Why engineering is good for the game

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

Sin, ill bite...to me the best comparison is golf and handicaps. Golf has a handicap system that allows anyone to compete regardless of skill level. Lets say you have a very decent high school golfer who "averages" a score of 80 or say 8 over par". Then take a pga pro who averages a score of 68 or 4 under par. If these two players were to play a round head to head... the high school player would be given 12 strokes based on the handicap to make it a fair match. .

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This is wrong and it should be highlighted.

The pro golfer would be considered a "scratch" golfer and therefore would have a zero handicap. If he averages 4 under par per 18 these are 4 free strokes that he has when competing against someone who does have a handicap. In addition the player who averages 80 isn't an 8 handicap. His handicap would most likely be 4 or 5 at worst -- you don't get 100% of your handicap and outlying bad scores are tossed out.

Therefore a fair match-up in golf including handicap would be...

Player A (Pro golfer who averages -4 per round)

versus

Player B (Highschool player with a 5 handicap)

Player B would get 5 strokes (NOT 12) on the toughest holes.

If I were a betting man I'd put my money on the pro 6 days of the week and twice on Sundays.

Edit: In addition how would it be "fair" to give the high school player 12 strokes? Let's say the high schooler has a great round and shoots a 74. The pro would then have to shoot a 62 just to tie?

Morale of the story. The pro does and should have the advantage. In golf the USGA has a fair handicap system to ensure the match isn't won before it is played. 5 strokes is what they deem fair. Arguing for 12 strokes is simply unreasonable.

Bowling handicap is also similar in that the player with the better average will when more often than a player with a lower average.

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Originally Posted by Azrial

This is wrong and it should be highlighted.

The pro golfer would be considered a "scratch" golfer and therefore would have a zero handicap. If he averages 4 under par per 18 these are 4 free strokes that he has when competing against someone who does have a handicap. In addition the player who averages 80 isn't an 8 handicap. His handicap would most likely be 4 or 5 at worst -- you don't get 100% of your handicap and outlying bad scores are tossed out.

Therefore a fair match-up in golf including handicap would be...

Player A (Pro golfer who averages -4 per round)

versus

Player B (Highschool player with a 5 handicap)

Player B would get 5 strokes (NOT 12) on the toughest holes.

If I were a betting man I'd put my money on the pro 6 days of the week and twice on Sundays.

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Dude i played golf at a high level, you are 100% wrong. You can have a negative handicap. (I was a -1.4 at one point) Handicaps are figured based on the diffuculty of the course that the score is on.
Scratch is a zero handicap, or averaging around par. End of the day you subtract handicaps to find how many strokes are given. 8 minus -4= 12 strokes in my example.

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

Dude i played golf at a high level, you are 100% wrong. You can have a negative handicap. (I was a -1.4 at one point) Handicaps are figured based on the diffuculty of the course that the score is on.
Scratch is a zero handicap, or averaging around par. End of the day you subtract handicaps to find how many strokes are given. 8 minus -4= 12 strokes in my example.

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You're correct that you can be a negative handicap. However the point still stands. Someone who averages 4 under par will have a handicap higher than -4.

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Originally Posted by Azrial

This is wrong and it should be highlighted.

The pro golfer would be considered a "scratch" golfer and therefore would have a zero handicap. If he averages 4 under par per 18 these are 4 free strokes that he has when competing against someone who does have a handicap. In addition the player who averages 80 isn't an 8 handicap. His handicap would most likely be 4 or 5 at worst -- you don't get 100% of your handicap and outlying bad scores are tossed out.

Therefore a fair match-up in golf including handicap would be...

Player A (Pro golfer who averages -4 per round)

versus

Player B (Highschool player with a 5 handicap)

Player B would get 5 strokes (NOT 12) on the toughest holes.

If I were a betting man I'd put my money on the pro 6 days of the week and twice on Sundays.

Edit: In addition how would it be "fair" to give the high school player 12 strokes? Let's say the high schooler has a great round and shoots a 74. The pro would then have to shoot a 62 just to tie?

Morale of the story. The pro does and should have the advantage. In golf the USGA has a fair handicap system to ensure the match isn't won before it is played. 5 strokes is what they deem fair. Arguing for 12 strokes is simply unreasonable.

Bowling handicap is also similar in that the player with the better average will when more often than a player with a lower average.

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Yea if the high schooler played an amazing round... 6 below his average, then yea the pro better play very well lol. Thats any competition... again...handicaps can be manipulated tho. Which why it isnt a true gauge of whos is actually better. Straight up is the only way. Do away with engineering for straight up ha!

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Originally Posted by Johnnyfsullivan

I disagree that engineering is good for the game. This post captures the relative points very well:


Billius discussion on the impact of Engineered clans and bases to the game
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...-and-Farm-Wars

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Agree.

Engineering simply a path of least resistance, within TOS, legal and can be argued interesting (if you are into learning CoC matching mechanics) but not healthy for the game. Not symbiotic but rather parasitic. It is an easy game manipulation to gain superior offensive advantage that favors a hard core (counter intuitive play) set of players.

When I say easy, I mean this:

Learning and developing the offensive attacking skill to be successful in a fair 1:1 match is tougher than just overwhelming them with superior troops and and numbers. Yes! (to all you engineering decipels out there) within TOS, but not healthy to overall game.

.....or not....all I know is there seems to be a lot of pushback on these forms by players who don't understand the games matching mechanics based on their intuitive playing of the game.

("pushback": def. [engineering lang] 1. Simple complaining without supporting documentation, or evidence-based objective support.:also know as: Whining, )

("pushback": def. [normal people] 1. A negative or unfavorable response.)

These debates are always entertaining. I think the best solution is for both sides of the debate to coexist with the introduction of tournament standard wars. A new mode of war that is completely fair play. Just like the tournament leading up to ClashCon where the TH ratio and base weights/hero levels were predetermined. This way victory is only decided by base design and attack skill. Since that is what most fair play people want, why not just introduce a new feature delivering exactly that?

People also thought zapping was good for the game. If this continues I will no longer play this game.

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

Yea if the high schooler played an amazing round... 6 below his average, then yea the pro better play very well lol. Thats any competition... again...handicaps can be manipulated tho. Which why it isnt a true gauge of whos is actually better. Straight up is the only way. Do away with engineering for straight up ha!

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My point a person with a lower handicap will win more often than not against a person with a higher handicap. The handicap gives the underdog a good chance at winning but it doesn't cover the whole spread. That's why they throw out the worst 10 rounds of the last 20 in the calculation.

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Originally Posted by 3floyds

These debates are always entertaining. I think the best solution is for both sides of the debate to coexist with the introduction of tournament standard wars. A new mode of war that is completely fair play. Just like the tournament leading up to ClashCon where the TH ratio and base weights/hero levels were predetermined. This way victory is only decided by base design and attack skill. Since that is what most fair play people want, why not just introduce a new feature delivering exactly that?

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These debates are alway tiring as neither side is likely to be swayed...

I would love to see the "maxer" or "engineer" war selection button installed immediately but I wonder if the anti-engineers realize that there would still be mismatches. On what then would they blame their losses?

For those of you paying attention, very few of the people who come here to complain about matching engineered clans actually have their tales of woe substantiated. Typical reasons - wide TH spread in war roster, rushed bases, underdeveloped heroes, actually roster engineering themselves. They also, with some notable exceptions, don't respond to requests to allow people to visit their clan and see the "mismatch"...

Come on SC, show us what you got for these evil engineers! :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by ThePiGuy

People also thought zapping was good for the game. If this continues I will no longer play this game.

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The people who thought zapping was good for the game were the same people who could only advance by TH sniping - good riddance to both...