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I have been playing Clash of Clans for about 4 years now and am noticing much more engineered clans....I wanted to ask, What is the appeal to engineering a clan? Why do you guys do this? IMHO you cant be a true War Clan while engineered....I have some very strong feelings/opinions about this subject and wanted to hear from the Engineers that think that engineering is FP...Please tell me why you think this way. Thanks
Initially it started because some high level players wanted a different game play.
Soon after others noticed the advantage in it.
Nowadays anyone creates such an account / clan just to be part off the masses.
Know the quote if you can't beat them, join them?
I presume if you are against all forms of engineering you allow TH10s with full guns and 10/10 heroes to war in your clan?
It's FP because SC allows it under its definition of FP. Plain and simple. I am not an engineer btw.
And that's really the root of the discussion. Opinions are like...belly buttons. Everyone's got one. And in other's honest opinions, your opinion is wrong, and engineering is a totally legitimate, viable and respectable strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
As for FP, according to the ToS, it's 100% fair play. Some people will argue about what is or isn't morally fair, but from an objective position, engineering is FP
People do engineering if they are tired of farming or pushing / tired of heavy and hard wars OR if they want to build a green war log.
You can't win from highly engineers but a draw if you are great warrior
People started doing it because they wanted a way to combat mismatches, now they do it to get mismatches in their favor and get their win streak going.
Clans war to win and at the moment that's how you do it
It's up to supercell to make everything in the game worth building. When they realized that people would not build defenses to get an advantage in clan wars they started balancing matchmaking in order to discourage this practice.
In my clan we don't accept engineers. Since we have none, a single engineered base can screw up our matchmaking, and the opposite clan will come with a lot of engineers. Engineers against engineers... let them see who engineers bets. Fair enough.
Why do people continue to say that SC is doing improvements to this in MM, we have never noticed this, we get to a win streak of 6-7 and bam, heavy engineered clan every time. IMHO since we are using that it is for guys who cant stand up head to head in war and need an advantage.
FP is one thing being lame is another thing.
I just want to rant for a minute and not start a new thread.
We are in a war right now 15v15
them
3 11's
2 10's
10 engineered bases from defenseless to .XX (whatever you want to number them)
We have
1 11
1 10
rest 9's
all various progression but war ready on our side the 11 and 10 basically maxed
we cleaned up 6 down on the first hit but now we have 10-12 worthless th9 attacks.
It's not that we will win or lose because it looks like the war may swing either way its the fact that half our clan is stuck either not attacking or hitting bases that are no fun to attack.
Engineering is for the birds really getting old in war.
I'm not sure how we can do our roster any differently and still keep clan mate engaged.
Just frustrating.
I think the main one is to be as strong at the game as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
No matter what your clan's total skill level is, that skill level + engineering is stronger.
I have a TH11 main account and a TH9 wall less account with level 1 of every d
I enjoy playing the game both ways. I love my Th11 and have ALOT of fun hitting the high levels
I also enjoy my TH9, I don't usually war or take it too seriously, I use it to send max drags or loons to my main account
When I do war, I am a TH9 and I am last on our map, this is a massive advantage as I can take out every TH8 and the badly designed TH9 and some decent TH9s this is an advantage as a TH9, if I can go up 6 on the map as the last guy in war
I don't see it as cheating at all or anything to do with fair play
You war to win, and if engineering gives you an advantage, you do whatever you can to win within the rules...
I have no problem facing clans like this, or with people doing it. Again this is a strategy game and just one of many strat's you can have
Hi, almost everyone engineers. Engineering is upgrading your base, structuring your clan, setting clan policies with the matchmaker in mind, as well as selecting and rejecting bases that are iether good or bad in war.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
When you tell people not to drop infeno or eagle unless they have progressed their bases a little after newly upgrading townhall, when you tell people with heroes down not to war, when you reject from your clan a base with good war stars, but week troops and strong defences (typical organic farming base), or if you keep you offence stronger than your defence, or if you upgrading archer towers to Max but uppgrade mortars last, or you full your rostar with th3 at the bottom, or run your rostar with a high amount of weight in the top 35% of bases, or you run defenceless or .5 accounts - its all engineering. If you gemmed or put priority on maxing heroes in the early days, thats engineering.
Maxing was really the first type of engineering when we knew no better, maxed bases normally had the advantage most wars, as they would often face a base with lower hero levels and lower wall levels. Early wars were all about heroes, wall and troops.
Engineering has become a problem for 2 reasons,
1 people trend to decide on their own aubtrary rules of what matchmaker cognizant actions are ok and are not. Some people say .5 bases are totaly cool, others think its the devil. I saw a funny thread the other day where someone was highly critical of having 4 x .5 in your clan, but 3 was ok. People with .5 often think super .5 is engineering and they are smart upgrading, and everyone thinks defenceless is engineering. The pattern is in line with the ancient philospher ONYX's maxim...
"We uppgrade smartly, they engineer." onyx 1000 AD
People usually draw the line where engineering begins just in front of there toes (not all).
The biggest problem, problem 2, is that engineering currently creates way to much advantage way to easily, i accept that their should be some small advantage to heroes an wall to keep players farming and active but ro give huge advantage that wars no longer are competive are no fun and will ruin the game.
The problem comes in that you cannot critisise players, for doing the same thing everyone else does, just to a higher degree. In a sense you are demanding that they build weaker bases on purpose. Silly really. So you have to focus on the matchamker, who should ir reward, and by how much.
I think supercell should make all wars even enough so that if you controll for skill and just look at the matchup, no side, assuming equal skill and effort on both sides, have a more than 57% chance to win because of the matchup. The average advantage should 52 to 53 %. And the advantage should be on the items that are hard to grind out (heroes and wall) and should also favor progression. It should never be a th9 wars to stay maxed forever because he is afraid if he upgrades he will hurt his clan in wars.
Its about rewarding the right things, in the right amount. To give advantage for rushing to th9, only upgrading drags, and upgrading a few defences (to th6 level) should not be a better base to bring into a war clan than a maxed th10, or a balaced th8. Its easier to create so why should it get a matchmaker advantage? We also cant reward things that are beyond what casuals can create, an defenceless th11 with Max offence takes huge effort or gems to built, but to reward it means casuals can never built similar bases, and will quit.
Some people favor a perfect parity matchmaker, i think that will mean no one will farm very much, leading to dead clanchats, an you will not feel reward as your heroes level up.
so to answer your question, unless you upgrading in a war noob organic farming style (defence rushed), and you have never rejected a base because it clearly was bad for war (rushed, defence rushed, weak war troops) despite it having decent war stars, unless that is true, then an engineer thinks the same way as you. They are trying to win. To them you are asking them to build bases that are weaker than they could, to an aubtrary level that YOU choose. Isnt that kinda funny?
The correct unit of analysis for me clearly is not the engineer, but the matchmaker, and the correct quesrions are how does it currently work, why does supercell do this, how should it work, and why should it work that way, and then finaly how can that be achieved.
Thank you for your thought provoking question, I can tell you dislike engineers, yet were polite anyway. Hats off.
totally agree, well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiler
Edit: I has not read any of your posts before the forum rep system game into being, I think that mushroom put me off, but after seeing your rep I started playing attention, you are a great poster. Your like a non abrasive Aspex. Aspex is so abrasive, he caught on fire while bundgy jumping, like a meteor buring up in the atmosphere. You have most of aspex's quality, with the friendlyness of johnnyfsullivans or hatchelhoff.
should we fall you johnnypex or Asphoff? Maybe tiler will do.
It's 100% FP. It can be annoying to get a terrible matchup, but that doesn't mean it's cheating. Those engineers worked twice as hard to get to where they are. Imagine getting 100%d by th7s and above every time you log off. Engineering is not an easy development path.
unless your a th8 your not generally seeing th7's in multi.Quote:
Originally Posted by 842
I can tell you the last time as a th10 I saw a th8.
OP, when you insinuate engineering is not fair play, it usually leads to a toxic discussion.
There are many threads on this issue. Typically, focusing on the matchmaking algorithm helps for a better exchange rather than determining if it's fair or not. The Clan Wars sub-forum is where these threads get grouped together, FYI.
I've kept a bunch of threads bookmarked for reference. If you have the time or desire, these touch on the issue.
Engineering
Nerf’s suggestions for engineered bases / clans
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...17#post7861017
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...01#post7979801
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...82#post8067582
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...58#post8371458
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...24#post8371624
Billius discussion on the impact of Engineered clans and bases to the game
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...-and-Farm-Wars
Onyx view on Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...84#post9272584
Seachicken view on Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...53#post9304253
Sumosloth on Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...ut-Engineering
Noctaire's blog on Engineering
http://nocsclashjournal.blogspot.com...-how-best.html
How to avoid Engineering
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...mpetitive-wars
Nerf's response to how to avoid engineering thread
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...33#post9910533
Stop talking about stuff you clearly have no idea about for God's sake :facepalm:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadPoool
Did he ever in his post mention engineering to be cheating or not in the ToS? No he didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiler
Yes, unlike modding, engineering is well within the ToS, but it is just as unfair in that it ruins the experience for others by providing an automatic win for the engineprobleOh,there is nothing RESPECTABLE about engineering, from wherever you got that.
Here, the problem isn't a new th9/10/11 not building the new defences immediately to get his offence up,or heck ,even the .5s are kinda acceptable in the sense that they are beateble if one is skillful enough. But a th11 getting matched against a th9 and easily rolling it with dragons and/or the warden IS a problem, guaranteeing an automatic win/draw(depending on the th levels) to the opponent clan unless they are stupid or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
I have both type of account a mid th10 with 33/40 heros and en engineered one which just started upgrading loons to 7. I started engineering just because my mid th10 which is #1 in our clan always matched with max defence th10 with low heros(20/20). So I need to balance this mismatch. Give me fair matchup for my main i will stop engineering
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
Engineering has gone really bad for those that create a roster of engineered bases in their clan. Building you base the smart way for war has been there for a long time. The rule of thumb is that if you can't 3 star your mirror base with the current troops you have, your defence is probably stronger than your offence. So most people realized that placing an xbow, upgrading, mortors, upgrading wiz towers made their war mirror more difficult especially if their offence was weak.
So rule of thumb for war is offence before defence until you can 3 star your mirror base. Its the smart way to upgrade your bases. For example you just upgraded to th9 and place 2 xbows on your base. Well with the current troops you have that is a disadvantage, as you will most likely not be able to 3 star your mirror because you have th8 offence facing xbows.
Now some people took advantage of this war weight and created clans with lopsided offence vs defence. Thus creating mismatches. SC has worked it a bit so that if your clan is heavily engineered your probably going to face another engineered clan. Engineered clans used to thrive with the old system where everyone had defenceless th10 and get matched with a lvl 2 clan with weak offence. No that rarely occurs as SC tries to make sure those clans face other engineered clans.
But my suggestion is to upgrade smartly or you are just going to make it harder on yourself and your clan mates in war.
The link below has helped me upgrade what needs to be upgraded for war
https://www.allclash.com/upgrade-pri...for-clan-wars/
I know how frustrating it must be to have a non rushed clan and go against an engineered clan. I have a th11 that gets paired against th8s and has max th11 troops. I feel like it's just the difference of what you want your village to look like. If you think you should max your infernos before you max your bowlers, you are going to loose wars. Offensive should always take precedence over defensive. It's just smart playing. I started upgrading troops and hero's over defenses a year before I heard the term engineered. I now have going on 1500 war stars and can attack any number in war. I enjoy it.
Yes, it is technically fair play but....It's main purpose and reason for being, is to get an unfair advantage in war. Ideally what happens is that a TH9+ with super low defensive war weight, will equal a much lower base for the enemy. So you give up one easy base, to have the ability to 3 star two of their tougher bases.
The whole point of war weight, is to get even matches. It's supposed to be like boxing, where people who are the same weight, should have a fair match. Engineering is kinda like saying the fat 6yr old kid and the skinny 12yr old both weigh the same, so they should be an even fight, when obviously the 12yr old has a massive advantage in other areas and should easily win. Yes, they consider offensive weight more now, but it still easily manipulated and needs to change even more.
Defenseless bases also offer no challenge or fun(or clan points) to the people who have to attack them. Kinda sucks when your war attacks are against a level 1 cannon base. It's a waste of time.
That's certainly how I got started.....engineering to combat mismatches up top.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeBirds
Because people like to win, and they know engineering gives them an inherent advantage over normal players.
I rushed to th8 because my king was lvl5 and my de storage full.
I rushed to th9 because my king was lvl10, my de storage was full and I wanted to start upgrading my queen.
I rushed to th10 because of bowlers and the de drill. :)
In a few weeks when my heroes are 30/30, I will rush to th11 to start upgrading the gw because i want to finish the hero upgrades at the same time.
I don't upgrade my th to get an advantage in war. My builders are always busy ... I don't even have an idle builder for walls because I want to finish my defenses as quickly as possible.
To stop engineering war weight depends on heros level and offensive strength equally defensive strength. Also reduce xbow and inferno weight.
the norm which is a maxed 10, 9, 8 etc, has now been considered cute. it's like those goblin only bases, or no walls. It is now a for fun base. the bases in between engineers and maxed bases are the norm now.
WHY-This is as good an explanation as any.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat5592
I got an engineered account in the Forum goat herd
Another way to ask your question is: Why do people upgrade their accounts in a way that is advantageous for war? Then the question sort of answers itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
There was also a time, when SC would look the other way at all the modding clans that were running roughshod over clans- that engineered accounts were the only way to take them down in a war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobiah
Those mod clans hated pairing up against engineers. Was about the only thing at the time that struck fear in them.
I agree, it's not cheating but I don't see the appeal of it. Is it really a ton of fun to hit a th9 with max th11 war troops? Over and over and over again? It might be fun to totally smash a weak base with no effort a couple of times, but I just don't see the fun of it for every war. You might as well go the war farmer route and just get the loot with a lot less effort than building an engineered clan.
I'm in an all 11 clan, so we don't face engineered clans and while this has its own problems with the current meta, at least it's actually a match of skills.
I haven't seen a successful clan where th11 engineers attack th9s yet.... maybe it's because we have some th11 and not only th9 bases at the top. Our .5 and minis always attack much stronger bases than their mirrors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuma022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin94
I would agree most of the time they are matched with TH7
I am Rusher and I want to see that everyone rush there bases and engineering just helping me.and pls stop bullying rushers.and if you can't stop then be ready to crushed by engineered clans.beacause we gonna revange those bullying staff by engineering
No. They're really not, unless they're a white TH with TH7 levels of offence and defence (which are out there).Quote:
Originally Posted by Endofdays
With out engineers you would have no bridges, roads nor any cars to drive on. If you want to go to a time and place where ignorance reigned, then have an engineer design and build you a time machine and go back in time about 1400 years. That was a great time we had the plague, no running water, and one out of four lived to the ripe old age of 30. Stop this unfounded and despicable attack on engineers. We will no longer be the butt of your ridicule. I am personally disgusted at these threads. I am literally angry with rage!!!
Thats why!
It's either because max th10 and 11 defense is stupidly OP or they're just tryna pick easy targets for easy clan XP
Your attempt at humor failed....I started this thread to try and gather information about why people engineer? Why they think it is fun to do this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells549
I agree that offense comes before defense, but I am speaking of the clans that have defenseless th10s and 11s...Everyone is entitled to build the base that they want to build, it just sucks the fun out of the game a little at a time when we match with these engineered clans. Most of the time we win against these clans, but its still not as fun as matching with a fair matchup where the clan with the best skilled attackers or the best designed bases are the victors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitejake
Very interesting thought...had not considered it before and that makes sense as to why it was allowed to go on for so long.Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
not quite sure what you mean by this. We require our members to have certain hero levels per TH level to join and compete in wars. And their defenses need to be able to defend as well. As members of League play, We are the best base builders and attackers that we can be, and we strive for that. Fair matchups are much more fun for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
unfortunately for the clans that enjoy fair matchups, SC hasn't done enough to discourage this.....Seems to me the best way to combat this is to make offensive weights heavier in the match making algorithm.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnarFurias
Part of being the strongest at that game as possible is building an unbeatable base is it not?Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
I know this feeling....I currently have a th10 that my son, who was 5 at the time, bought a ♥♥♥♥ load of gems unbeknownst to me, and just upgraded his TH...im trying to build it up to a competitive th10 to go alond with my max 9 and near maxed 8, but with th6 lvl troops hitting th10s and 11s is rough.Quote:
Originally Posted by 842
its all fair until you are on the receiving end
-RAiN
Plenty will argue that being strongest at war in this game is to have enough offense to beat an "unbeatable" base. This game has two components...multiplayer farming and war and those two modes are not compatible with each other. In multiplayer an "unbeatable" base will not necessarily attract stronger attackers. In wars, making a stronger base simply draws in stronger opponents. How do you overcome stronger opponents? One way is to create an engineered base that does just enough defending but can punch above its weight (old school 0.5s and modern 0.25s). Another way is to make a lopsided base (weak defensive, super strong offensive) to give you extra attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
Maybe i am just too War minded, that I want my attacks to 3star my opponents while at the same time have my war base defend a few times...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
I understand not liking engineering but I honestly did not understand this statement. Can you please elaborate? It's hard for me to tell you what I think because I honestly don't understand what you are saying. What is "true" about a war clan? What makes a war clan "true"? What separates true war clans from war clans? Are there "false" war clans? Is there some set of published or understood criteria for what makes a war clan "true"?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
and that different game play was to bully lower level bases due to that they cant compete on fair playQuote:
Originally Posted by Tobiah
Eh? Thanks for completely validating everything I posted, despite your seemingly sour way of responding.Quote:
Originally Posted by AjAyPeRi
I did not say that he was asking about the ToS. Nowhere did I even imply that I thought that. He asked about fair play, and I gave him a response from two separate stances. If you look at how the ToS defines fair play, then engineering qualifies as fair play. I also mentioned that "fair" can be a subjective term. To further expand on that, just because the rules call it fair, does not mean the community agrees. And different groups within the community have different opinions. Clearly.
And I also said that stances on engineering are based in opinion. You clearly don't agree with engineering. But others do. You think that people all over will unanimously agree that engineering is despicable and disrespectful? Because I very seriously doubt it. Your opinion is not the only one. You're more than welcome to defend your position, but being aggressive towards people who disagree with you makes you and your stance look bad, regardless of who agrees with you.
In other words...chill out
Clan engineering does rely on having bases with good defense at the top of the war map, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
Are you talking about clan engineering or individual base engineering? Some of the pros and cons of each overlap, but not all of them.
IMO engineered base defense is a fascinating, seldom-explored aspect of the game. Building a base that mirrors a TH7 but can defeat TH8 gowipe is legitimately hard.
The Romans were world famous for their engineering, which included roads, bridges, and running water in many cities. But yes, they did have the plague. Be nice to the Romans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells549
Thank you.
What I meant by my comment is that you select bases that you think are advantageous in war. And don't allow people to join whose upgrades would be a disadvantage. Which is what engineers do, just to a much greater extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
Engineering is not a yes/no thing. You will face clans in random wars who are less selective than you, and (potentially) you've built in an advantage by your choices over your clan roster. It's all a question of how far you go
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. The engineered clans I'm familiar with do it because they have fun, and considering the restrictions they impose on themselves, well, you might be mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fdl
a big fat NO. We dont choose certain bases requirements to gain advantages. We require them because we dont want liabilities. A big difference on not wanting to be at a disadvantage versus seeking a blatant advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
this basically what happened to our clan long time ago. we were maxer and were matched against engineered clan. so we moved on. we love coc and nothing can stop us or frustrate us. so as quote says if you can't beat them join them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobiah
now we are not worried anymore about engineered clan. we enjoy warring now. so if i were you OP get yourself engineered account/s or .5 at least. if you have th7 or 8 in your clan then ask them to stop upgrading their defenses and after maxing their troops move to next th.
just my 2 cents:)
My "engineered" base started as a way to donate to myself since I lack the patience to wait 10 min for a clan member to donate to me. I did not want lower level troops, so I focused on upgrading troops and pumps/mines/storages but not doing a lot with the defences. After putting it in a war to help with war castle troops, I found it could be an asset there too. It is indeed FP and is only a different way of doing the same thing. It gets 3*ed in wars, so kind of a liability there, but the benefit gained by having multiple people donating to war castles ensures, not that the highest level troops are put in since we already have max troops, the burden of war castle donations is spread across more people. These attacks on people who have chosen to engineer their base a certain way (maxing is a different form of engineering) is the thing that is truly not fair play. This goes for engineers attacking maxers and vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
I have little clan war experience but have been studying the engineering issue a bit and reading a lot of posts about it.
Sometimes I wonder if it would be better to simply go to a trophy system for clans too. Just like "ladder". You win clan wars, you gain trophies, you lose clan wars, you lose clan trophies. In theory this would solve the matchmaking issue as you would always be far more evenly matched.
Although you would need to make the incentives to stay high trophies great enough so people do not "drop". Also including lower th level players might need some addressing such as maybe adding increased bonuses for being the "underdog", etc.
Another option might be simple random matchmaking. It sounds crazy but might be more fun than constantly fighting engineered clans. Sometimes you will be the underdog, other times not.
Was referring to the bubonic plague of the dark ages. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire engineering was mostly nil, these threads are always started by someone who is way to uptight and they get rather boring. These "engineering" threads have been going on for a long time now and are really pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilomilo
And yes the Roman Republic and later the Roman Emperic periods are well known for their engineering prowess.
Thank you.
I got a chuckle out of my post, so humor didn't fail. I don't really care if you find it humorous or not. You posted this to get the engineering fight started again. These posts are just boring anymore. And they serve no point other than to start a toxic war of words.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
If you want to know anything about engineering, check the first 10-20 pages of "General" or "Clan Wars." You will find more than you ever wanted to know, and then more and more and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
This topic has been beaten like a dead horse, buried, dug up, and beaten some more. (And then buried again, dug up, and beaten even more.) Why not try a little humor?
My uncle was an Engineer with Norfolk Southern Railway-drove a really big diesel locomotive. A really nice guy, and nobody accused him of cheating.
Anybody else have an engineer in their family?
I work with engineers that are smart and funny. I wouldnt consider them cheaters although one time one of them remoted into my coworkers laptop and changed the desktop to a pic of a crying baby XDQuote:
Originally Posted by milomilomilo
Engineering is fair play. There are no rules that say anything is wrong with it. As a leader or co-leader of a war clan it is our responsibility to put our team in the best possible position to win wars. The question isn't why we engineer. The question is why you don't?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
Your original post only talks about opinions being belly buttons and that engineering is well within the ToS. OP never mentioned that it was cheating, he is just stating (and rightly so) that engineering provides an unfair advantage to the engineer without any skill , and wants SC to change it so that wars are won on skill in attack and base building and not by manipulating the matchmaking(talk about our clan ,consisting of th9s and a couple of th8s has drawn 5 Th10s and a Th11, which atmost can be drawn unless the opponent clan isn't technically sound).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiler
I also never said engineering was or wasn't cheating. It's definitely not cheating. Unfair is not the same as cheating. That's why it isn't against the ToS. Cheating is black and white, while fairness is a more of a gray area. And where you sit in that gray area gives OP a different answer to his original question which wasQuote:
Originally Posted by AjAyPeRi
Why do people do it?
Really, it's the same answer, but one group says they do it to gain an advantage in war, while the other group says they do it to gain an unfair advantage in war. Gray area. Different people, different opinions
The OP saying that they "wanted to hear from Engineers that think that engineering is FP" will be why Tiler responded as they did. After all, the OP's implication was that engineering is not FP and that needed to be answered head on.Quote:
Originally Posted by AjAyPeRi
OP - how about why not? Strategies to improve your win rate include cultivating a skilled clan, upgrading solid war troops, learning strats, kicking people that don't attack, agonizing over good layouts, benching poorly engineered accounts (preemies), including well engineered accounts. Is there a non-arbitrary reason to rule out one of these options?
Joe, first of all, you represent a war clan from a certain respected clan alliance. I'm therefore surprised that you would suggest that engineering is not fair play, as this is just naive.
While I personally believe that engineering as a whole is having, and will continue to have, a detrimental long term effect on the game, it is not against the rules, and is not cheating.
So many great responses to the OP but I will highlight this one because of the clan / alliance insights and it just struck me as him being obtuse...Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrags
I'll just give you a quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
"As you opened the game, you already lost. Why? Because you dont play to win." -- Most Real War Clan
Did this post help you understand more about why engineering occurs OP, I am still waiting to here your thoughts on my thoughts, as it were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
So you are OK with engineering for the purpose of avoiding disadvantage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Redviper42
An engineered base is designed with the specific intention of gaining an advantage by manipulating the war match maker. Doing whatever to avoid being at a disadvantage is not engineering; blurring the lines is just disingenuous "everybody is engineering" when this is not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
It is the same thing. No one is manipulating the match maker. The match maker is the same for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouges
What everyone is doing (engineer, non engineer) is building their base, offense and defense in a way to have the greatest chance for winning a war.
The current match making favors offense over defense. Dless, or not building specific defenses, or x.5 are just different points on the same curve. I think most people would say it over favors offense.
Well if you want to win then I guess you are going to have to "fight fire with fire". We all have been there when we get matched up ridiculously with an engineered clan.
Not correct. Some engineered bases engineer in order to avoid a disadvantage while en route to some later goal. For example, on my account that rushed to TH11, I'm not building the heavy defenses until I have the troops and heroes to beat bases that have them. If I dropped the heavy defenses I'd be putting my clan at a disadvantage because I'd be pulling in bases I couldn't beat. Once my heroes are big enough to take on infernos, I'll drop infernos; once they're big enough to take on an eagle I'll drop that too. In the meantime I'm a TH11 that weighs like a TH9 because my heroes and troops are, to put it politely, not quite up to TH10 standards yet. Builders are always busy; currently working on cannons and archer towers.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouges
Extreme farmers do something similar. When they max their TH9 walls at 10/10 heroes and go to TH10 in order to have something to dump gold and elixir into, if they war they are not going to to add infernos. They are engineered in order to avoid hurting their clan.
People whose little sibling or jerk of a friend grabbed their device and upgraded their TH against their wishes sometimes do the same. If they have TH9 defenses, troops and heroes, it is wise for them to not add infernos. They're obviously going to add the TH10 camps, spells etc. because they need to farm at the TH10 level now.
There are probably other examples that fit this category as well.
This is a side issue, but these weights need to be taken with a grain of salt. Or a boulder. Tower weights and the matchmaking algorithm are demonstrably nonlinear, and applying linear solutions is a good first approximation but is not going to yield an optimal build order. One clear example is high-level mortars vs. xbows. The latter weigh more and send you much higher on your clan's defensive ladder, and don't let any spreadsheet tell you otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by prosper12
For my modestly engineered clan we just stick with what's been working for a while: heroes, walls, air defenses, traps, point d before any splash towers. Xbows and infernoes dead last.
So its fine to avoid disadvantage, not kosher to gain advantage. That's less than illuminating, where do we draw the line? Right in front of your toes perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by bouges
It one thing to want changes to the matchmaker, but anyone that turns upgrade strategy into a morality play has chosen a strange venue in which to signal their virtue.
Because I don't like building bases, I like destroying them.
Yes. You nailed it. I do not give a fig how anyone plays this game, what I hate is that the war match maker can be manipulated so hard that it creates unwinnable wars. Unwinnable, meaning a clan has the advantage of better defense and better offense. Put yourself in the best position to win is great, but when the game allows such huge in game advantages that is the problem. I want to see wars won and lost by attacking ability / base design rather than which clan can game the system best.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
I agree unwinnable wars are detrimental to the long term success of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouges
However, putting aside the anti engineered bias, what is the percent of truly unwinnable wars. Where the engineered clan has more anchor bases and more offense. 1 in 50, 1 in a 100?
We run a few th11's, no ea, no inferno, th9 splash, upgraded point defense. These bases should be 3 starred by decent th10's, and by any th11. However, rarely, rarely does this happen. Then you add the general lack of organized attacking, and you have a perfect recipe for someone to complain about engineers (valid) but never account for their performance.
We almost never see an unwinnable war. I can't remember the last time actually. However, what is common, is one side having a huge advantage where they can be much less skilled in attacking and base designing but still win. I think the unwinnable wars are seen by the clans that don't have a th11 or maybe even th10 at the top. They are the ones that get perfected in 30 minutes and have no chance at 3 stars on enemy number one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
This same argument was made about modding.... it was never a problem until it did become a problem. As more and more clans engineer (and who can argue that engineering is not increasing?) the low amount of these unwinnable wars will continue to rise. Instead of allowing that to happen as it did in modding and even as it did with TH sniping, it should be fixed sooner rather than later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
I say let them engineer and see. What will happen if everyone engineers is not a downfall of the game but everyone getting draws till some figure out it's more about being balanced, teamwork, and planning.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouges
My current theory is maxers<premie(rushed wo plan)<engineer(defenseless)<balanced(strategic rushed). Imagine a clan that is war specific where like football everyone has a specialized position to excel at and there are few utility players. Where you have anchor specialists that have high defenses and no real offense, ground offense specialists and air specialists. Much like a football team has lineman, running backs, and receivers. or how we have gowiva and lavaloonion. Is that what many are suggesting? Nope they want clans to be jack of all trades master of none and see who is the best. The best are those that specialize, master once craft and work with a solid team to make up for their weaknesses vs those that are just good at everything. As author Jim Collins says, "Good is the enemy of Great."
It wont take that long at the snails pace of "tweaking" that's going on. Wars will end up being polarized as described by billius not long ago. Engineers and farm wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
That is a good logical thought however just because people know what to do doesn't mean they will actually do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbugs
Take body weight in the US for example. More and more people know they need to eat healthier and exercise more. They might even have to knowledge on how to do it however 2/3 of the US population is over weight.
Take money as another example. People know they need to spend less, budget, and stick to a plan however debt levels continue to rise. Those that have discipline, a plan, and accountability succeed, those that don't might know they need to but won't. And they often blame that the system is stacked against them and that it is unfair.
This game is no different. Those that have experience and know what to do are excelling while there are those that are not. Those that are not often blame the system(MM) is against them and that it is unfair.
This is a strategy game and may the best strategy win. Those without a strategy or a bad strategy are saying it's unfair. They want a way to win a strategy game without a strategy? or a bad one? To me that makes no sense.
I admire ur experience, ive been playing about as long as u have(but with some breaks), but these engineered bases dont bother me... Ive nvr made an engineered account myself, but my best friend has 3 engineered accounts, and i might make one, and i dont see whats wrong with them, they r just an ez 3 star, ik they attack well, but thats ur problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHammy
Engineered accounts r just another war strat, besides, im only talking about clans with a few engineered bases, as mini's, and not clans made of engineered bases, those r a bit annoying.
I h8 rushers, but i dont mind engineered bases, they usually have a decent player behind them, besides, its just another war strat, just go with it...
I hated TH11 then it came out, and quit for 7 months in protest, i refused to come back, until some guy made me come back, ive had to deal with TH11, and that GRAND WARDEN, WHICH IS MY LEAST FAVORITE TROOP EVER IN THE GAME, especially then ur a TH9 pusher(it also disrupted the TH10s as well). If i can deal with that ever since the update, u can deal with a couple of engineered bases, that simple........
Ur clearly a bit bad, and by the looks of it, a bit confused, theres NO SUCH THING AS AN UNWINNABLE WAR< AS LONG AS U HAVE GOOD CLANMATES! ENGINEERED BASES DO NOT MAKE UNWINNABLE WARS! GET SOME SENSE PLZ! Just saying, ive seen an engineered #16 destroy a #2, through attacking skill, not through a massive townhall advantage, it doesnt change attacking skill, just spices things up more. Defence is overrated, theres basically always a way to get 3 starred in war, unless you r either a base design GENIUS, or just get lucky. Btw, ik ppl look stuff up off youtube, but if its on youtube, some1s already figured out how to beat it!Quote:
Originally Posted by bouges
Most of this is irrelevant, and r u calling me a bad war player, ive been max TH9 for a long time, and yes, then u upgrade u weaken the clan, therefore, dont upgrade, its that simple, or leave the clan. I find every single thing uve just said pointless...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
Ur just confusing every1 who doesnt want to listen to ur rant, or isnt smart enough to understand it(i bet im probs one of the only ppl who actually understands what ur saying here....
I see ur point about why we should analyse the root/source of the apparent 'problem', that logical, but as there is no problem, ur just wasting ur time.
True, engineering is totally legitimate, viable and respectable, just some ppl r just annoyed, that brute strength isnt enough to win wars anymore, some ppl cant understand that intelligence is coming into the game, in somewhere other than planning ur base and attack layouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiler
Your response to my post is pretty bizare , in fairness not the most bizare I have received, but still bizarre from so many angles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syxic
First, what rant? It was a calm and ordered response to the exact question the OP asks, why do people engineer. i answered that and explained that the fact that the subjective definition of engineering, means that many people dont believe they are engineering, and this being one of the other reasons people engineer (that they dont think they are doing anything other than playing the game) it directly respons to the OPs request.
So I pointed out engineers engineer because they want more favorable matches, because they want to win more, I also pointed out they would find it odd to deliveratly build base weaker to lose more, and I pointed out that for some people they dont even know they are doing it, so there is no reason for them not to do it. All these are direct answers with respect to the OP.
i then expanded to explain the trickyness of discussing a concept that we all do (if we take it seminserious), and with the subjective definition that various so much from person to person. This is a fundamental understanding if you want to talk about this subject in a rarional and coherenr way. A .5 er may come to the forums to rant at defencless bases and use the word engineers, and a more balaced maxer may come to rage at engineers, but mening .5s. Others will moan about permabaseing, those defencesilllvely rushed (the true organic way to play the game) could certainly moan about maxers manipulating the MMA, if they knew how it worked. I also pointed out that often what makes people angry with engineers, is the extent of the advantage, and not the engineering itself, which is controlled by the matchmaker, and asked the OP to if that want the correct unit of analysis.
I find your response to my post incredibly offensive, I put a lot of effort to provide detailed, logical, meaningfull responses to the interesting question posed by the OP, it was all relevant, on topic and honest. To call it an irrelevant rant, is a very toxic way to express yourself. If you think what I say is wrong, take my arguments specifically and lets discuss them. Maybe they are wrong, if so great, I get to learn something. If you think they are not relevant, explain why, then we can discuss that.
Then your comment about me saying your a bad war player??? i assume you dont mean you specifically, bit even as a generalisarion I dont see how you could draw that conclusion. Please explain.
The OP asked for our thoughts, I took the time to post a very honest, structured thoughful answer, since its a public diskussion forum, I assume he is going to response and give his take which I eagerly await.
as I eagerly await feedback from you. If not I hope you have a great day, and good luck geting fair and competitive wars.
edit: if its the length that grinds your gears just read the bold.
A lot of people understand how to engineer, but choose not to do it, they (i guess at this stage 30% of people against it) are against it due to the destructive impact that the current level of advantage offered, and the difficulty for casuals to keep up, and maxers to slim down, means, irrespective of how smart or right engineering may or may not be, that it could threaten the future existense of clash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syxic
there is definitily something to this viewpoint.
That's a bridge too far for me. A max TH11 vs max TH9 matchup at #1 is pretty unwinnable. I enjoy engineering, but allowing 11 vs 9 matchups is a big flaw in the matchmaker and needs to be prevented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syxic
Defenseless TH11 are also a little too powerful for my tastes. I'd be more OK with them if the matchmaker made sure that any clan with a defenseless TH11 matched up against a clan whose defense matched their offense.
I've read several of your posts. Recommend you refrain from calling groups of people unintelligent, since it could lead to a toxic exchange and a misunderstanding of your intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syxic
It appears your experience is different from mine, when it comes to lopsided bases and war. I disagree with almost all of the points you've made.
All of these answers kind of crack me up. Let's call a spade a spade... In most cases an engineered clan has a huge advantage in most Wars. They have maxed or almost maxed troops/Hero's against their opponent; who does not have that advantage. Yet their bases are matched up. So level playing field for bases (or mostly) but huge troop/ Hero advantage. So it's not a mystery why they like the idea or why they are creatively trying to justify it. All those wins and they don't have to worry about upgrading defenses... sweet!
Here's my rub... While I'm sure it's a blast for the engineered base players. It's simply not fair to those of us not engineered. Don't get me wrong, super clever! Hats off... but let's be honest, not even match ups (even above the normal bout of uneven match ups we all deal with. LOL).
Supercell should simply make troop, Hero's etc weigh as much as defenses in match ups. Problem solved, even playing field...let the best clan win!
Just my humble opinion. :)
There is a problem with this simple solution. A th10 upgrades all troops and spells. An engineered th10 only upgrades the 1-2 troops and spells used in war so all the other troops can still be th7 or lower. So offensive weight is not even close to being equal between the 2 th10s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarahbelle
Your sentiment is also true for people who max heroes, but it is lots easier to turn a maxing base into an engineered base than it is to turn an account with low heroes into an account with high heroes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarahbelle
What makes both situations fair is that it only takes a little bit of effort for you, too, to engineer (or a lot more effort for you to have max heroes).
With this solution, there is no doubt that Engineered bases would have some catching up to do... To say that's not a good solution because engineered bases only chose to upgrade "some troops" doesn't seem logical to me.
When people upgrade "some defenses" they get weighted based on those defenses.
In this case people would be weighted on the troops they upgraded... totally fair and even.
Those of us who have been playing for years can't "un-upgrade" defenses. But engineered bases can "upgrade" theirs. It's the only fair solution.
Engineered bases was a very clever idea... won people lots of Wars they probably didn't deserve to win. So take the wins and now it's time to level the playing field. (this was in reply to Tollbooth's last statement.. sorry forgot to attach quote)
Not sure I totally understand what you're trying to say here?Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor