Should engineers play in their own sandbox?

We've had many people complaining about how the engineered players and their clans have dominated and ruined the war mm system. So should they have matches with clans of their type? What are your views on it??

Yes! If they did this, it could perhaps cut down on their wins!
Ik it's not a petition...

/signed

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Originally Posted by XtremeGamer234

We've had many people complaining about how the engineered players and their clans have dominated and ruined the war mm system. So should they have matches with clans of their type? What are your views on it??

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That's the entire idea behind the MM tweaks that have been ongoing for months.

for the most part this is already happening

Sure, on one condition...I alone get to determine what is and is not an engineered base.

You must upgrade your base in exactly the order that I proclaim if you want to be in the "real" matchmaking searches.


Nevermind, OP beat me to it lol

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Originally Posted by XtremeGamer234

We've had many people complaining about how the engineered players and their clans have dominated and ruined the war mm system. So should they have matches with clans of their type? What are your views on it??

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If you are gonna remove their only advantage in the game, then there is no need to do this sort of thing. It would be much easier and much cheaper in terms of work-hours if you just set a minimum weight for each TH.

No, let them play in a litterbox. Its a much more suitable arena.

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Originally Posted by FarlesworthIII

Sure, on one condition...I alone get to determine what is and is not an engineered base.

You must upgrade your base in exactly the order that I proclaim if you want to be in the "real" matchmaking searches.


Nevermind, OP beat me to it lol

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Hi, my name is Jose, and I'm in an engineered clan. Now thats out of the way, the matching is already doing what you wanted. We never face a maxxer clan, ever, always other engineers. Its actually pretty awesome.

We are mildly engineered in the fact that we don't take any infernos or higher into the the war. We usually match with other more seriously engineered clans, more so when our win streak goes 10+. These clans we match with have lots of defence less bases with big bases up top. Usually we are seeing 15+ IT vs our 0.

Its fine for us because we have lots of max offence up top, so we can crush their strong defences, whereas their top attackers usually struggle against our non-IT but otherwise max bases.

I'm fine with how the matching is right now. The wars are usually extremely close and exciting, and every hit counts at all levels. Just like how clan wars should be. It sure would be nice if SC could design the mm and offence/defence balance properly, but they can't, time and time again. So we have found our own balance and the game has never been more fun.

We just got matched with our 3rd heavily engineered clan in 5 wars now. Seriously, why must I invest two days of my time on some guys who blatantly cheat to manipulate the war weight?

There is absolutely zero reason why a th11 with a level 42 king/45 queen/20 warden should have a weight equivalent of a low th10/high 9 simply because he chooses not to build infernos/EA. Offensive weight needs to hold the same weight or more than defense. As it stands, defense is the most strenuous and time consuming investment, yet, we're heavily penalized for maxing it.

I'm optimistic for the next update. Supercell has heard our complaints long enough now, and we want to have "fair play" already. I never considered walking away from this game, but I'm at a breaking point where if this don't change, I likely will.

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Originally Posted by kevs926

If you are gonna remove their only advantage in the game, then there is no need to do this sort of thing. It would be much easier and much cheaper in terms of work-hours if you just set a minimum weight for each TH.

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Minimum weight for each townhall is a must. Having 2 or 3 maxed units for respective townhall should add significant weight as well. Let's say three from safe measures, that way 3 maxed units is enough got a viable war raid for respective townhall tiers. Heroes also need to have a massive boost in war weight as well. Nothing more frustrating than a th11 subtly popping up in a mid range pack of th9's with a level 20 warden just chillin in his base.

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Originally Posted by Pyrodox

Offensive weight needs to hold the same weight or more than defense. As it stands, defense is the most strenuous and time consuming investment, yet, we're heavily penalized for maxing it.

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Im sorry but the only people who think that, let alone write it down, are the ones who have never done the max hero grind. Defence is pathetically easy, especially those 3 incredibly OP game breaking defences.

Those 3 defences are the whole reason engineering exists. SC only have themselves to blame. Engineers just want to play a game where their hard-won max offence has a good chance of crushing their enemies.

Yes... I think so. Right now my clan is warring with an engineered clan in a 30/30 war. #26 is a TH 10 with Lv 20 AQ and maxed TH 10 troop. Our #26 is a new TH 8. Their #25 is a TH 11 with maxed TH 10 war troop and a lv 8 GW. Our #25 is again, a TH 8. Their #24 is the same as their #25 and ours is again, a TH 8. These are just examples, the entire clan is engineered, some bases newer at it than others. We are just a normal clan with mostly maxers and a few .5 bases that have recently upgraded their TH. We always fight hard against these types of clans, but can never seem to beat them because let's face it, they have a greater advantange at 3 starring our top bases because they have more top troop. The clan feels demoralized everytime we get one in our search.

I don't fault engineered clans, but let them war with others like them. For the record, IMO ...an engineered base is a base that upgrades TH several levels and maxes offense (troop and heroes) to sit low with the little bases. A TH 11 with max troop sitting down with the TH 7's and 8's, is just wrong.

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Im sorry but the only people who think that, let alone write it down, are the ones who have never done the max hero grind. Defence is pathetically easy, especially those 3 incredibly OP game breaking defences.

Those 3 defences are the whole reason engineering exists. SC only have themselves to blame. Engineers just want to play a game where their hard-won max offence has a good chance of crushing their enemies.

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Engineers want an advantage to make it easier to win based on the matchup as opposed to just skill in attacking and base designing. There is NOTHING wrong with that, but it should be admitted.

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Originally Posted by kevs926

If you are gonna remove their only advantage in the game, then there is no need to do this sort of thing. It would be much easier and much cheaper in terms of work-hours if you just set a minimum weight for each TH.

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This isn't a good fix either, setting a minimum weight that depends on TH hurts rushers. There are a lot of rushers who haven't grasped the concept of maxing or strategic rushing and along with that, not having the knowledge how the MM works. Ideally, SC should find the sweet spot for engineers and maxers, the thing is engineers should only have a small advantage, not a tremendous advantage that the matchup pretty much decides the outcome.

SC may want to avoid the decline from the 2015 Dec. update, taking this one step at a time is better than an all out rework of the system

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Originally Posted by jqgunty

for the most part this is already happening

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I agree, until you get a win streak. As soon as we have 5+ wins in a row we seem to see more engineered bases.

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Im sorry but the only people who think that, let alone write it down, are the ones who have never done the max hero grind. Defence is pathetically easy, especially those 3 incredibly OP game breaking defences.

Those 3 defences are the whole reason engineering exists. SC only have themselves to blame. Engineers just want to play a game where their hard-won max offence has a good chance of crushing their enemies.

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You just previously wrote you're in an engineered clan, and happy with war, and even stated on record that you feel it's balanced. Sorry, but your opinion doesn't hold much weight here, as you're clearly partial towards heavily favoring the scale in your favor. For the record, I have a 41 king, 40 queen, 20 warden, and maxed defenses with about 80 lava walls to go (all white walls done), so I guess that in itself debunks your first sentence.

My attitude is quickly changing to it wont matter soon as they will be the only clans in war matchmaking.

Our current horrendous war draw coming off of two losses clearly showed me the futility of my clans th11s being in the mix with our th8 and th9s. So unless all my clans th11 and th10s are opted in, they are now permanently opted out of war until our th9s have moved up to th10. I am not sure how long my clans th7,8, and th9s will remain opted in war if my narrowing of the th spread fails to stop us from drawing engineers.

So my view of the future is that engineering is going to cause my clan and most normal th spread clans to quit warring (or all move to farm war alliance if they still need to level their clan). Then only engineers will be left.

Might be fun to see the forum topics about how to get clans to participate in war. Kind of like the how we get the topics on how to force people to trophy push to Titans and legends.

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Originally Posted by Pyrodox

We just got matched with our 3rd heavily engineered clan in 5 wars now. Seriously, why must I invest two days of my time on some guys who blatantly cheat to manipulate the war weight?

There is absolutely zero reason why a th11 with a level 42 king/45 queen/20 warden should have a weight equivalent of a low th10/high 9 simply because he chooses not to build infernos/EA. Offensive weight needs to hold the same weight or more than defense. As it stands, defense is the most strenuous and time consuming investment, yet, we're heavily penalized for maxing it.

I'm optimistic for the next update. Supercell has heard our complaints long enough now, and we want to have "fair play" already. I never considered walking away from this game, but I'm at a breaking point where if this don't change, I likely will.

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Firstly, it has been well established that engineering is not cheating. Calling players who are playing within the rules "cheats" is seen as name calling on the forums.

Secondly, a th11 with a level 42 king/45 queen/20 warden will never count as a low TH10/high 9. That base's map position only indicates its relative defensive weight within its own clan. Its offensive weight is taken into account by the MM.

WRT the OP, there doesn't need to be a separate pool for engineered clans. As long as the MM does its job and provides equal matches then it shouldn't matter whether the clans are engineered, maxed, rushed or a mixture.

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Originally Posted by Zegaloft

This isn't a good fix either, setting a minimum weight that depends on TH hurts rushers. There are a lot of rushers who haven't grasped the concept of maxing or strategic rushing and along with that, not having the knowledge how the MM works. Ideally, SC should find the sweet spot for engineers and maxers, the thing is engineers should only have a small advantage, not a tremendous advantage that the matchup pretty much decides the outcome.

SC may want to avoid the decline from the 2015 Dec. update, taking this one step at a time is better than an all out rework of the system

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So who should be punished? Rushers? Or maxers? As it stands, maxed bases are heavily penalized.

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Originally Posted by Pyrodox

So who should be punished? Rushers? Or maxers? As it stands, maxed bases are heavily penalized.

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Sounds like you need to move into a all maxer clan for wars. That is the only way the maxxer war paradigm makes any sense. Then you will always get matched with other maxxers and you will finally be happy. Until then, the maxxer is no better than the engineer. The maxxer simply maxes his defence, then comes onto the forums to complain about matching. The engineer simply maxes their offence, then crushes bases in war. You had the same choice they did, deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Zegaloft

This isn't a good fix either, setting a minimum weight that depends on TH hurts rushers. There are a lot of rushers who haven't grasped the concept of maxing or strategic rushing and along with that, not having the knowledge how the MM works. Ideally, SC should find the sweet spot for engineers and maxers, the thing is engineers should only have a small advantage, not a tremendous advantage that the matchup pretty much decides the outcome.

SC may want to avoid the decline from the 2015 Dec. update, taking this one step at a time is better than an all out rework of the system

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Actually setting a minimum th level weight is is a very appropriate fix. As was pointed out to me in a different thread when I realized the futility of my clans current match up. "It is hard for you to defend against one th level above you, there is no way there should be an expectation you can defend against th offenses that are two level above you."

And I don't see it hurting rushers as they aren't going to get into war anyway when clans wont accept them or allow them into war because it seems to guarantee you will match an engineered clan.

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Originally Posted by Pyrodox

So who should be punished? Rushers? Or maxers? As it stands, maxed bases are heavily penalized.

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Neither, so that's why the MM should be tweaked to cater to all types of players, whether they be engineers, rushers or maxers. You can't just choose who benefits and then the other one suffers. Maxer clans can avoid engineering by putting well upgraded 10s in the roster.

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Originally Posted by Chusker

Actually setting a minimum th level weight is is a very appropriate fix. As was pointed out to me in a different thread when I realized the futility of my clans current match up. "It is hard for you to defend against one th level above you, there is no way there should be an expectation you can defend against th offenses that are two level above you."

And I don't see it hurting rushers as they aren't going to get into war anyway when clans wont accept them or allow them into war because it seems to guarantee you will match an engineered clan.

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Then isn't that the same as saying an engineered 11 is near the weight of an 11 that has dropped all the defenses? If that's the case, for the more dedicated engineers, it just gets worse. By the day, engineering is becoming a common practice. The hammer can't simply be brought down.

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Sounds like you need to move into a all maxer clan for wars. That is the only way the maxxer war paradigm makes any sense. Then you will always get matched with other maxxers and you will finally be happy. Until then, the maxxer is no better than the engineer. The maxxer simply maxes his defence, then comes onto the forums to complain about matching. The engineer simply maxes their offence, then crushes bases in war. You had the same choice they did, deal with it.

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I will agree with you that it is not cheating, it is gaming the system to allow your clan a maximum advantage in war.

Though I think you will find is that the way people deal with it is either to start engineering, going the FWA route, clans of maxxed th10/11, or completely opting out of war all together. With the end result being that a lot fewer clans war, and the vast majority will be engineered. But that is the end goal right?

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Originally Posted by Zegaloft

Neither, so that's why the MM should be tweaked to cater to all types of players, whether they be engineers, rushers or maxers. You can't just choose who benefits and then the other one suffers. Maxer clans can avoid engineering by putting well upgraded 10s in the roster.



Then isn't that the same as saying an engineered 11 is near the weight of an 11 that has dropped all the defenses? If that's the case, for the more dedicated engineers, it just gets worse. By the day, engineering is becoming a common practice. The hammer can't simply be brought down.

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I believe sinofdisk (sorry if I misspelled your forum name) and all his posts pushing strategic rushing disagree mightily with your assertion that a engineer with 20/20/10 heros will be unable to quickly come up to a good defensive level quite quickly. Defenses appear immediately on the war map.

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Originally Posted by Doddsyuk

Engineeering is like tax avoidance, it may not be against the rules but that doesn't mean it's right. Anyone who exploits loopholes in this way have low morals. I would say they are basically bullies, cowards who are too scared to enter a fair fight who pick on the weak while hiding from the strong! It's pretty sad that people feel the need to try and cheat the system in this way!:(

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They aren't cheating the system, because there is no system that says maxxing is the only way to play. And BTW tax avoidance IS illegal. The term you are looking for is "tax minimisation". Its a pretty good analogy actually.

But if you're going there, then the maxxer is like the old rich rent-seeking neoliberal, sitting there in their gated mansion, blaming everything on all the peasents and young people just trying to survive in the world designed to be stacked against them.

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

You had the same choice they did, deal with it.

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Those of us that have been around way before cw existed would disagree.

We never get matched against maxers. They are always either engineered or rushed with weak heroes. (We don't have strong defenseless bases but many .5 and a few th10 without xbows/infernos for example.)

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Sounds like you need to move into a all maxer clan for wars. That is the only way the maxxer war paradigm makes any sense. Then you will always get matched with other maxxers and you will finally be happy. Until then, the maxxer is no better than the engineer. The maxxer simply maxes his defence, then comes onto the forums to complain about matching. The engineer simply maxes their offence, then crushes bases in war. You had the same choice they did, deal with it.

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So because engineering has gotten so out of hand, you're suggesting I leave the clan I've invested over 3 years of my time to seek a fair playing field? You seem quite content with the current system, and understandably so. Hopefully SC can address this issue that has been plaguing war for a while to make us all happy to some degree.

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Sounds like you need to move into a all maxer clan for wars. That is the only way the maxxer war paradigm makes any sense. Then you will always get matched with other maxxers and you will finally be happy. Until then, the maxxer is no better than the engineer. The maxxer simply maxes his defence, then comes onto the forums to complain about matching. The engineer simply maxes their offence, then crushes bases in war. You had the same choice they did, deal with it.

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Not everyone had the same choice, at least not with their first account. There wasn't always war, you know. I don't blame engineers at all for seeking an advantage to make it so they have more power due to the faults of the match making system. However, I also support SCs efforts to adjust the matchmaker to remove as much of that advantage as possible. I prefer a war system where the outcome is decided, as much as possible, on the skill of the attacking and base designing of the players in the war, not their skill in taking advantage of the match maker. I also support a system that more closely aligns with what is good for multiplayer trophy pushing. A player shouldn't have to decide whether to build a defense because it helps in multiplayer but hurts in war. Just my opinion. So, now am I supposed to say "deal with it" or something else like that?

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Originally Posted by XtremeGamer234

We've had many people complaining about how the engineered players and their clans have dominated and ruined the war mm system. So should they have matches with clans of their type? What are your views on it??

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In short, YES.

I don't care if you engineer or not. the problem arises when engineers and non-engineers are matched with each other. Without bothering to debate whether it is unfair, cheating, smart strategy, etc., this is why people complain. Allow non-engineers to face off against similar clans, and engineers should be OK with facing other engineers.

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Originally Posted by milomilomilo

In short, YES.

I don't care if you engineer or not. the problem arises when engineers and non-engineers are matched with each other. Without bothering to debate whether it is unfair, cheating, smart strategy, etc., this is why people complain. Allow non-engineers to face off against similar clans, and engineers should be OK with facing other engineers.

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See thats the problem. Even maxxers are engineers at some point. Until they get to max def th11.

The whole point of maxxing is to get to end game. Until you get there, you only have yourself to blame for any perceived war matching issues along the way. Just hurry up and max your defences already, and leave the rest of us to play how we want to.

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Originally Posted by Pyrodox

cheat
CHēt/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.
"she always cheats at cards"

Cheating is synonymous with "unfair", as you selected in the PC list of choices I can choose from. Does the word "cheating" trigger you that much?

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I said that you were free to say that you think engineering is unfair. There is a subtle distinction.

Calling players, who are not cheating, "cheats" tends to be counterproductive and can lead to negative consequences. A nod's as good as a wink, etc.

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Originally Posted by milomilomilo

In short, YES.

I don't care if you engineer or not. the problem arises when engineers and non-engineers are matched with each other. Without bothering to debate whether it is unfair, cheating, smart strategy, etc., this is why people complain. Allow non-engineers to face off against similar clans, and engineers should be OK with facing other engineers.

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That is not really the problem. The problem is when a matchup is significantly unfair. Just because a clan is engineered, it is not automatically an unfair matchup. There are numerous sporting contests, where one team has better offense, and the other has better defense. Could be the players, could be coaches, could be strategy. Not by definition unfair.

It it becomes unfair, when 1 team has much better offense AND defense. Engineered clans are not necessarily better on both sides.

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Originally Posted by XtremeGamer234

We've had many people complaining about how the engineered players and their clans have dominated and ruined the war mm system. So should they have matches with clans of their type? What are your views on it??

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To be perfectly honest.... I don 't believe engineers care whose sandbox they play in. More than likely they will adapt it.
It's a game to them.

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Originally Posted by themariofan

That's the entire idea behind the MM tweaks that have been ongoing for months.

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You are correct. It seems like SC is tweaking it already so if you have a certain number of engineered bases you are going to meet an engineered clan.

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Originally Posted by XtremeGamer234

We've had many people complaining about how the engineered players and their clans have dominated and ruined the war mm system. So should they have matches with clans of their type? What are your views on it??

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Yes absolutely. Hope it happens tomorrow.

I'm in a slightly engineered clan and we match other engineered clans 9/10 times. The times we match to an non engineered clan is because they have a wide range of TH spreads which makes the matchmaker think you are roster engineering. If you are matched to an engineered clan war after war, its time to examine your own clan makeup.

I enjoy warring against other engineered clans. I don't see how people with more than one base can find maxing to be the only enjoyable playstyle. Its enough that I max one base, why should I repeat the same thing and max my other bases?

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Originally Posted by Zegaloft

This isn't a good fix either, setting a minimum weight that depends on TH hurts rushers. There are a lot of rushers who haven't grasped the concept of maxing or strategic rushing and along with that, not having the knowledge how the MM works. Ideally, SC should find the sweet spot for engineers and maxers, the thing is engineers should only have a small advantage, not a tremendous advantage that the matchup pretty much decides the outcome.

SC may want to avoid the decline from the 2015 Dec. update, taking this one step at a time is better than an all out rework of the system

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This idea scares the daylights out of engineered. Notice the bolded comment. They think they deserve at least a small advantage for doing less work. Also if it is going to happen, begging for it to go slow so they can enjoy the advantage for as long as they can. The rusher argument is also silly. Why should rushers not be at a disadvantage for skipping defenses at lower levels?

Let the dust settle and you'll see everyone has been playing in their own lot for some time now to be honest.

Now that I put that on the table, there are still kids poking at other kids building their own sand castles! Then they follow with complaints, "They keep on messing with my sand castle space!" But this isn't for all, just a few.

SC is tweaking the MM slowly and little by little, but some are growing a hit impatient because it's happening too slowly for their liking. All they have to do now is wait for the next time for the dust to settle.

I think engineers is in the same pool now, along with the premmies which is good. Maxxer looks like hate those premmies too. Let engineer have their fun predating those premmies.

No, engineers are just smart players who found a loophole in the MMS. No need to punish their brilliance.

I don't think it is a loophole. It just how quantization works. But pooling is a brilliant move, everybody is happy now. Surely I would love to be in the same pool with them premmies.

Recruit or put max th11s as the top bases (e.g. No 1-3) & you have a fighting chance against engineering clans. Well this is provided these th11s can at least 2 stars the enemy max bases as well else they are dead weight.

We are handling better against engineering bases with this setup. The other bases are th10 to th7. Anyway the top matters in winning the war not the lower bases.

Max th10s as the anchors are risky as you may draw 10.5s who have max heroes & troops. The advantage definitely will be with the opposing .5s or engineering clans.

Chill and try to recruit max th11s and try out this strategy. Think engineering will always be around perhaps with less advantage with supercell tweaking.

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Originally Posted by Bmille3

No, engineers are just smart players who found a loophole in the MMS. No need to punish their brilliance.

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This is the other thing that kind of bothers me. The idea that all engineers are smart for following the advice of someone who figured out a way to game the system. That guy or girl was smart. Everyone else is following the leader. It also assumes that people maxing are somehow idiots for not. It was universally accepted, before that person figured out the engineering style, that rushing was bad and you should max your townhall before going to the next. Clans only wanted max. I guess everyone was dumb back then but those same people, on new accounts, all have become geniuses. Sorry for dragging on, hard for me to succinct since I am a dumb maxer.

So much anger and animosity on this subject, the ball is in supercell's court in my opinion. They need to make a decision about whether this is the way things are gonna be or not.
I play the game for fun as do most of you. I used to enjoy coming on the forums, but lately the engineering debate is causing me to come here less and less.
I guess it's just wishful thinking on my part but I would like a definitive answer whether the future of clan wars is roster engineering your clan or not.

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Originally Posted by DavidPumpkins

This is the other thing that kind of bothers me. The idea that all engineers are smart for following the advice of someone who figured out a way to game the system. That guy or girl was smart. Everyone else is following the leader. It also assumes that people maxing are somehow idiots for not. It was universally accepted, before that person figured out the engineering style, that rushing was bad and you should max your townhall before going to the next. Clans only wanted max. I guess everyone was dumb back then but those same people, on new accounts, all have become geniuses. Sorry for dragging on, hard for me to succinct since I am a dumb maxer.

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I never even said engineers are smarter they maxers. They use a smart strategy. Congrats to you for maxing, your probably very smart and skilled as well.

I want to say yes, but then it would be unfair to them and kind of ruin the point. Not to be an apologist, but if you spent years of your life or hundreds/thousands on an account to gain a advantage, real or perceived, and were then locked in a pin with everyone who did the same thing, it defeats the point. Suddenly, all the work you did optimizing your base for war and dealing with the pain in the MM becomes moot, because when everyone has the same "advantage" noone has an advantage. It would be unfair to do all that work and get nothing out of it.

And not only that but you then have to suffer in the MM since your base won't be able to retain any loot or defend. It's essentially a sudden double-negative. Your screwed in the MM and your war advantage is suddenly gone, plus your base won't defend in war either. It's essentially just forcing them to max at that point to get out of that slum. And I don't think that's the answer or a right thing to do to people.

And that's without getting into any issues regarding whether someone is unintentionally "engineering" their base, and what we can even consider engineered to begin with. What SC would define as engineering, and whether there would even be an in-game warning system to prevent or warn those unaware of said system.

Honestly, I'd just leave them in the general populace. They aren't breaking any rules and they aren't harassing anyone.

Nobody would ever say a maxxer is dumb. That is the way this game should played. To max everything, you need huge resources which is very hard to get. But, the other hand, there are so many ways we can play this game. Rusher have their fun progressing as soon as possible. They don't care about being beaten. Engineers tried the smartest way possible to enjoy everything.

Like Krastor... I just want to know if this is what COC intends... No judgement on any... Appreciate the genius of engineering ... I think it's pretty brilliant... But how do I lead my clan forward... We want to war... But fairly.. Do I guide them in this direction? So the playing field is fair?

Another waste of a time thread... it's up to the individual what he wants to do with his or her base. If he dosent want all the ♥♥♥♥ that goes with it he dosent have to . Why punish the person for it . It's like you guys are telling people what to put in a base .

And if it was easy as fixing the match ups I think sc would have already fixed it.

One more thing, people argue on here who deserves to have the advantage in war, I don't want an advantage. I want the enemy clan to have as close to the same hero lvl's, offensive troops, and defences as my clan. Win or lose, that makes for exciting and fun wars. I understand that is very hard for supercell to do. But I can wish for it. Sorry for straying off topic.

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Originally Posted by Krastor

One more thing, people argue on here who deserves to have the advantage in war, I don't want an advantage. I want the enemy clan to have as close to the same hero lvl's, offensive troops, and defences as my clan. Win or lose, that makes for exciting and fun wars. I understand that is very hard for supercell to do. But I can wish for it. Sorry for straying off topic.

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Exactly how I feel about war. Makes for the most enjoyable experience. It wasn't long ago that wars like that were pretty common and those days were the golden age of war for me. Winning war was all about skill in attacking, base building and carefully planning how, when and where each clan mates attack would be used.

X.5 bases began to change war matchmaking but it wasn't a terrible thing overall but when engineering began it really crushed the war matchmaking system unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by XtremeGamer234

We've had many people complaining about how the engineered players and their clans have dominated and ruined the war mm system. So should they have matches with clans of their type? What are your views on it??

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No, I don't think it should happen. It's better with all in together with progressive change to the matchmaker continuing to address unfairness in the matchup process. For one, such a sandbox would undermine the system and idea of war itself and likely present difficulties with finding matches in timely ways. And it would also severely disadvantage some, like premmie rushed clans who happen to find themselves grouped in with engineers due to their lineups - the very core of more casual players Supercell is acting to protect. What's needed instead is continued refinement of the matchmaker.

More broadly my view is we already have enough threads on engineering that easily veer into toxicity, so I can't see much point creating more of them even if it is for a novel thought experiment.

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Originally Posted by Bmille3

I never even said engineers are smarter they maxers. They use a smart strategy. Congrats to you for maxing, your probably very smart and skilled as well.

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You are correct, engineers are not smart, which is exactly why they have to engineer a base...So they don't have to think when they attack.

Simply spam mass troops on a lower the base and viola.

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Originally Posted by Pluribus

You are correct, engineers are not smart, which is exactly why they have to engineer a base...So they don't have to think when they attack.

Simply spam mass troops on a lower the base and viola.

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Actually.. I never find this with engineered clans... It is sitting at lower TH with ability to attack Top... Those extra attacks... Always do us in... More top troop.. More attack chances against top .. For me again... Right or wrong.. How would COC like me to move my clan forward? Should I strive to add engineered bases? We are here to compete... But... Just doesn't feel right to do so...

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Originally Posted by Pluribus

You are correct, engineers are not smart, which is exactly why they have to engineer a base...So they don't have to think when they attack.

Simply spam mass troops on a lower the base and viola.

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Ignorance is bliss

Lets say this is implemented, then what happens to clans with .5 bases? So will a .5 base be classified as an engineered base? Will your clan get matched with an engineered clan if one or more of your members happens to upgrade to the next TH and has not dropped their xbow/inferno/eagle yet? There's a bit of ambiguity here.

Some might say yes, throw them into the engineered MM system. But is that fair? What if they haven't saved enough gold for the defense yet? So many questions to be asked regarding this idea.

Engineered is bases multiple TH's ahead of their defenses... Not a new TH that is upgrading smartly with maxed previous TH defenses.. Should be easy to see... I am 10.5 and sit in the TH 11 lineup... Not with the TH 8's

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Originally Posted by DavidPumpkins

This idea scares the daylights out of engineered. Notice the bolded comment. They think they deserve at least a small advantage for doing less work. Also if it is going to happen, begging for it to go slow so they can enjoy the advantage for as long as they can. The rusher argument is also silly. Why should rushers not be at a disadvantage for skipping defenses at lower levels?

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To be honest, it's a double edged sword. Engineers sacrifice their ability to properly defend and compensate for more hits. I don't see how it scares engineers when they fully know the drawbacks of their strategy.

I don't know how you think the rusher argument is silly when the idea is that it sets a MINIMUM weight that depends on TH. Say you have a TH11, no matter how underleveled the defenses are, it will still be weighted as a TH11.

But how is that possible Zegloft... When in war I see TH 11 with max Offense matched with the baby bases? Explain... I want to understand...

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Originally Posted by Pluribus

You are correct, engineers are not smart, which is exactly why they have to engineer a base...So they don't have to think when they attack.

Simply spam mass troops on a lower the base and viola.

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Actually, most engineers do not attack lower bases. They actually hit those bases high up in the list, how high depends on the levels of their troops. So basically, they attack bases that somewhat matches their troops strength -- no spam mass troops as those will fail.

I would imagine if loppers were interested in playing each other they would organise wars like the hardcore and fwa clans do. Seems to me they aren't though, because a lvl playing field would be lvl and that's not y they put in all the effort. Shame really because a defenceless vs defenceless war would be kinda funny.

im assuming there's no league for loppers but if there is they should publicise on forum. I'd be curious to watch that

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Originally Posted by leluuu

But how is that possible Zegloft... When in war I see TH 11 with max Offense matched with the baby bases? Explain... I want to understand...

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Your position on the war map is based on defensive weight, so a defenseless TH11 with maxed offense will sit at the bottom of the war map. However, that doesn't mean that offensive upgrades aren't taken into account by the MM.

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Originally Posted by PinoyIto

Actually, most engineers do not attack lower bases. They actually hit those bases high up in the list, how high depends on the levels of their troops. So basically, they attack bases that somewhat matches their troops strength -- no spam mass troops as those will fail.

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my experience with engineers is that those th11 with max dragons are there to ensure they get matched with th9, and that the th9 is 3 starred right away. then the 2nd attack is to scout or get a couple stars on the top base or two if their enemy has th10 or th11. Then the top bases (max th11) will do the strong attacks on the top bases. So it ensures the multiple shots against the other clas 1 or 2 bases while we have one shot on them.

So how is that not being designed to kill a weak opponent? Though my understanding of engineering maybe weak, because I only see it when we match against engineered clans, and in threads on the forum.

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Originally Posted by Chusker

my experience with engineers is that those th11 with max dragons are there to ensure they get matched with th9, and that the th9 is 3 starred right away. then the 2nd attack is to scout or get a couple stars on the top base or two if their enemy has th10 or th11. Then the top bases (max th11) will do the strong attacks on the top bases. So it ensures the multiple shots against the other clas 1 or 2 bases while we have one shot on them.

So how is that not being designed to kill a weak opponent? Though my understanding of engineering maybe weak, because I only see it when we match against engineered clans, and in threads on the forum.

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Forum threads are in general heavily biased against engineering, if the said engineers are only clearing th 9s then there's abaolutely no reason to complain because th 9 offense is literally overpowered to the point that if youre a th 9 with 15 15 heroes and cant 3 a 3030 max wall th 9 youre probably not as good as you think you are, there is literally no such thing right now as a hard th 9 base if you can perform any 2 of these attacks at a mediocre spamISH level- goho,gohobo, golalo, lalo, hghb...loons and hogs are absolutely ridiculously overpowered at th 9 right now, and the skill level for them now compared to before loon and hog buffs is basically non existant, it has been MONTHS since our 9s have failed to clear the opposing teams 9s as well as 3-4 low to mid 9.5s, most with a 80-95% 3 star ratios, most of which are nowhere near the skill level that was required to 3* before

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Originally Posted by Ngstebb434

Forum threads are in general heavily biased against engineering, if the said engineers are only clearing th 9s then there's abaolutely no reason to complain because th 9 offense is literally overpowered to the point that if youre a th 9 with 15 15 heroes and cant 3 a 3030 max wall th 9 youre probably not as good as you think you are, there is literally no such thing right now as a hard th 9 base if you can perform any 2 of these attacks at a mediocre spamISH level- goho,gohobo, golalo, lalo, hghb...loons and hogs are absolutely ridiculously overpowered at th 9 right now, and the skill level for them now compared to before loon and hog buffs is basically non existant, it has been MONTHS since our 9s have failed to clear the opposing teams 9s as well as 3-4 low to mid 9.5s, most with a 80-95% 3 star ratios, most of which are nowhere near the skill level that was required to 3* before

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So I will cynacally respond to your post, that you agree that engineers will be happy to have their bases matched to those of the same th level in war, because the goal of engineering is to fight against th10 and th11, not draw th8s and th9s in war. It is a travesty that they are being forced into wars cluttered with so many low bases they did not want to attack.

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Originally Posted by Chusker

So I will cynacally respond to your post, that you agree that engineers will be happy to have their bases matched to those of the same th level in war, because the goal of engineering is to fight against th10 and th11, not draw th8s and th9s in war. It is a travesty that they are being forced into wars cluttered with so many low bases they did not want to attack.

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:facepalm:

You got it backwards. The point of engineering is to AVOID hitting well upgraded 10s and 11s. What they want is to match up against 9s which they are sure to mop the floor with them.

I'm in a heavily engineered clan with (now) a long win streak... = Evil??? It seemed to be the way to go when we got smashed by said clans ages ago.

How long of a streak? We are pretty heavily engineered, no defenseless bases, constantly face other engineered clans. Some are better then us, but we are on a 20 streak at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Zegaloft

:facepalm:

You got it backwards. The point of engineering is to AVOID hitting well upgraded 10s and 11s. What they want is to match up against 9s which they are sure to mop the floor with them.

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I agree with you 100% that is the goal of engineering.

However two of our above commenters on this page have written that is not the goal of engineers, or rather reading their posts and the reply to my posts certainly gives the impression that they agree with my labeled cynacal response. I was stating the next logical statement to Ngstebb434 comment reply to my reply to Pinoylto's comment at the top of the page.

Engineerings goal is to draw the weakest possible war opponent to ensure victory in war by exploiting the Supercell implemented offensive vs defensive weighting matchmaking system. And engineering clans and supporters definitely dont want it changed. However i find a lot of their statements try to gloss over the facts such as what an offensive mismatch a th11 offense vs a th9 defense is while ignoring the fact that is exactly what engineering is meant to do. And if done well the engineered clan will also have the top 2 or more th stronger than their opponents top base. As stated I feel responses from the pro engineers, like that of a skilled illusionist, is to try and distract you from that fact. And keep supercell from changing the system in anyway that truly ends lopsided based clans extreme war advantages.

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Originally Posted by junoh

How long of a streak? We are pretty heavily engineered, no defenseless bases, constantly face other engineered clans. Some are better then us, but we are on a 20 streak at the moment.

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44... long? Mostly defenseless bases. Having said that, 80% of opponents are more or less the same.

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Originally Posted by Chusker

I agree with you 100% that is the goal of engineering.

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Then how do you explain the matching of our mildly engineered zero inferno clan, being matched with 16 inferno towers and 1 EA? Doesn't really fit with your engineers matching th9s theory does it.

But you dont see us endlessly moaning about it on the forums, we simply do our best to crush them. Its because we value offence over those silly defences. And we have found a way to overcome them. Its not our fault.

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Originally Posted by Chusker

So I will cynacally respond to your post, that you agree that engineers will be happy to have their bases matched to those of the same th level in war, because the goal of engineering is to fight against th10 and th11, not draw th8s and th9s in war. It is a travesty that they are being forced into wars cluttered with so many low bases they did not want to attack.

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You havnt been im an engineered war clan so without further ado...your opinion is simply wrong in the majority of cases, they engineer for more hits up top which is what ultimately gives them the advantage, th is a joke and any th 9 can clear any th 9 level base with little to no effort or planning engineered or not, on a side note hitting higher us in fact more fun but getting defenses up as fast as offenses up...well its not even close to possible without substantial investment which most people wont do

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Then how do you explain the matching of our mildly engineered zero inferno clan, being matched with 16 inferno towers and 1 EA? Doesn't really fit with your engineers matching th9s theory does it.

But you dont see us endlessly moaning about it on the forums, we simply do our best to crush them. Its because we value offence over those silly defences. And we have found a way to overcome them. Its not our fault.

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Did it cross your mind that maybe probably the enemy clan has engineers and mini maxes of their own? The top bases are used as anchor to prevent the entire clan from being tripled.

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Originally Posted by Zegaloft

Your position on the war map is based on defensive weight, so a defenseless TH11 with maxed offense will sit at the bottom of the war map. However, that doesn't mean that offensive upgrades aren't taken into account by the MM.

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I know SC said this in last chat. It doesn't change fact that someone with a 6 to 4 TH11 advantage does not have judge advantage with extra attacks up top where war are decided. That is the only real issue. The lower bases are all getting 3 starred in any competent war so the defense is immaterial. The fact is they get 12 attacks at top 4 (where the war is decided) versus 8 for other side which is patently unfair. If engineers are so smart, why is this a point on contention? It is amazing to me that people try to justify it.

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Originally Posted by Pyrodox

Minimum weight for each townhall is a must. Having 2 or 3 maxed units for respective townhall should add significant weight as well. Let's say three from safe measures, that way 3 maxed units is enough got a viable war raid for respective townhall tiers. Heroes also need to have a massive boost in war weight as well. Nothing more frustrating than a th11 subtly popping up in a mid range pack of th9's with a level 20 warden just chillin in his base.

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I agree with matching them with each other, I don't agree with mininimum weights, as that puts down rushers. I say offense:defense ratio, going down the map, being matched with equal priority to war weight in groups of 5 or 10

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Originally Posted by DavidPumpkins

I know SC said this in last chat. It doesn't change fact that someone with a 6 to 4 TH11 advantage does not have judge advantage with extra attacks up top where war are decided. That is the only real issue. The lower bases are all getting 3 starred in any competent war so the defense is immaterial. The fact is they get 12 attacks at top 4 (where the war is decided) versus 8 for other side which is patently unfair. If engineers are so smart, why is this a point on contention? It is amazing to me that people try to justify it.

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THIS is THE ONLY reason engineering gives a true advantage in the current meta...th 9s and 9.5s are barely contenders, i do it...i dislike it, but i dislike burning 30 hours a week trying to catch up because i started 2 years late more( rise to more engineering, sorry but im gonna keep bringing that bit in)

The thing that people are contesting is the cliche bit about engineers have no skill and just want to spam and win, when in fact the skill level of the player often times has nothing to do with it, ive seen engineer clans that are absolutely terrible attackers- ive seen just as mamy equally bad unengineered clans, who frequently immediately say they lost because the other clan is engineered when they failed to 3* 50% or more of the th 9s. General statements about a players skill before actually watching them perform is absolutely assinine, next time youre in a war against engineers ask your clans best attacker to watch some of the replays and ask him/her if the attacks were good or not, (not whether the base got steam rolled, rather tye mechanical skills)a lot of the times the answer is not what youd expect....

This thread seems to have become derailed into a general discussion of engineering that rehashes old stuff, rather than a response to the OP's thought. The newer posters on this thread may not be aware that there have been about 500 or so threads on engineering in the last year.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

More broadly my view is we already have enough threads on engineering that easily veer into toxicity, so I can't see much point creating more of them even if it is for a novel thought experiment.

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I'm not sure I agree with this, I understand where you are coming from but I disagree with you in term of wanting to silence people who discuss a legit way of playing the game... It's a tough one ;)


Personally I think the wars must be enjoyable for all parties, no matter if you are maxer or engineer. As long as Supercell don't make wars so booth sides have fun and both sides have almost equal chances of winning, then they are not doing their jobs and it is only reasonable that people complain like crazy.

.oO(If needed for all parties in the game to have fun, then yes give one side it's own matchmaking pool)

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Originally Posted by Tomville

This thread seems to have become derailed into a general discussion of engineering that rehashes old stuff, rather than a response to the OP's thought. The newer posters on this thread may not be aware that there have been about 500 or so threads on engineering in the last year.

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That means it's still an issue for the community. Otherwise threads would sink without comment.

We can't solve the issue here, agreed. But I don't mind multiple threads on issues the community is passionate about, the nerf thing almost got me but if it wasn't top of mind then it wouldn't be so prevelant. So u deal and don't click on the link if u don't care.

I'd rather a healthy community debating the things we care about then crickets. That serves no one. I'd like to think modder nerfs were based on the community uprising rather then forming an orderly queue behind one thread

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Originally Posted by Iydris

I want to say yes, but then it would be unfair to them and kind of ruin the point. Not to be an apologist, but if you spent years of your life or hundreds/thousands on an account to gain a advantage, real or perceived, and were then locked in a pen with everyone who did the same thing, it defeats the point. Suddenly, all the work you did optimizing your base for war and dealing with the pain in the MM becomes moot, because when everyone has the same "advantage" noone has an advantage. It would be unfair to do all that work and get nothing out of it.

And not only that but you then have to suffer in the MM since your base won't be able to retain any loot or defend. It's essentially a sudden double-negative. Your screwed in the MM and your war advantage is suddenly gone, plus your base won't defend in war either. It's essentially just forcing them to max at that point to get out of that slum. And I don't think that's the answer or a right thing to do to people.

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This is probably the most interesting, insightful post of this entire thread.

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Originally Posted by milomilomilo

This is probably the most interesting, insightful post of this entire thread.

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I see no problem with like being matched with like. All these war exerts can be put together to fight all the expert wars together and let us ordinary plebs do our usual boring standard wars.

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Originally Posted by jqgunty

for the most part this is already happening

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from our experience, yes I agree. Not seeing the engineers much now these days.

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Originally Posted by PinoyIto

Actually, most engineers do not attack lower bases. They actually hit those bases high up in the list, how high depends on the levels of their troops. So basically, they attack bases that somewhat matches their troops strength -- no spam mass troops as those will fail.

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Higher bases in the war lineup because they sandbag their way to the bottom, but you are dead wrong if you suggest the reason why someone engineers a TH11 account so they then can attack another TH11. No they engineer an account so they can avoid the challenge of attacking someone in their weight class and instead hope the matchmaking system only matched them against opponents with defenses that are no match for their own offense.

Engineering is all about the cheap way to not have a difficult matchup and to then get easy wins.

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Originally Posted by Iydris

Not to be an apologist, but if you spent years of your life or hundreds/thousands on an account to gain a advantage, real or perceived, and were then locked in a pin with everyone who did the same thing, it defeats the point. Suddenly, all the work you did optimizing your base for war and dealing with the pain in the MM becomes moot, because when everyone has the same "advantage" noone has an advantage. It would be unfair to do all that work and get nothing out of it.

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This is exactly what has already happened to the players that went the max route. Years of their life maxing only to watch their hard work become useless against an account that only put in half the amount of time upgrading, if that.

Engineers should play with like minded players.

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Originally Posted by XtremeGamer234

We've had many people complaining about how the engineered players and their clans have dominated and ruined the war mm system. So should they have matches with clans of their type? What are your views on it??

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SuperCell sorta controls the sandbox and as a previous poster stated it is what it is.....Now, if playing war in this said sandbox needs a little more knowledge given out to said players on effects of both defense and offense upgrades to ones own village or clan both ingame and out of game with a overhaul to clanwars i think in my opinion this would be good for all types of players and clans.

We just matched against a level 12 clan with #10-#15 defenseless bases. #11 is a th11 with no defenses and an almost maxed offense. So...with their top bases heavily out gunning ours we have no shot at winning this war. We have 1 maxed th11 and our th10's are not near as developed as theirs. Not to mention that 11 can basically 3 star 2-10 on our end. We play fair. All of our bases are developed by players and we are not trying to game the system. But much like our last war (2 maxed th11's to our 1) the system set us up to lose. We lost the last war by 2 stars. We were even up all the way but our 2 was a th10 that they easily 3*.

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Originally Posted by Iydris

I want to say yes, but then it would be unfair to them and kind of ruin the point. Not to be an apologist, but if you spent years of your life or hundreds/thousands on an account to gain a advantage, real or perceived, and were then locked in a pin with everyone who did the same thing, it defeats the point. Suddenly, all the work you did optimizing your base for war and dealing with the pain in the MM becomes moot, because when everyone has the same "advantage" noone has an advantage. It would be unfair to do all that work and get nothing out of it.

And not only that but you then have to suffer in the MM since your base won't be able to retain any loot or defend. It's essentially a sudden double-negative. Your screwed in the MM and your war advantage is suddenly gone, plus your base won't defend in war either. It's essentially just forcing them to max at that point to get out of that slum. And I don't think that's the answer or a right thing to do to people.

And that's without getting into any issues regarding whether someone is unintentionally "engineering" their base, and what we can even consider engineered to begin with. What SC would define as engineering, and whether there would even be an in-game warning system to prevent or warn those unaware of said system.

Honestly, I'd just leave them in the general populace. They aren't breaking any rules and they aren't harassing anyone.

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Before the March 2016 war matchmaking update, we worked for YEARS. Since the day war was introduced to build a strong clan. We were one of the first to make it to LVL10 (about a week behind Brutus).

March 2016 update completely screwed over our whole clan and favored rushed idiots who can go from zero to lvl 4 dragons in a few weeks.

Toss in the added stupidity of counting the war log as war weight...and we just tapped out. most went FWA. I just start war with whoever is in and don't care anymore. I've toyed with going FWA but that seems exceptionally boring and a hassle.

Already explained...but since u wanna insist on it ill play with your tone...youre completely off base and are the average angry noob with nothing accurate fo contribute that has no idea what they are talking about wheras the person you are contesting is more or less correct

Quoting pluribus( dont know where the quote went)

It takes several years to max a base which means if you werent playing when the game came out therefore if you want to attack a th in a higher weight class as fast as possible you have to rush to some degree, is this necessarily fair for someone who did invest that time? No, but just because it gives you one or two unfair advantages in war does not make you a skilless player, wheras making said statement does in fact make the person stating it a completely ignorant toxic tool that only brings more toxicity to the table

Don't believe there are any 'rules' about what you can or can't build other than what gets unlocked at each TH level. If people choose to not build stuff, then that's their choice to play how they want to play.

What gives an advantage in one part of the game gives a disadvantage in another.

One of the reasons I enjoy clash so much is the freedom of choice I get in what to build and when, what to attack with etc. Forcing people to conform to a strict set of rules or to only be able to attack similar bases would IMHO ruin the game totally.

Oh, and nobody is forced to war or even to play if they don't like it. If things are so bad you have to complain on here everyday then quit and let the ones that DO want to play get on with it.

Someone disagreed with me, and gave me negative rep. Your such a great guy, you just said "encourages sandbagging". I don't think you even read my post.

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Originally Posted by Bmille3

Someone disagreed with me, and gave me negative rep. Your such a great guy, you just said "encourages sandbagging". I don't think you even read my post.

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Haters gonna hate...if you feel you are accurately contributing to an arguement without being completely toxic about it ignore em and move on, you hold the moral high ground ;)

For anyone that will read this, what's the minimum weight a TH11 with all defenses built at level 1? Coupled with TH9 level troops?
I want to know if only placing that rule on Th11 would do something on this.

The rule of minimum town hall weighting.

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Originally Posted by PinoyIto

Actually, most engineers do not attack lower bases. They actually hit those bases high up in the list, how high depends on the levels of their troops. So basically, they attack bases that somewhat matches their troops strength -- no spam mass troops as those will fail.

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I don't know what highly engineered clans you have faced, but in every case we have faced such clan they have fully exploited their large TH attack advantage and in every case have been dropping 1 or 2 TH levels just to clear our mid field TH9. If you count having the number 29 max offense TH11 min-max attack the number 3 TH 10 as attacking up well then ok. It's still the same kind of silly bullying that characterizes all the engineering clans we face. It is a self deception to claim skill and many painfull hours tending your farm bot to max your defenseless base and claim your intent is to attack up... The fact is all engineer clans do so for one reason. The hope to match with conventional clans and use their overwhelming TH attack advantage to secure the win.

Of course these "skilled" attackers don't want to match similar clans where the massive attack advantage is gone. Why would they want to play on a level field?

Unfortunately engineering is killing clan wars for many non-engineering clans and if SC does not make substantial effective changes to MM we will have 2 sandboxes, one tiny sandbox filled with sad engineering clans, the other filled with FWA clans.

The recent changes have only hurt the least engineered of all bases, the .5 base. The guy who just went up a TH and has sensibly de idea to prioritize attack over defense early on. Clans foolish enough to put these new TH players in will surely face a heavily base and roster engineered clan. In effect these early changes have only hurt legit players and done nothing to offset the min-max clans posting multiple defenseless bases. All the players I know including our clanmates that were playing .8.5 & 9.5 bases have dropped xbows and inferno towers respectively. Once your win streak hits 15-20 you are guaranteed to face a min-max clan with an insurmountable attack advantage. Why bother trying to win at all in this environment?

the match making is just getting unreal lately as well, I've always though that a min weight level for town halls would help offset some of the engineering but still keep .5s as a legit option till your troops are up and your ready for that next jump in th war fare.
Currently we are getting 1 fair match up then 2 rather annoying match ups, are current match up of 3 th11s and 6 th 10s has seen up pull in 6 th11s and 4 th10s. would like to see some even match ups again

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Originally Posted by RichardF

I don't know what highly engineered clans you have faced, but in every case we have faced such clan they have fully exploited their large TH attack advantage and in every case have been dropping 1 or 2 TH levels just to clear our mid field TH9. If you count having the number 29 max offense TH11 min-max attack the number 3 TH 10 as attacking up well then ok. It's still the same kind of silly bullying that characterizes all the engineering clans we face. It is a self deception to claim skill and many painfull hours tending your farm bot to max your defenseless base and claim your intent is to attack up... The fact is all engineer clans do so for one reason. The hope to match with conventional clans and use their overwhelming TH attack advantage to secure the win.

Of course these "skilled" attackers don't want to match similar clans where the massive attack advantage is gone. Why would they want to play on a level field?

Unfortunately engineering is killing clan wars for many non-engineering clans and if SC does not make substantial effective changes to MM we will have 2 sandboxes, one tiny sandbox filled with sad engineering clans, the other filled with FWA clans.

The recent changes have only hurt the least engineered of all bases, the .5 base. The guy who just went up a TH and has sensibly de idea to prioritize attack over defense early on. Clans foolish enough to put these new TH players in will surely face a heavily base and roster engineered clan. In effect these early changes have only hurt legit players and done nothing to offset the min-max clans posting multiple defenseless bases. All the players I know including our clanmates that were playing .8.5 & 9.5 bases have dropped xbows and inferno towers respectively. Once your win streak hits 15-20 you are guaranteed to face a min-max clan with an insurmountable attack advantage. Why bother trying to win at all in this environment?

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Another we upgrade sensibly, they engineer. We run x.5's and got beat by a clan that engineered better.
Before, you say but we drop Xbow/inferno/eagle. Please answer, why did you go the x.5 route?

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Another we upgrade sensibly, they engineer. We run x.5's and got beat by a clan that engineered better.
Before, you say but we drop Xbow/inferno/eagle. Please answer, why did you go the x.5 route?

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Simple. .5's are not "engineering", they are an natural progression of upgrading a current TH lvl to the next. Engineers have defenseless/wall-less bases or have defenses 2 or more levels lower than their TH attack strength. They do this solely to give a brute force advantage since they lack the skills to win in a fair/close to even competition. They are just players who lack courage, protecting a fragile ego.

We actually beat all but the most egregiously engineered clans regularly. Even a clan as solid of ours finds it hard to overcome an 11 base TH 11 attack advantage. Check the war record. I have a max 11 which is my main and a near max TH9. I was only a .5 long enough to farm my heroes and offense up. While I did so I was maxing my point defenses for TH. I waited to drop xbows until I had the attack strength to consistently 3 star TH9 bases with max xbows. When I joined the clan there were 8.5 and 9.5 bases maxing their heroes and attack strength as well. It had offered some advantage in the past to be sure. But this discussion isn't about being out-engineered. Anyone that has worked their way up through the various town halls will mostly agree prioritizing offense to power upgrades over defense is a reasonable path, though to be sure not the only one. Those of us that made a second account mainly for war mostly go the .5 route as it is the least burdensome to the clan during the early TH period. Many choose to drop xbows with L1 AQ and L5 BK and a mix of TH7 and 8 defenses mistakenly thinking they offer significant defense advantage. People like me choose to go a different rout, what exactly is your point?

Everyone agrees there are 2 levels of engineering, the group that thinks prioritizing offense early makes the most sense early to minimize war weight early, and those that create TH11 bases with max offense and heroes but have a TH6 or TH7 war weight. Apparently you see these paths as being equal?

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Originally Posted by RichardF

We actually beat all but the most egregiously engineered clans regularly. Even a clan as solid of ours finds it hard to overcome an 11 base TH 11 attack advantage. Check the war record. I have a max 11 which is my main and a near max TH9. I was only a .5 long enough to farm my heroes and offense up. While I did so I was maxing my point defenses for TH. I waited to drop xbows until I had the attack strength to consistently 3 star TH9 bases with max xbows. When I joined the clan there were 8.5 and 9.5 bases maxing their heroes and attack strength as well. It had offered some advantage in the past to be sure. But this discussion isn't about being out-engineered. Anyone that has worked their way up through the various town halls will mostly agree prioritizing offense to power upgrades over defense is a reasonable path, though to be sure not the only one. Those of us that made a second account mainly for war mostly go the .5 route as it is the least burdensome to the clan during the early TH period. Many choose to drop xbows with L1 AQ and L5 BK and a mix of TH7 and 8 defenses mistakenly thinking they offer significant defense advantage. People like me choose to go a different rout, what exactly is your point?

Everyone agrees there are 2 levels of engineering, the group that thinks prioritizing offense early makes the most sense early to minimize war weight early, and those that create TH11 bases with max offense and heroes but have a TH6 or TH7 war weight. Apparently you see these paths as being equal?

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My point is both x.5 and defense less are engineered. Choosing to build certain defensive items vs. upgrading certain troops is done with the same intention. To get a favorable matchup in war.

If you agree to this, then it becomes difficult to draw a line.
If you are a maxed th9. You upgrade to th10, how many Hero upgrades are appropriate for .5 and when does that cross the line. How many troop upgrades? Is there a magical point that people could agree on?

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Originally Posted by catmand0

Simple. .5's are not "engineering", they are an natural progression of upgrading a current TH lvl to the next. Engineers have defenseless/wall-less bases or have defenses 2 or more levels lower than their TH attack strength. They do this solely to give a brute force advantage since they lack the skills to win in a fair/close to even competition. They are just sad little cowards protecting a fragile ego.

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We get it. You don't like engineers.