Wars are no longer about strategy and who has the better strategy, they have become about who has the better engineered bases and spent the most money on said engineered bases. Be nice if we could get back to it being about strategy.
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Wars are no longer about strategy and who has the better strategy, they have become about who has the better engineered bases and spent the most money on said engineered bases. Be nice if we could get back to it being about strategy.
Amen brother
Although I am no fan of engineering it is clearly a strategy. Also, engineered bases are cheaper than maxed bases so I don't think it's a money issue. People will spend money regardless.
I think the argument you're trying to make is wars are less about battle tactics and more about clan level engineering.
Am I the only one that doesn't feel that way about engineered bases? I'm a max th 10 and I get paired with horrible th 11's that are almost always 3 starrable. It's still fair in fact easier for me.
Tactics still always come into play. The changes in match making has made it more difficult to engineer. As far as I can tell...
Totally agree engineering is a strategy & yes you can't stop people spending money on the game I personally don't mind engineered basesQuote:
Originally Posted by fieldofdreams
Never heard this before.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
I guess I'm not saying it isn't a strategy overall, what I'm saying is, actually attack strategy. A th11 mass dragon attacking a th9 is not strategy. I get defensively they are terrible.
To engineer a th11 with max troops and heroes takes a ton of money, no way you can loot that much and keep it. It definitely is about spending money when it comes to engineering bases
"Every battle is won before it's ever fought". Sun Tzu
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Originally Posted by Cargo11900
Agreed 100 %, my level 12 clan loves facing engineers, there not good enough to take out our top 3 with max TH11's and we destroy their top bases with ease
I can understand the frustration if your clan is low and you do not have any max bases, but I love facing them
You don't have to spend money to make an engineered base. If you raid four or 5 times a day and plan your shields well that is more than sufficient to progress even with only one cannon with which to defend yourself.
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Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
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Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
You do realize that if people, whether engineers or not, didn't spend money on the game, it would have died long ago...Quote:
Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
Isnt that hard to keep resourses if u got shield after each defense... even if someone can take 450/450/4k from a th11, just titan bonus covers more than half of this, so if u attack 3/4 times before got attacked again, u will progressQuote:
Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
You just described what strategy is. Coming in with a winning roster is the same as a chess player coming in with the opening prepared, including a game winning novelty. What you really meant is that you don't like engineering because it's destroying your non-war optimized clan, but we get the point.
Problem is defenseless bases don't get Shields that often. A handful of bards and archers, your base is leveled and you get a guard.Quote:
Originally Posted by DOOM2U
Strategy is still important but the engineers have ruined war.
Our clan wins 90% of the time so loosing wars is not what I'm talking about but thanks for stopping by.Quote:
Originally Posted by xQQx
So, if your strategy is working, why the complaint?Quote:
Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
He forgot to say Happy April Fools?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspex
In my eyes, an engineer is a chess player that sacrifices the knights, bishops and rooks for more pawns and queens. Pull 6 pieces for 3 queens and 3 pawns.Quote:
Originally Posted by xQQx
I agree 100%. I have no problem fighting them but the war is boring as all get. Can't even call it a war anymore. More like a skirmish. 1 maybe 2 strong bases and the rest are porta potties, tool sheds at best. I want to war against a country worth of bases and got to settle for The Shire.Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenBeeq
True but most attack with more troops. My defenseless village gets a shield every 16 hrs.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingKoala
This has not been my experience. I have over 40 active bases (65 total) and most are defenseless or have very few defenses; it is rare that they don't get a shield...Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingKoala
falseQuote:
Originally Posted by RagingKoala
http://i.imgur.com/JL8XiCD.png
http://i.imgur.com/BN7cMaU.png
http://i.imgur.com/lqHNuWD.png
http://i.imgur.com/Q8PLair.png
http://i.imgur.com/nRhaOVf.png
http://i.imgur.com/StGffgX.png
http://i.imgur.com/ixNVoV5.png
http://i.imgur.com/bZ2tIvi.png
http://i.imgur.com/EQgIBiY.png
http://i.imgur.com/1WDSiLm.png
Your analogy doesn't work because trading any piece in the beggining for queens inst inside the rules of chess and thus it wouldnt be strategy, but flat out cheating. Strategy is to use the means provided by the game to win and engineers are doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenchafer
The OP also claims to win 90% of his wars, which is a very big number if its true. Maybe he engineers himself or something isnt right on the information provided.
Nice base...
http://i.imgur.com/JL8XiCD.png
It doesn't take a lot of time or any money to create an engineered base, other than perhaps the defenseless with very high heroes. It isn't any harder than a maxer type base. That said, OP, there still is strategy in war. Our clan does small wars and it seems to help us avoid engineered clans unless we put engineered accounts into the war.
DOOM2U, Nice base, looks like you started about early fall last year, I think I would drop the teslas'. That really ticks the attacker when those things pop.
thats not true in my experience, i have 9 bases, the closer to maxed the easier loot accumulation is, especially for high end elixor and dark elixor upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Building your base is as much strategy as attacking or base design, I'd argue that it is even more important. Do you accept rushed bases? If no, why not? That's why you deserve to get pummeled when you face engineers
And you have 90% win rate, what is there to complain about? Non-optimised clans getting 90% win rate then coming to complain about it :facepalm:
Yup. Sad but true. I've been playing for 4 years. Was very happy with the game. Didn't like that they took away farming or TH sniping- .because the game wasn't intended that way. And that's fine. But now the algorythem has been circumvented by engineered bases. My clan has 2 solid TH 11's been made through 4 years of raiding and playing legit. Now we go to war, we are faced with 7 TH 11's 2 legit. The other 5 clearly set up a distinct advantage on the offensive side of the game. Full TH 11 army with powered GW. I can see why people are saying that they are moving away from this game. I wrote supercell and asked how a TH 7 or 8 is suppose to defend against a TH 11 full army. Their answer- please be patient with us. It's like playing monopoly and starting with an extra $1000 in the begining. No balance anymore sadly
STOP RIGHT THERE...BEFORE YOU GO ANY FURTHER ... oh sorry...had the misfortune of hearing that song today...Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncsyanks
So mindlessly sniping was fun? Farming for my mini's since the end of sniping is much easier then it was on my main. So Im always confused by the "farming is dead" comments.
Most of the clans that people call "engineered" are very beatable. What percent of clans are organized enough to really gain much of an advantage from engineering? Most of the time when you lose to an "engineered" clan, that fault is more in your clan then in matchmaking. If you lose wars to an "engineered" clan because your TH7 or 8 couldn't defend against a TH11, the fault is definitely in your clan. TH7's and 8's can't normally defend against TH7's or 8's so what advantage did they gain by using their "engineered" account to attack your TH7 or 8?
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Originally Posted by Denton
Thanks! September 3rd on this acct BR. Its hard for me to judge my impact on our match in 20 and 25 wars with th11's up top so I've tried to be very cautious about what I add. When I was running 10 v 10 in our feeder I was nine or ten on the map and taking out the top 2 enemy bases usualy so I knew I was good there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BabeRuth
Wanting the matchmaker to increase the importance of attacking skill and base design skill and decrease the importance of upgrading path is not a reasonable opinion to have? Those who think that "deserve to get pummeled?" I disagree. I think it is reasonable to enjoy the challenge of engineering or to instead prefer to have attacking skill play a larger role. Personally, I favor the latter. I don't want engineers "punished" but I do want SC to continually work on the matchmaker to try to accurately evaluate the offensive and defensive power of the account and clan. That is the goal of the matchmaker, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by SinOfDusk
The entire purpose of the matchmaker is to try to make a war match that is equally powerful so that attacking skill and base design decide the outcome. If that wasn't the purpose, there would be no matchmaker at all other than to match numbers in the war so you would just randomly match up. It could be th11 vs. th3, it would just be random. Instead, SC decided they want to create an even playing field so that attacking skill is what decides the outcome. Engineers take advantage of the fact that SC has thus far failed to achieve its goal.
We have an account with a war base that looks like your base, but with teslas and traps and CC in the core, and junk buildings around the edges. With no place to spawn troops internally it produces some hilarious defense replays. Smart attackers just mass drag it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DOOM2U
This is a reasonable position but I do appreciate the conflict. The pro engineering side says, this strategy reflects the current matchmaking situation, so if you refuse to account for it you should expect to periodically be beaten by folks who do. I think there is no inherent conflict between believing that, and still wanting supercell to improve the matchmaker to close the biggest holes. I enjoy engineering, but it is clearly a flaw that the matchmaker allows a clan with any TH11 attacks at all to be paired with a clan that doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
The analogy I like for engineering is sprinting, where the rules allow you to cut off your feet and replace them with prosthetics that let you run faster than you could naturally, and the obvious fix is to not let someone who has done that race against 8th graders, but against people who are able to run about as fast as they are. Maybe that second race is other people using prosthetics, and maybe it's against olympic class sprinters who don't need prosthetics.
I am not critical of engineers. They are playing by the rules and taking advantage of faults in the matchmaker. SC created a system with the intent of making the matches even (or as close as they can) in terms of offensive and defensive power, but their system has some major faults that allow people to avoid that even match-up. It is SC's fault, not the fault of the engineers. They are just trying hard to win and I am not critical of them for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
I've never heard sandbagging referred to as a strategy. :-/
That's because this is a text only medium and you don't read posts aloud.Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwyg
If you really want help in figuring out why you're constantly matching engineered clans, then this is a good read:
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...gineered-Clans
I'm confused, what are you getting at? I thought you considered any base not COMPLETELY maxed to be rushed?Quote:
Originally Posted by SinOfDusk
So because I choose not to allow at th11 with level five towers and tier one troops to join I should be punished and pummeled? Are you sure the rusher shouldn't be the one on the receiving end of said pummeling?
Every clan that doesn't accept rushed accounts should be pummeled; striking statement huh?
I would not assume that of all forum goers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspex
Why should attacking skill and base design be more important than upgrade path and base building? If you think it is the most important factor, would you take a highly skilled but rushed TH11 account or a no-skilled but maxed TH11 account in war?Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Because if the clan does not that rushed accounts into war, then they are hypocritical when they complain losing to engineered clans. They dictate an upgrade path and see certain upgrade paths as inferior to them. If upgrade path and base building isn't the determining factor and only attacking skill/base design, why shouldn't they accept and allow rushers in war?Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
How come it is acceptable to shun a player based on their upgrade path then turn around to say wars should only be determined by attacking skill and base design?
Edit: a base is rushed if it has not maxed the previous TH. A TH10 with 29/30 royals is rushed, a TH10 with a single lvl6 tesla is also rushed
All I know is at some point in your clashing career, you must have been traumatized by a clan of maxers. Just let it go, no need to hold grudgesQuote:
Originally Posted by SinOfDusk
He actually makes a very logically sound argument, your response borders on toxicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krastor
I'd want to disagree that base building is equally/more important than attacking skills simply because my own preference is attacking over designing bases. And because attacking can gain up to six stars while a base is limited to losing only up to three stars. But the flip side of that is that a well designed base can eat up opponents attacks making it more valuable than six stars. The base doesn't have to be maxed to eat up attacks though that does not hurt, the well designed/engineered bases, say a 9.5 as an example, can be built so that both TH9's and even TH10's will struggle to 3-star it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SinOfDusk
Hmmm, the more I think about it the more I am coming to believe that war is more strategic than ever. Before engineering started to grow exponentially I never really considered upgrade paths. I just knew that I'd max out everything eventually so often times I'd upgrade the most expensive things first to get them out of the way with no consideration to how it would effect my war experience. But having said that, I think that the advantage gained was far far too large; it did create an environment of either convert to engineering because no other way of play will give an advantage that stretches as far as overwhelming or get pummeled more often than not.
By base building, I mean upgrading path and optimising war weight etc, not base designQuote:
Originally Posted by bouges
very well put, totally agree on last sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouges
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Originally Posted by bouges
I think this is a great point. If you put the time and effort into creating an engineered war focused base, you should get an advantage over a non engineered base. I do believe, (I am an engineer) that the advantage is/has been too great.
The fix is to reduce the advantage not eliminate a play style.
Forst I enjoyed farming. Barch was cool TH sniping was just easy to drop trophies and shield back in the day is all. Wasn't intending that to sound like a complaint. After reading your response I understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSeleulc
As as far as the engineered clans that we've faced - were clearly outmatched via the offensive side. When they have 5 extra TH 11 armies with powered gw's Yes the advantage is to that side because they have better match up attacks on our TH 7,8,9's. Those bases have no chance to defend. which they should be allowed to have a shot if this wasn't the case. It's not a matter of us being able to 3 star those bases because we can. But the advantage of them always having stronger offemse detracts from the game itself. Should we apologize for spending all these years playing raiding developing our bases because we don't have a chance?
I think attacking skill and base design should be way more important than upgrade path. I upgrad path is going to have an advantage, I think it should lean toward actually building and upgrading all defenses, not leaving things out. You disagree. It is an opinion, neither right or wrong. SC agrees with me. If they didn't, there wouldn't be any matchmaking formula at all. They would just match you up and take your chances. If you have a stronger account, that's ok, you earned it. Th11 vs. th5, no problem, the th11 put in more time, they deserve the advantage. That of course is not what SC wants, so they created a matchmaker to try to make the accounts even in power to make skill in attacking and designing the key factors by leveling the playing field. The matchmaker has faults and engineers exploit that fault. I don't blame them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SinOfDusk
As to your second question, the answer is irrelevant, but I would need to know more to answer it in any event. Based on the facts as you described, it doesn't sound like I would want either one in my war, unless by rushed you meant engineered in a way that creates a war advantage.
When Sin argues it is good the engineers have an advantage, that is fine, he can make a valid argument because it is nothing more than a matter of opinion. When anyone argues those opposed to engineering are "wrong" that is where the logic fails.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
Thought maybe, but not time. It isn't any harder or time consuming to make an engineered account than a maxed account. I do agree the fix is to reduce the advantage and I would go farther and say to eliminate the advantage. In my opinion, not building a defensive unit shouldn't create an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
I was talking about his argument that clans who accept strong bases but reject weak troop defence rushed bases is also taking into account he war machmaker, the same thing engineers do, is spot on and logically sound. The response he got for my taste was dancing on the line of toxic.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Oh yeah I agree that is very logical. It is why I totally disagree with anyone claiming engineers are doing something wrong, unethical, cheating, etc. All they are doing is building their base in the way that they believe is most advantageous for war. That isn't wrong it's smart. But, I don't agree with taking that argument one step farther and stating if someone rejects a prospect for war due to being rushed it means they can't complain about engineering because it is hypocritical. That is nonsense. I can engineer bases, I can put engineers in my wars, I can reject badly rushed bases, I can do all of that, yet still think the matchmaker should be adjusted so that there is no advantage to skipping defenses, to not upgrading others, etc. There is nothing hypocritical about that at all. I don't think giving an advantage to engineering is good for the game long term and I think war is more fun when the match is very even in power and the result is determined by the skill of the attackers. Others think it is more fun taking advantage of the matchmaker instead. A lot of thought goes into that, no doubt. I can see the fun in that too. Neither opinion is right or wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
Sadly, it's never been more true. We can discuss strategy and legitimacy, but skill is out of the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
Who can engineer harder. That's the state of clan wars and its sad. SuperCell has gone in some terrible directions in the last iterations, favoring people slumming their way to exploiting algorithms at the expense of those who went about it the right way - in the spirit of the game.
Wrong. It is definitely harder to hold on to loot with an engineered base - and this is the price they pay for being more effective in war.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Maxers will lose much less loot over time, which results in less looting raids requried.
Engineers are optimised for war, Maxers are optimised for multiplayer loot retention.
This is the tradeoff that all maxers ignore.
I'm not anti-engineer, but I never bought this argument. War and farming are completely separate parts of the game, its entirely valid for maxers to not care how hard it is to hold loot as an engineer.Quote:
Originally Posted by RonHN
And I don't think its very hard, until th10 anyway.
Could you be more specific about your definition on strategy, please? Sorry, but I don't see you explain enough about your 'strategy' in your reply to other poster.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
strategy: a plan,method,or series of maneuvers or stratagems for obtaining a specific goal or resultQuote:
Originally Posted by PhinPhan20
The overriding goal in war is to end with more stars than your opponent. Nothing wrong with sending a TH11 full of dragons to burn down a TH9 if that is what you need to do to end up with more stars. Taking a dip can be plain and simple good attack allocation, if it increases the probability that you get the stars you need to win. No point in sending a strong attacker against the enemy's top base if they won't get any more stars than a weaker attack will get, but could get more stars elsewhere than that weaker attacker. And yes, taking advantage of the quirks of the matchmaker is a strategy, see the definition above. You may not like that particular strategy when it is used against you; not sure why anyone would, TBH. However, it is allowed by the current rules of the game, so your beef is with Supercell, not with the players who utilize it.
i sincerely hope that sandbagging does not become the future of clash strategy. While it is not technically breaking the tos, it's obviously not fair play. And if that sits a bit uneasy with you, any decent dictionary ought to clear that up
just asserting its not fair play has no validity since its a subjective opinion based on an aubitrary definition, i could as easily say balanced maxing is obviously not fair play. Its toxic and meaningless. You also need to get better informed as supercell is constantly balancing the matchmaker to make wars closer snr mor competitive, your like a broken record who seams not willing to percieve new information.Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwyg
the matchmaker has changed, your narrative should follow suit.
i thought this for awhile in the fall, that SC was making strides towards more equitable war matchups, but for the last few weeks it's been AWFUL! Last night my clan got one of the worst matchups we've ever had, another engineered clan amongst of string of recent matches against engineered clans. We have no chance of winning, my clan and I are ♥♥♥♥♥♥, and we're about ready to close up shop and sit out wars for awhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
Its not just that I, our clans #1 and lone th11, is outgunned both offensively AND defensively by their #1. But the TH10.5 with max bowlers and 30/35/5 heroes in the #2 spot really hurts. And then to add further insult to injury, their THIRD TH11 in the #11 spot with 31/35/11 heroes, max hounds, loons, baby drags, and bowlers but no xbows, infernoes or eagle.
It's nonsense and something has to change. NOT building key defenses in a tower defense strategy game should NOT pair you with clans you can roflstomp and create wars that are over before they begin. Were so thoroughly, totally, and unimaginably freaking sick of it...
Nope, other than the extreme defenseless accounts with max heroes, it isn't hard at all to engineer. You can rush ahead skipping defenses and farm in low leagues easily. Grinding out every defense and troop for a maxed account is just as hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by RonHN
My clan is in the same boat.Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
Current state of Clans Wars is a race to the bottom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
I feel your pain there, nerfedname. Really do, unfortunately.
People always ask me what's it going to take to get me to quit playing Clash. SC doing all they can to make that a reality.
I am closer this morning to quitting this game that I have been in 2.5 years... no joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
I had quit forums, but have to add to this...Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
I war in 3 clans, all mixed. I also lead a well balanced mixed clan, always have. Zero lopsided bases. Nearing 400 wins, etc etc. I've never been a fan of MM in mixed wars, nor have I ever been a fan of people who continue to act like everything is fine, SC tightened this and that, blah blah blah. It is the same people for 18+ months anyways with this head in the sand attitude.
Our last two war matches of 30vs30 we had 2 TH11, 4 TH10 and the rest TH8-9 in various weights, none engineered. War #1 we faced a hyper engineered opponent with 11 engineered or defenceless TH10&11. 11 engineered and defenceless accounts out of 30?! And still with two full max anchors?! Current war, even worse yet with again with the opponent having 12 extra FULL MAX TH10&11 attacks than us due to engineered and defenceless accounts. Both wars enemy had over 600 hero advantages.
For the first time EVER since CW started, I'm now opting out of wars. All of my 12+ accounts are red. War is 100%, truly broken lately and I refuse to take part. I've missed less than 20 wars in 3 years, war is the only reason I have left to log into CoC. Now it's gone.
This is not new either. 2 months ago I posted a thread about a crazy insane mismatch with opponent having over 900 hero lv advantage, and an extra 5-6 TH11 accounts. The usual self proclaimed forums CW expert analysts did there thing by asking a dozen questions and telling me what can be done to limit MM. One well known Forumer even visited and somehow deemed the match to be decent. Needless to say I stopped paying attention to anyone here claiming they knew anything more than the average folks upset at MM. I'm sure they'll chime in here again and tell me the MM is my own fault for warring TH8-11 etc.
Tl;Dr: The last two months it has been absurd, but lately war MM got so bad due to TH10/11 engineers that I've called it quits. Well played SC. Well played.
In all honesty, had we not been already committed and locked into season two of MLCW...I probably wouldn't be around to respond to these posts. Never thought I'd be in this spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
I'm sure the MM tweaks are working/improving for at least one more segment of the Clans that war- for us it has been anything but.
That s worrying, the last 4 weeks i know there have been rapports of heavy mismatches, going both ways (pro and against engineered clans). It seams before that supercell had done a good job of making things more even, i hope they have not reversed progress made.Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
how do you know its a engineering caused mismatch, versus a simple mismatch?
He described the 2 engineered TH11s that caused the mismatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
Here is a good example of why more description and details are needed, a mismatch plus the presence of engineered accounts doesnt mean it was an engineered mismatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by WastingGems
if i draw a heavy mismatch, and the opposition has 1 mighty statue, and I have none, can conclude that the mismatch is due to the mighty statue? If the opposition has 2 maxed bases and I have none, was it a maxer created mismatch?
for people to understand a problem, both if it actually exists, the cause, and how the cause caused the mismatch, some details are needed.
sandbag
ˈsan(d)baɡ/
verb
3.
deliberately underperform in a race or competition to gain an unfair advantage.
Seems mr dictionary knows it's unfair.
It stands to reason then, that sandbagging isn't fair play.
Keep your head up nerfed, hopefully your next war will happen on a level playing field.
Most engineered bases we see have spent serious money. Load up a few 50 wars to see what I mean and carry a few high level 11's on your side. Last 10 clans we have faced have engineered bases. Defenseless th10's with maxed hero's and troops that end up across from our th08's. 11's with maxed wardens paired to our 09s. Usually with th06 achievement stats. Less than a million Heroic and level 40 hero's? Yeah that wasn't cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by DOOM2U
Its the way war is now. Everyone needs an advantage. I miss the old days.
And to the ones who say recent changes are helping. We are seeing the opposite and based on the threads I see here other clans feel the same.
Mighty statues do not have war weight. They can not be used to exploit the MM. Engineered TH11S can and do, like in Nerf's example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
I think this is a common occurrence in internet discussions. People often disagree with the argument they think someone is making rather than what that person actually says. You see it a lot in people who view the world as black and white / you're either on my side or an enemy / nuance is only a trick by the other side to win the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Looks like people have been using the term "sandbagging" incorrectly to refer to engineering, since sandbagging is unfair and engineering isn't. Or, maybe this is a case of language evolving, and the definition of "sandbagging" is changing.Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwyg
yes, but what about the 2 maxed bases example. Maxed bases were the first type of engineering and are penalty free.Quote:
Originally Posted by WastingGems
we know by logic the mighty statue cannot cause a mismatch, and engineered bases can therorectical, but the presence is not enough to prove they are the cause of the mismatch, you have to look at the weights and levels to ascertain they cause.
This is just hyperbole repeated several times over. If you could provide proof of this claim I'd agree with you. Let's face the facts, most of these defenseless 11s were farmed with illegal methods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biz
It's unfair to the clan that got denied a chance at an even war.Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
Come on dude that is kinda toxic, your letting your hate for engineers lead to to make a totally baseless accusation.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
Toxic? How so? If the truth is toxic idk what to tell you mate. I don't side step around a situation just because some can not accept facts. I just state them and move on. Prove me wrong and I'll consider it toxic.
I think it's toxic you're calling me toxic for stating a fact that is in fact non toxic.
During our last 50 war I posted about I invited anyone to come by and look.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
I even left the clan open. You know how many showed up? None.
That was my proof. Just because you missed the thread or failed to come and look doesn't mean it's "hyperbole".
I have no reason to post a thread, exaggerate it and then offer for ANYONE to come and see. What would I gain from this?
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...esome-50-match
if you accuse someone of theft, you dont simply say your a theif, prove your not a theif, and I will stop calling you one. No, if you cant proof they are a theif, they sue you and they win.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
if you cant prove what you say regarding defencless bases being built using bots, then you are making unfounded accusations, and allthough you cant be sued on the forum, it certainly is toxic. You cant simply walk up to someone, disparage their reputation with accusations not backed up by evidence, and then demand they proof they are not the thing you are asserting.
So please explain how you know this "fact".
No mate, you have your blinders on. You're only seeing what you want. It's a known fact before the fair play act that a lot of dless accounts were built through illegals methods. The is NO denying that. You can keep your blinders on and focus on what you only see in front of you. I refuse to do so. Good day...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
chriss, its a known fact that i am 100 meters tall. There is NO denying that.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
come on dude, you must provide some actual evidence, or rescind your accusations of cheating.
Count the builders next time you see one. Bet they gemmed at least that much, and since its someone's second/third/nth account that's a little something extra straight to SC's bottom line. Marginal cost to SC for that account, zero. Marginal revenue, positive. I have no proof either but it wouldn't surprise me if engineer rerolls are SCs best source of new paying accounts at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
This is of course irrelevant to the issue of whether they're appropriately weighted, righteous or evil, hygienic or filthy, crime or magic, etc.
Oh, no doubt, it's caught on like a wildfire. I have little doubt people are gemming up dless 11s. Think back about 2 years ago, how many do you suppose we're spending money?Quote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
Here are some details for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
2,365,000 Total Defense Weight 2,410,000
1,011,000 Top 10 Defense Weight 1,073,000
9,980 Total War Offense Numbers 10,139
1,658 Total Heroes 1,723
14 Total TH11 attacks w/ GW 30
125 Total GW Level 258
This is about on par with every other war we've paired in the last three weeks. Maybe the GW numbers will be a bit closer, the TH11 ratio will be closer- but then to counter that, the total hero level will be higher. Or their overall/top 10 defensive weight will be even more of severe.
You don't need me to get any more in depth with the above details, I know you can fill in the blanks on exactly what kind of matchup that is.
I don't have an issue with engineered bases, or engineers. My problem stems from how SC continues to tweak and screw with the MM algorithm, and the affects of doing so.
is that 30 Grand warden attacks to 14? Hard to see what limits are evident with regard to in lane marching unless the clan has many accounts without max freeze.Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
the opponents havent used light defence strong offence as an offset, as they are heavier defencsivly (so its not -1000000 defence offset by +1000000 offence), it does seam like the offence has mismatched iether by a large allowance or by a manicured offence (not maxing freeze, keeping all non war troops and spells low etc), and the offence numbers speak against a manicured offence though. Wonder if they have reduced offensive weight again?
having 14 Grand warden th11 attacks to 30 is like having 14 archer Queen attacks to 30, or 14 eagle to 30, it really should not happen.
If matchmaking had more of an ELO component then it would be possible to sandbag. As it is, engineers are more like boxers, fighters, or wrestlers choosing how to make weight. Sacrifice leg strength for more upper body weight? Cut heavily before weigh in despite the dehydration issues? These are strategic choices, not sandbagging, not "deliberately underperforming". Deliberately losing to generate a better matches through the 'recent win record' mechanic would be sandbagging, and to my knowledge its done by roughly no one.Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwyg
Its irrelevant as wheterh/how the MM system should be adjusted, but the term 'sandbagging' is a pretty poor fit for the situation. Which makes it seem like just a way to slip an insult into the conversation.
That is exactly what it is, and why the term is used. Clever way to insult without getting an infraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
Yes. Pairing was 7 TH11s to 15. Three defenseless bases at the bottom of the map, of course. It was an odd pairing, if you just dismissed the bottom 5 bases (and thereby the 11s) and looked at the numbers, I could have lived with it. At least had a shot of winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
So where are you suggesting the problem has come from? They seem to simply be better on everything there. And it sounds like you're saying you get this repeatedly.Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
Sounds like hyperbole. Can you provide some proof that "most" we're farmed with illegal methods? Burden of proof is on the one making the accusation. I have no doubt that some were made that way, but I also have no doubt that some will show profiles indicating that substantial gem use was the secret.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
Sandbagging is deliberately underperforming to hide ability and draw an easier match. Do you see any of these clans deliberately losing to draw an easier opponent? Their bases are not hidden from the matchmaker; it has full visibility to see what they are or are not taking to war. Are they taking advantage of the matchmaker? Looks like they are tailoring their efforts to get the best possible results for themselves while staying just inside the limits of what is allowed. SC will continue tweaking the game to try to neutralize the advantage, clans will continue to observe and adjust. Who knows, we might even get an occasional complaint on the forum.Quote:
It's unfair to the clan that got denied a chance at an even war.
FWIW, the only defenseless or near defenseless TH11s I have seen I found in multi-player, and I attacked them for novelty value. Most of them had a random collection of ineffective stuff at low levels, so I suspect they were just foolish upgrades by someone who thought it would be cool to have a max TH. I get no benefit from someone running defenseless TH11 bases (the ones I find rarely have much loot), so don't waste your breath arguing that I'm just another of those bullies destroying everything that is pure and good about the game :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
That example listed was the most extreme of late. Many of our other pairings have been fairly ridiculous as well, though. The last three weeks, the pairings have not been kind. I know it can't be this way for a large segment of clans that war. We obviously don't have a clan make up that is favorable (or even equal) to be taking to war against the current MM.
Brings me into one of my other complaints- SC can change up everything, 180 the game- yet the player base has little ability to react appropriately to the tweaks. Unless you consider ditching players and accounts, and adjusting with the appropriate required bases every few months. We can't undo that inferno, or eagle drop. Can't do anything with maxed troops that are no longer useful. or used- in wars (but no doubt factor into the algorithm).
is your impression you are simply getting lousy matches, or does it seam the matches are being created due to engineering?Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
My impression is that based on our current defense levels, offense/hero levels, TH makeup- just isn't a good mix for the latest MM tweak. And not just by a little bit. It's not being created by engineering, it's whatever the MM now deems as an acceptable match. Giving us a 150k defensive weight advantage in the bottom 5 bases...then taking that same 150k and applying it to the other side on the top 12, 15- does not make the sum total a fair match. Sure, the numbers line up on paper. Doesn't make it a fair match.
I wouldn't say I've enough data with just the last 10, 11 wars and a handful of other clans to go on- to make any fair educated guess as to exactly what was tweaked. I will say I'm quite sure it's in SC's continual effort to try and get a handle on lopsided bases/clans. Making tweaks that make help in one segment of war pairings, but no doubt fouling it up in another. We just happen to be part of that "other" group this time around.
I will vouch for cnaf. I have personally witnessed some of these mentioned pairings. I am pretty good with connecting lines and equalizing a match. Seeing how the advantages in different areas equal out. But a few of the pairings he is talking about and the extreme one left me scratching my head. I was not able to draw any lines or equal out the match in my head. Cnaf's clan is 99.9% balanced bases with 1 or 2 .25's in a 30 vs 30. Nothing lopsided or excessively engineered. For whatever reason the MM just has trouble pairing his clan.
There has to be some truth to what cnaf is saying (and i have mentioned it before). When SC tweaks with the match maker, you current clan structure could be hosed by the changes. There isn't anything wrong with the villages per say, but for whatever reason the MM now see's it as an extreme hard to match clan. While other clans by random chance now have the ultimate war roster most appeasing to the new MM programming.
My documented clan has been having much better success lately with matches. Win streaks are longer, higher destruction %'s even got a perfect score recently. We haven't done any drastic changes, but it seems our structure fits with the current version of the MM.
Deliberately tricking the mm system into matching you against a weaker opponent is the topic at hand.
I sincerely hope sc fixes this problem with sandbagging soon.
Nerfed, keep your chin up buddy. Sc knows about the issue. It's just a matter of time. (Hopefully less time than they took with modders)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwyg
you constantly spam the forums with the same message stating engineering is cheating, im pretty sure its against forum rules.
heres your last one.Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwyg