Onyx single list MMA versus Dorsans double list vs nerfs weight tax.

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Originally Posted by dorsan

Wait what? I think I just undrestood what you are talking about here now. If I got this correctly, then this is what we are talking about:
roster type 432:
4 th10
6 th9

roster type 433:
2 th11
4 th10
4 th9

and so on...

If this is correct, then no, I will never be for something like this. This sounds like "maxers paradise". Imagine a clan of 4 fully maxed th10s and 6 fully maxed th9s. They will completely dominate the "roster type 432" leagues. This won't lead to fair and challenging wars, this will lead to maxing and perma locking at certain th levels, nothing more.

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Sure it will, those clans will eventually be pushed into a higher league (if they don't start there) and face an equal clan of maxed villages. Just because you have a maxed village doesn't mean you automatically win. You have to be able to attack with competence to complete the domination equation.

the lower leagues would be full of non maxed villages in each slot. That's the advantage of the leagues.

That's what we are shooting for right? Wars coming down to best attackers and defenders?

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

Sure it will, those clans will eventually be pushed into a higher league (if they don't start there) and face an equal clan of maxed villages. Just because you have a maxed village doesn't mean you automatically win. You have to be able to attack with competence to complete the domination equation.

the lower leagues would be full of non maxed villages in each slot. That's the advantage of the leagues.

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So where is the fairness here?

All I see is you now have to build this way and this way only, and we are not only going to match you with people who have the advantage over you if you don't upgrade your base in this one exact way we are not only going to put you at a disadvantage, but we will also make a public list where we display all the clans that did the only real upgrade path that we want people to take.

This sounds worse than what we have right now in all aspects.

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Originally Posted by dorsan

I fail to see what is the advantage of running the single list at all. A double list with 4% threshold will still give you better match than a single list with 0% threshold. You simply can't accurately represent a village with 1 value.

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not for a 10 man clan with 4 defencless th11 with maxed offence, and 5 Max th10 and 1 Max th9. Unless you have a similar clan searching which is miniscle in terms of probability, a double even with a 20 % threshold will not find a match. If you weigh in single list those bases as a 10.4, they will have a disadvantage of around 15% vs the 10.4. Around 10 percent of the combinarions would give the defencless clan the advantage, but it would be very small, weigh it like a 10.6, and it will never have an advantage. Isnt it better to have a war with 4 10.4 , 5 Max 10 and 1 Max 9 facing a clan with 4 x Max 11 defencless, 5 Max 10, and 1 Max 9, than no match at all? Especially if the clans prefer shorter weight times?

edited 5 Max 10 from 1. I dont think its material.

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

not for a 10 man clan with 4 defencless th11 with maxed offence, and 5 Max th10 and 1 Max th9. Unless you have a similar clan searching which is miniscle in terms of probability, a double even with a 20 % threshold will not find a match. If you weigh in single list those bases as a 10.4, they will have a disadvantage of around 15% vs the 10.4. Around 10 percent of the combinarions would give the defencless clan the advantage, but it would be very small, weigh it like a 10.6, and it will never have an advantage. Isnt it better to have a war with 4 10.4 , 1 Max 10 and 5 Max 9 facing a clan with 4 x Max 11 defencless, 5 Max 10, and 1 Max 9, than no match at all? Especially if the clans prefer shorter weight times?

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Nah, there are many compositions that clans would match. One of the examples: 4 th10.5s, 1 maxed th10, 1 th9.5, 3 defenseless th10s and 1 defenseless th9. That clan has 0% error on offense and defense. Put the error at 4% and you'll see many possible matches for them.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

Dang viking, you must need a new keyboard by now......lol

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my spell checker checks me in text, and when i click post it seams to make changes again, drives me nuts, glad i'm not in throwing distance of you guys. I'm typing in a mini ipad, and I weigh upward or 270 pounds. Sausage fingers.

edit: its not an english spell checker

edit 2: oh i see what you mean, i thought you meant my mistakes, you meant volume, iether way i need a break. Procrastinating on the forums because I have something much less fun to write in much higher volume in real life.

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Originally Posted by dorsan

So where is the fairness here?

All I see is you now have to build this way and this way only, and we are not only going to match you with people who have the advantage over you if you don't upgrade your base in this one exact way we are not only going to put you at a disadvantage, but we will also make a public list where we display all the clans that did the only real upgrade path that we want people to take.

This sounds worse than what we have right now in all aspects.

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What we have now is a complete ♥♥♥♥ shoot. You could technically have the best attackers in the world vs the worst attackers in the world under the current system. 7 th 11's vs 15 th11's (I have seen this recently) and all other kinds of nonsense.

The balance and fairness would come in that each clan will be placed in a league reflecting their villages and attack skills. They would be matched with other clans with similar villages and attack skills. Making for much more balanced and competitive wars on a far greater bases then what they get now. And they won't have to worry about matching a war hardened cwl leagues in the off season or unbalanced rosters.

My opinion is that, with good attack skills, a lower level th10 can perform just a well against a more advanced th10 as the more advanced th10 can perform against a lower level th10.

What would you rather have, a war where you are out matched 4 warden attacks to 12 or a war where 1 or 2 of your not maxed th10's are matched against maxed th10's?

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Originally Posted by dorsan

Nah, there are many compositions that clans would match. One of the examples: 4 th10.5s, 1 maxed th10, 1 th9.5, 3 defenseless th10s and 1 defenseless th9. That clan has 0% error on offense and defense. Put the error at 4% and you'll see many possible matches for them.

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Fair point, but this is matching defencless to defencless, this cant be more than 5% of clans? Shouldnt this cause massive wait times? Isnt this the problem we discuss that sub pools are created? Double list means you need another defencless clan or the maths doesnt add up, you could say it would have 4 th3 but then the offence wont match, and total clanweight wont match. With single list you dont need to find another clan with defencless.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

What would you rather have, a war where you are out matched 4 warden attacks to 12 or a war where 1 or 2 of your not maxed th10's are matched against maxed th10's?

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I would have neither. I want fair wars, I don't want engineers to get an advantage and I don't want maxers to get an advantage either. It takes ages to max your base at higher town hall levels, people who stay perma th9 and perma th10 would have extreme advantage against fresh th9s and th10s. I don't care how skilled that rushed th10 player is with his 11/7 royals and mid th9 troops, he will never ever get a fair match under your system. And you're talking about 4 warden attacks against 12? Well that is a very real scenario under your league system. Since all it takes into account is th levels, 6 completely maxed th11s can easily match against 6 brand new th11s, 2 out of them with wardens and the rest too fresh to have a warden -- so we are right back at where we started.

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Originally Posted by dorsan

I would have neither. I want fair wars, I don't want engineers to get an advantage and I don't want maxers to get an advantage either. It takes ages to max your base at higher town hall levels, people who stay perma th9 and perma th10 would have extreme advantage against fresh th9s and th10s. I don't care how skilled that rushed th10 player is with his 11/7 royals and mid th9 troops, he will never ever get a fair match under your system. And you're talking about 4 warden attacks against 12? Well that is a very real scenario under your league system. Since all it takes into account is th levels, 6 completely maxed th11s can easily match against 6 brand new th11s, 2 out of them with wardens and the rest too fresh to have a warden -- so we are right back at where we started.

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I'm fairly confident that single and double lists will not handle TH11s in MM adequately for the variety of roster compositions that exists in the game. For every example that justifies either algorithm, the clever observer can find more that break it. I agree and disagree with most points made through reading this. :)

A separate parameter that counts key TH11 assets and matches them based on war size alone would handle this much more efficiently and handicap max attack engineering by simultaneously forcing longer searches and providing less advantage to mass offensive TH11 engineering clans.. Say +/- 1 for 10-20v wars, +/- 2 for 25v, +/- 3 at 3v and so on...

Based on experience in wars of this size, I think MM handles all other variables reasonably well and this would go a long way toward fixing matchups that are statistically highly improbably for one clan to win provided each group is of similar skill level and plays fair.

Side note: This change by itself probably gives maxers a slight edge in most wars, but I think we can agree that mixed clans packing max TH11s will always have an advantage and in most cases it has been paid for, it is a smart move for SC to keep this model. All clans should be asking for is consistently winnable matchups as far as TH11s are concerned, which is currently not the case.

Edit: Maxer clans TH9-TH11 may even be handled better by consistently pulling in more TH10s and an additional TH11 or two on the other side with a TH11 asset counting parameter in place. With the added advantage that clans dropping multiple level 1 EA with max offense aren't bringing in 2+ TH11s vs the max accounts in smaller wars. Hopefully this slight contradiction to what I said above makes sense. As always, much to say and trying to avoid TLDR.

The idea of in game clan wars "league play" with a fixed roster breakdown, entry time, and rigid MM requirements is very cool and would make a great addition to the game to support competitive play and would resolve issues with single and double list MM for those that care.

It's like Pot Luck but properly supported by SC with necessary in-game mechanics and rewards.