 with barch, enough nexts, time, gems. Doesn't mean you can plan and execute a war attack.

As I keep reading and rereading, I seem to be confused here. At no point did I say penta was a 100% surefire way to 3 star without heroes. The only thing I said was "many 3 stars", I'll let you interpret what percentage that means. Yet people see my name and start bashing without rational thought.

I'd tend to say Golem+bowlers killsquad + backend laloon (3 or 2 hounds depends) is much more reliable
I only see Pentas on symmetrical bases, or bases where it's know there are no air targeting units in cc

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

As I keep reading and rereading, I seem to be confused here. At no point did I say penta was a 100% surefire way to 3 star without heroes. The only thing I said was "many 3 stars", I'll let you interpret what percentage that means. Yet people see my name and start bashing without rational thought.

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Noone (in regular maxed mixed war clans) Pentas anymore buddy. Quad hound/ loon these days.

That's how we know.... what nerfedname said...

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

Noone (in regular maxed mixed war clans) Pentas anymore buddy. Quad hound/ loon these days.

That's how we know.... what nerfedname said...

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I must have missed the spot at which it was decided we were only talking about "regular maxed mixed war clans" - maybe you could point that out? Or is this another case of the "maxed war clan" guys thinking that they are the only ones who matter?

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Originally Posted by whp4

I must have missed the spot at which it was decided we were only talking about "regular maxed mixed war clans" - maybe you could point that out? Or is this another case of the "maxed war clan" guys thinking that they are the only ones who matter?

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Bruh, I just said I haven't seen a penta in while

Op and sod are the ones claiming you can lob it up for easy 3, if so I need to learn how. Maybe your clan always 3s 9v9 with this and I can come watch?

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

Bruh, I just said I haven't seen a penta in while

Op and sod are the ones claiming you can lob it up for easy 3, if so I need to learn how. Maybe your clan always 3s 9v9 with this and I can come watch?

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How often do you see outdated bases with symmetrical layouts in war?

When was the last time your clan had a war where every enemy TH9 wasn't 3 starred?

How many of those 3 stars were done by armies using laloon as a major component?

It's pretty obvious that people's opinions on how 'OP' loons are right now depends a lot on whether they're in a clan that's using poor/outdated layouts that are easy pickings for the pentaloon strategy the OP described. In the CWL, laloon variations are still the dominant TH9 attack.

Overall, the 3 star rates for experienced TH9 attackers are getting pretty high, even against well designed CWL type bases. Either offense gets nerfed or TH9 becomes irrelevant to the serious war scene.

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Originally Posted by Syxic

WHAT
IS
THIS
?

M8, r u sure uve got it the right way round? Offence is srsly UNDERPOWERED at TH10 and below, its the TH11's who have offence so OP, that they can 3 star other TH11s ez

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I have to suspect you aren't a TH11. While TH11 v TH11 hit rates are somewhat better than TH10 v TH10, they are way below TH9 v TH9. An experienced player can faceroll the typical TH9 layouts most casual clans put up in war. Even the best designers can't make a base that will defend more than twice against skilled TH9 attackers. We might as well be arguing about how OP GoHo is at TH8. These are levels that provide an appropriate challenge to players who are going through them for the first time. Making them balanced for really skilled players would ruin the experience for the average players.

The perma-maxed TH9s need to hit the upgrade button already.

Sssshhhhhh I have a plan. It's more than a little crazy I admit, but hey , that's just the way I roll these days....er...yeah, anyway...

Make the Bomb Tower..........target air.
And, as an added plus, maybe even the Engineers will have to start building them.....er..yeah right😁

What do you Think? 🤔

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Sssshhhhhh I have a plan. It's more than a little crazy I admit, but hey , that's just the way I roll these days....er...yeah, anyway...

Make the Bomb Tower..........target air.
And, as an added plus, maybe even the Engineers will have to start building them.....er..yeah right😁

What do you Think? 🤔

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I think that BT are arguably the most useless defense in the game; we don't upgrade them but if SC takes your suggestion to have them target air, then I will reconsider! :cool:

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Originally Posted by whp4

I must have missed the spot at which it was decided we were only talking about "regular maxed mixed war clans" - maybe you could point that out? Or is this another case of the "maxed war clan" guys thinking that they are the only ones who matter?

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He didn't say that we were talking about regular maxed clans, or only those matter. However they do form a convenient point of reference - when talking about regular maxed clans warring each other we know what defences and troops we are talking about. Whereas with engineered clans there's always a suspicion things may not be what they seem. So when an engineer says that pentalava 3*s every TH9 we don't know how complete the defences are, or how many wardens they might have helping the attacks. The fact that clans doing "regular" TH9vTH9 attacks don't use the "OP" strategy at all because it's weaker than quattro-lava does strongly imply that something is amiss.

3/2 lava loon = almost guaranteed at least 1 star and a decent chance of 3 no matter how weak heroes are.

Pentaloon= better chance at 2 and lower chance at 3 (fewer loons and bad luck(ie pathing mistake) with normal heroes). With sub 15 heroes probably a better chance at 3.

Max ad's close together near deep queen with tough lure and troublesome sweepers tends to make me use more then the default 2+cc lavas if I can't avoid the base altogether on my rushed lavaloon and nothing else account (built/building to help clan clean near max 9s) .

Several times I've considered using a lava on the lure, but always considered it too much space. However, my baby heroes really are iffy at getting the queen and cc taken care of if it is a near max with 25 plus heroes, so I'll probably try it next time I'm tempted.

hey, this turned into quite a thread.

we are a formerly engineered clan that currently isn't even really a clan at all that has at most 7 and often just 5 players with at most 9 and typically 6-7 available accounts. Our hit rate needs to be essentially total to function. It is.

The top bases we face are almost always 9.5s with good heroes, this war it had th10 tesla and a 3rd xbow level 3, the rest max th9. the next 2 were max th9 also, their bases were not good. In any case, 10 attacks cleared their 10 bases, every th9 was hit as described above. One guy played all 10 attacks this time, I think, it got done in the middle of the night so I think someone was bored.

Nobody here pays enough attention to the "meta" to know whats popular now, but we do see alot of queen island bases. You just start your lalo from the other side to end on the AQ, she dies. I do not think queen island bases are effective at all at th9. I've never thought dead space bases were any good, those are still running around too.

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Originally Posted by CasimirEffect

This post demonstrates how much more difficult base design is than attack planning.

Base design requires mastery while attack planning requires lower levels of proficiency gained mostly through repetition and a relatively loose understanding of key objectives.

There are players and teams focused on base design who are capable of building max TH9 bases that most players will be hard pressed to 3 star with popular meta 1 and 2 phased attacks, especially on fresh hits and at OP hit rate.

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I do not think this can be argued, by far and away an experienced attacker can make a mockery of the level of base he or she is used to attacking.

Base design is by far more difficult.

I will openly say our bases suck and are terribly outdated, I'm not even sure they have any good characteristic other than generally centralized CCs. They were great once upon a time when double bombs worked and before valks became all the rage. We simply have nobody that cares enough to bother updating them, I copied something off of clash tutor, its no good at all.

But with offense so op now, and it really is, ... the days of my old war base that survived a year without being 3d are just not coming back, not at the weights we operate at. And btw, that base survived dozens of wars in johnnysks's clan, which was balls max th9-11, the same weights you see in the CWL. Today, though, it just fries to valks, too many packed buildings. Heck of a run that thing had, though, heck of a run.

two other things, obviously and this isn't a controversial statement, the average engineer is better than an average player, engineering at least shows you care, caring will at least get you somewhere.

and second, the idea that this magical group of, somehow, morally superior players (in this thread the CWL) exists that is overwhelmingly better than everybody else floating around in clash is still silly, always has been. Don't kid yourselves, as much closet modding as possible occurs in the CWL - thats the nature of the beast, its an organization set up to promote a couple yt channels and glorify its participants as much as possible, and somebody somewhere still thinks nobody will mod for that glory because magically these players are all supreme moral beings?

Its a game and people like to win, thats why they engineered. A very, very few even got it right before supercell made defense the be all end all.

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Originally Posted by Humbob

and second, the idea that this magical group of, somehow, morally superior players (in this thread the CWL) exists that is overwhelmingly better than everybody else floating around in clash is still silly, always has been.

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Lets not make up stuff brah. I used CWL as an example purely on the basis of ; all the attacks are being tracked. So we have data against mostly maxed TH9 bases.

So we can see what this large pool of players is hitting 9v9. ( my clan also tracks it through non CWL wars so I can see it for us , certainly not 100% )

The 2 engineers ( yourself and Sin )are the ones who trotted into a thread and stated they have this "magical" attack strat that always 3s. Not sure if you were calling for a loon nerf or not?

I just want to see it so my hit rate can higher.

Sin walked it back pretty fast, i suppose you will also?

Engineers shouldnt be hitting same TH i was always told, so i thought this proclaimation sounded odd.

And, fyi, there are CWL players who are garbage. lets call them roster fillers.

also, hogs are strong now ;)

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Originally Posted by Humbob

Nobody here pays enough attention to the "meta" to know whats popular now, but we do see alot of queen island bases. You just start your lalo from the other side to end on the AQ, she dies. I do not think queen island bases are effective at all at th9. I've never thought dead space bases were any good, those are still running around too.

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Agreed, many cwl bases are something like this. The thing is, they are trying to stop multi-phase attacks, when you do a simple spam attack they are ill-prepared and can get crushed easily

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Agreed, many cwl bases are something like this. The thing is, they are trying to stop multi-phase attacks, when you do a simple spam attack they are ill-prepared and can get crushed easily

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pics of a "queen island base" ?

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

Lets not make up stuff brah. I used CWL as an example purely on the basis of ; all the attacks are being tracked. So we have data against mostly maxed TH9 bases.

So we can see what this large pool of players is hitting 9v9. ( my clan also tracks it through non CWL wars so I can see it for us , certainly not 100% )

The 2 engineers ( yourself and Sin )are the ones who trotted into a thread and stated they have this "magical" attack strat that always 3s. Not sure if you were calling for a loon nerf or not?

I just want to see it so my hit rate can higher.

Sin walked it back pretty fast, i suppose you will also?

Engineers shouldnt be hitting same TH i was always told, so i thought this proclaimation sounded odd.

And, fyi, there are CWL players who are garbage. lets call them roster fillers.

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magical? yeah I never said magical, or best, or special, I think I did say sloppy. And the 90%+ hit rate is accurate. Pretty sure if you read back you'd see that I specifically said it wasn't pretty or cool, just effective. It is.

And I'm also pretty sure that the term brah is kinda ... well, I hope you aren't a father yet.

sloppy pretty much means magical. anything that implies dump for 3. lot of terms for that floating around. yea, i got kids, but i need to maintain my coolness on the internet to supply them with maximum embarrassment.

90% is still 20-30 % higher then most documented clans. how do i see it? you keep replying, but dont answer how i can see it in action

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

pics of a "queen island base" ?

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http://i.imgur.com/a3HI9oe.jpg

For what it's worth, I pulled this off the other day: (3/3 heroes)

http://i.imgur.com/4sj2wV4.jpg?1

With this guy:

http://i.imgur.com/HvDWhb7.png

AD's are not quite maxed, but xbows were up. I used: 2 Golems 6 wizards 4 wall breakers 8 archers 3 hounds 12 loons 3 rage (dont have haste yet) and a jump.

great info thanks

Great, nerf OP 3-3 heroes. War is totally unfair.

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Originally Posted by Humbob

two other things, obviously and this isn't a controversial statement, the average engineer is better than an average player, engineering at least shows you care, caring will at least get you somewhere.

and second, the idea that this magical group of, somehow, morally superior players (in this thread the CWL) exists that is overwhelmingly better than everybody else floating around in clash is still silly, always has been. Don't kid yourselves, as much closet modding as possible occurs in the CWL - thats the nature of the beast, its an organization set up to promote a couple yt channels and glorify its participants as much as possible, and somebody somewhere still thinks nobody will mod for that glory because magically these players are all supreme moral beings?

Its a game and people like to win, thats why they engineered. A very, very few even got it right before supercell made defense the be all end all.

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While I wouldn't disagree with any of the above, I do think it's necessary to add some balance here!

Firstly, your average player is probably your average casual single account player, the majority. Many (but not all) engineers run multiple accounts, and thus by experience alone, are likely to have more developed skill sets.
By definition, engineers progress their bases with the intention of preying upon relatively weaker opposition. Their goal is not to match bases with equal overall strength. Is dipping a skill?

Secondly, regarding the CWL, as seen recently with one of the clans being disqualified in season 2, the threat of closet modding is still apparent, for the reasons you describe. Without robust internal available checks, it's almost impossible for CWL Clan leaders, and CWL Admins to police themselves with 100% integrity!

As an experienced forum contributor however, I'm sure you know, that the historic murky waters that existed within the realms of TWC v FPC v Engineers was all encompassing.

Engineers wanted to win at all costs, and for the "glory", the poison that is modding, spread throughout all areas of the game!
As for "supreme moral beings", the forum has seen rather a lot of that too.
Personally, I can remember a very successful engineer arguing for months that offensive weight was included within your gold storage aproximations of defensive weight. Nothing I could say would ever change his mind, and he had a fantastic green war log to back up his 'fountain of knowledge'. That fountain seems to have dried up recently!

I would agree, that pre March 2016, there were very few successful engineered clans.

All of the above is purely to add balance to your statement.
I'm very wary of reading about any generalisations within the game, whether that be skill sets, modding, or discussions on moral highgrounds!:)

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Originally Posted by Skrags

While I wouldn't disagree with any of the above, I do think it's necessary to add some balance here!

Firstly, your average player is probably your average casual single account player, the majority. Many (but not all) engineers run multiple accounts, and thus by experience alone, are likely to have more developed skill sets.
By definition, engineers progress their bases with the intention of preying upon relatively weaker opposition. Their goal is not to match bases with equal overall strength. Is dipping a skill?

[snip]
highgrounds!:)

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Personally I don't believe that's "by definition" what engineering is. In our case it was--wow, we are getting our clocks cleaned by these guys who skip xbows and infernoes! How can we get some of that?

Granted this was pretty early on, like mid 2015... And we had a ton of th9 max accounts, including myself. But as we have progressed, we have tried to follow .5 principles, and it's turned our mixed log into about 80% green.

We carry a mixed bag of about 5 different th levels, and wildly varying skill levels... .5 helped. I wouldn't call it seeking out dip attacks so much as preventing a huge disparity in dip attacks.

Our top th9 have gotten pretty good at three stars on opposing top th9--although we typically need 20-25 lvl heroes to do it. No magic pentaloons here. :smirk:

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

How often do you see outdated bases with symmetrical layouts in war?

When was the last time your clan had a war where every enemy TH9 wasn't 3 starred?

How many of those 3 stars were done by armies using laloon as a major component?

It's pretty obvious that people's opinions on how 'OP' loons are right now depends a lot on whether they're in a clan that's using poor/outdated layouts that are easy pickings for the pentaloon strategy the OP described. In the CWL, laloon variations are still the dominant TH9 attack.

Overall, the 3 star rates for experienced TH9 attackers are getting pretty high, even against well designed CWL type bases. Either offense gets nerfed or TH9 becomes irrelevant to the serious war scene.

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Th9 has been irrelevant to the serious war scene for a long time. No reason for it to remain in CWL or any other arranged wars imho.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Agreed, many cwl bases are something like this. The thing is, they are trying to stop multi-phase attacks, when you do a simple spam attack they are ill-prepared and can get crushed easily

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Ok, go join the CWL and "crush easily" a th9 with your th9.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

By definition, engineers progress their bases with the intention of preying upon relatively weaker opposition. Their goal is not to match bases with equal overall strength. Is dipping a skill?

I'm very wary of reading about any generalisations within the game, whether that be skill sets, modding, or discussions on moral highgrounds!:)

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Then why generalize (bold sentences)?
Not all engineers want to ROTF STOMP their opponents. Some don't wanna be ROTF STOMPED.....
This is mentioned in post 73 of this thread --> https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...lgorithm/page8

Tried a bit to replicate the penta attack discussed, anyone making it work? Maybe its the bases I tried, but committing enough loons to get an air def on the pull leaves me with too few to finish so far.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Tried a bit to replicate the penta attack discussed, anyone making it work? Maybe its the bases I tried, but committing enough loons to get an air def on the pull leaves me with too few to finish so far.

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I've not seen that tried, we are still seeing some bases killed by spamming quattro and using poison on the CC. And that's with a reasonably anti-air CC: maybe one valk, but otherwise baby+wizarch. We're just finishing war against yet another clan mostly spamming laloon and while it's true loons are OP and annoying to watch truly idiotic attacks killing some solid TH9s, I wouldn't call it an automatic 3, or a winning strategy

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Tried a bit to replicate the penta attack discussed, anyone making it work? Maybe its the bases I tried, but committing enough loons to get an air def on the pull leaves me with too few to finish so far.

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Totally base dependent Tank.
I do have an easier time with a quad laloon with a zap quake to make it easier to pull the cc.
(sent you a pm)

Thanks, think its the asymmetry of the bases I've tried it on. Trying it with heroes snoozing doesn't help either...

Zapquake is probably a good option for asymmetrical air defs, might play around with that too. I'm generally happier with golaloon or gobolaloon, but I've got some guys that should probably be doing Hail Mary straight laloons.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Thanks, think its the asymmetry of the bases I've tried it on. Trying it with heroes snoozing doesn't help either...

Zapquake is probably a good option for asymmetrical air defs, might play around with that too. I'm generally happier with golaloon or gobolaloon, but I've got some guys that should probably be doing Hail Mary straight laloons.

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In my opinion you cant beat a good kill squad @ th9. There is too much unnecessary risk with leaving the enemy AQ up and depending on poisons to kill the clan castle in an air raid. Maybe you can get away with it as a th10 hitting a th9 on a regular basis with lvl 3 hounds, but with the addition of the second airsweeper, straight lavaloon can be really hard to pull off on a quality base.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Thanks, think its the asymmetry of the bases I've tried it on. Trying it with heroes snoozing doesn't help either...

Zapquake is probably a good option for asymmetrical air defs, might play around with that too. I'm generally happier with golaloon or gobolaloon, but I've got some guys that should probably be doing Hail Mary straight laloons.

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Penta with rages works on outdated, symmetrical layouts. Queen Pop (ZapQuake, Quad Lava) works really well on anything with AQ between 2 AD, but can 3 star almost anything with practice. Did these with 10/10 heroes. One was 66 defense weight, the other 68.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/m0...=w1186-h667-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Xx...=w1186-h667-no

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Tried a bit to replicate the penta attack discussed, anyone making it work? Maybe its the bases I tried, but committing enough loons to get an air def on the pull leaves me with too few to finish so far.

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suicide heros, quad lava, more loon. ymmv

also, look for WT that cover a AD. ( huge nono these days )

I one Upped myself. 3 star with 2/2 heroes:

http://i.imgur.com/8KqoRqZ.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/cjV9J9p.png

Lol, nice! An end-of-raid screenshot with your army comp would be better than the profile. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by HumptyGoblin

Lol, nice! An end-of-raid screenshot with your army comp would be better than the profile. :thumbsup:

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Sorry:

http://i.imgur.com/NMnMoi1.jpg?1

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

The best bases are dipped, 10 bowlers and any TH9 base is done, regardless of what heroes the attacker has, only skill needed. Most common bases can be easily bowler-walked by a TH9, those anti-3 with ADs on one side of the base are easy meat to this strategy. Then once 2 ADs are down, send 3 hounds and heal spells to win the base. Sometimes you can't do that so a zapquake is needed, but heal spells dominate as well. Sometimes cc hog+heal can take out an AD easily and lure cc at the same time.

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How does a TH9 bring 10 bowlers against another TH9?

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Originally Posted by GulMaset

How does a TH9 bring 10 bowlers against another TH9?

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LOL, SOD uses a TH10 to kill off the TH9 ;)

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Originally Posted by Roas

LOL, SOD uses a TH10 to kill off the TH9 ;)

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I believe the word "dip" was in his post, you're not exactly finding out a stunning secret.

It often takes a dip to clear my th9, sometimes our th9s struggle and we need to dip. Wouldn't need to if we were all 3 star specialist champs, but hey I work with what I've got.