New war system that engineers and maxers will all love!

Everyone has their war base designs page. On that page you not only can decide what defenses you put on the base, you can even lower their levels. Same for walls. And troops. When a match is sought, this all locks in and you cannot change it on war day. We can turn this whole war system into a full out engineering contest! Those who are "smarter" in how they engineer their war base will be "rewarded" and yet it won't hurt their upgrade path in multiplayer. We will all love it, right! A big huge engineering contest. How great is that! What a perfect war system. Let's make it happen.

PS: sarcasm font

Even if you were serious, which I suspect you aren't (my sarcasm detector is unreliable :smirk:), never gonna happen. Reverse-engineering of the MM algorithm would get real easy real fast. Even if it does get tweaked routinely as I believe to be the case.

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Originally Posted by posthoc

Even if you were serious, which I suspect you aren't (my sarcasm detector is unreliable :smirk:), never gonna happen. Reverse-engineering of the MM algorithm would get real easy real fast. Even if it does get tweaked routinely as I believe to be the case.

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But reverse engineering is a good thing according to engineers. The clan that can engineer the best to the most extreme should be rewarded for being so smart! Those who care about multiplayer can continue to upgrade on whatever path is best for multiplayer and not be hurt in war. My mates who are unsure about dropping a big defense can go ahead and build it and just not use it in war. It sounds awesome. (Your sarcasm detector was reliable by the way.)

Lets face it, the only way to completely stop engineering is if SC declares it being against TOS and start banning people for it (they won't). People who like to engineer/want to engineer isn't going to change their minds simply because an anti-engineer comes up with an eloquent argument as to why engineering is bad for the game. Nor are they going to care if some people on a forum call them names (cowards, cheaters, unethical, no morals etc.). The matchmaker will never be perfect and some people will always look for an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Chang405

Lets face it, the only way to completely stop engineering is if SC declares it being against TOS and start banning people for it (they won't). People who like to engineer/want to engineer isn't going to change their minds simply because an anti-engineer comes up with an eloquent argument as to why engineering is bad for the game. Nor are they going to care if some people on a forum call them names (cowards, cheaters, unethical, no morals etc.). The matchmaker will never be perfect and some people will always look for an advantage.

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That isn't the only way to stop engineering and given it would be very hard to draw the line it would be impossible to implement. If we really wanted to completely stop engineering we would just make every account way at minimum what the maximum weight is of a maxed out hall below. That would stop engineering immediately. However, it would have other negative effects and is not something I necessarily would endorse for the reasons discussed in other threads.

I do like the original idea though, 2222. Subversive in the extreme... will have both engineers and maxers hollering bloody murder... What's not to like?

Ive always liked my idea too bad most dont seem to like it. Base mm on total resources won, collected, mined, gemmed, etc. Those that engineer to attack higher will be rewarded more and come into balance. Often times they have huge amounts of gold that gets wasted since the dont upgrade their defenses. It would create balance for all except those that sit at a paticular th. I know its not perfect and its a different way of thinking but it would create a balance to bot maxers, rushers, and engineers.

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Originally Posted by posthoc

I do like the original idea though, 2222. Subversive in the extreme... will have both engineers and maxers hollering bloody murder... What's not to like?

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Haha, no engineers could complain, it would ruin their argument that it is good to have a war system that puts a lot of emphasis on who engineers their accounts the best.

I have a proposal for a new system. I say SC create a secondary matching system which compares bases on a lane by lane basis. Clans have an option of choosing this new system and people who want perfect matches 100% of the time will get them. The searches may take hours or days but at least the matches will be "perfect". Clans that want quick searches and are satisfied with the current system will use the current system by default.

Lol ha ha ha, Id have to say the base concept is better than the way war works at the moment.

I personally think if TH11's are going to be permitted to match against TH6's etc then there should be no cap on your troop upgrade level at each TH. we have TH11 etc matching against lesser TH levels why not permit those lower TH levels to also research up to max troops. that would level the playing field massively.

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Originally Posted by Altare

Lol ha ha ha, Id have to say the base concept is better than the way war works at the moment.

I personally think if TH11's are going to be permitted to match against TH6's etc then there should be no cap on your troop upgrade level at each TH. we have TH11 etc matching against lesser TH levels why not permit those lower TH levels to also research up to max troops. that would level the playing field massively.

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That's how it looks,, but now how it actually is. That TH11 matched with a th6 is only paired on defense. His offense is paired with somebody higher up the map. The map is arranged according to defense weights only. Not a single thing to do with offense. So you can already improve your opinion making on war matches by realizing that its not about your "mirrior village". It's about the entire line up.

Currently I think that:

A. Everybody gets a standard issue war village based on your current th lvl. It comes with all maxed troops for your th level. you are free to arrange the village as you want. (War is pure skill)

B. Increase instructional videos on how to attack properly so that everybody can 3 star a base on their level. (no more weak defense bases.

C. Impose penalties for having maxed troops without corresponding defenses. (if you have max bowlers or warden for example, but no eagle, the eagle weight is added to your village anyways.) This would hamper roster engineering.

D. Village engineering (by itself) has been addressed. Everything you take to war has weight that goes towards you total clan weight.

E. Each village is randomly grouped with other villages from other clans to form perfect matches. No more clan clan wars. Just blue team vs red team and your clan gets xp for the bases your players attack in their individual wars.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

A. Everybody gets a standard issue war village based on your current th lvl. It comes with all maxed troops for your th level. you are free to arrange the village as you want. (War is pure skill)

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I've thought about this approach many times over the last few months. Have the MM pair you on your TH level, then give every war participant a maxed offensive and defensive base at their level.

This does leave one small problem, though. There is no built in excuse for losing anymore. ;)

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Originally Posted by cnaf

I've thought about this approach many times over the last few months. Have the MM pair you on your TH level, then give every war participant a maxed offensive and defensive base at their level.

This does leave one small problem, though. There is no built in excuse for losing anymore. ;)

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Yeah, they do it in clash royale tournaments (well they limit the card levels you can use in a tournament) but if they can manipulate things like that, why not pass out maxed war villages for purposes of warring only.

One downside is that with option A, soon everybody would separate into Elite clans and everybody else clans. People can still come here and complain about being mismatched with a clan of elite attackers compared to their average attackers, and that the elite attacker clan is cowardly, dis honorable, or "player engineering" haha.

Responses in bold -

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

That's how it looks,, but now how it actually is. That TH11 matched with a th6 is only paired on defense. His offense is paired with somebody higher up the map. The map is arranged according to defense weights only. Not a single thing to do with offense. So you can already improve your opinion making on war matches by realizing that its not about your "mirrior village". It's about the entire line up.
Very true, however I'm not sure how roster engineering seems to work if clans are matched base by base.

Currently I think that:

A. Everybody gets a standard issue war village based on your current th lvl. It comes with all maxed troops for your th level. you are free to arrange the village as you want. (War is pure skill)
No more farming, no more choices on progression. What do you want to name this game? Don't call it Clash of Clans, that name's taken by a totally different game.

B. Increase instructional videos on how to attack properly so that everybody can 3 star a base on their level. (no more weak defense bases.
Youtube is that way -------->. Can't force people to watch it though.

C. Impose penalties for having maxed troops without corresponding defenses. (if you have max bowlers or warden for example, but no eagle, the eagle weight is added to your village anyways.) This would hamper roster engineering.
To a large extent, this was done in October. Not sure about roster engineering, seems to be a problem though I've never come across it.


E. Each village is randomly grouped with other villages from other clans to form perfect matches. No more clan clan wars. Just blue team vs red team and your clan gets xp for the bases your players attack in their individual wars.
Now we remove the clans from clash of clans? No way to improve as a group, kick nonattackers/looters? If they added this feature, I'd never use it but hey have fun. If they take away clan wars in order to do it, game's over.

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I wasn't necessarily saying I support those options. I was only trying to illustrate what would have to be done to address the current issues people have with clan wars. I would like to clarify that the standard issue village is only for war purposes. You would still have your normal base for trophy pushing.

For the record, I don't have any issues with the MM or clan wars currently. I am not in a high win streak clan (28 wins is the max). I think that it's 100% fair outside of the occasional clan with a good engineered line up. I only see them every now and then.

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Edited after being quoted by tanksinatra for clarification purposes.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

I wasn't necessarily saying I support those options. I was only trying to illustrate what would have to be done to make things fair. I would like to clarify that the standard issue village is only for war purposes.

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Under this system I'd research only goblins, farm in bursts to upgrade th, war with max troops/defenses. Don't think SC wants me doing that.
But I see what you mean. I think MM is pretty fair at this point too, subject to the constraints of the game. There's no major upgrade in fairness possible without absolutely gutting some key game mechanics, basically make it a new game.

I like the freedom being able to determine strategically how to proportion your clan weight / structure your clan to account for occasional "outmaxed" mismatches or to accommodate for weaker players in your line up.

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Originally Posted by Chang405

Lets face it, the only way to completely stop engineering is if SC declares it being against TOS and start banning people for it (they won't). People who like to engineer/want to engineer isn't going to change their minds simply because an anti-engineer comes up with an eloquent argument as to why engineering is bad for the game. Nor are they going to care if some people on a forum call them names (cowards, cheaters, unethical, no morals etc.). The matchmaker will never be perfect and some people will always look for an advantage.

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It not cheating. Its just a way people learned to get the advantage of the MM in their favor. This engineering phenomenon is like the Th snipe/shield of the past. People have learned to take advantage of the system like they did with TH sniping. I am very curious why SC does not do much about it. If anything having people upgrade their main and mini accounts defences will be tons of more money for SC if they did change the MM system to favour troop and hero lvls more than defences.

Here's a more simple solution -- just add the ability to sell items from your base (sorry you lose them on you loot protection base also). Then nobody can complain that they were out engineered.

To make it so it couldn't be exploited you can't add anything to your war base once a match is made (to prevent selling inferno prematch, then building on prep day).

Good suggestion, I will add that to my list of game changing changes to address all the current perceived issues with the MM next time.

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Originally Posted by Azrial

Here's a more simple solution -- just add the ability to sell items from your base (sorry you lose them on you loot protection base also). Then nobody can complain that they were out engineered.

To make it so it couldn't be exploited you can't add anything to your war base once a match is made (to prevent selling inferno prematch, then building on prep day).

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Those who don't want to be forced to choose between what is good for war and what is good for multiplayer would still complain. My suggestion to start this thread off, would be better because it avoids that problem, even though I was joking when I made the suggestion.

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Originally Posted by 2222

Those who don't want to be forced to CHOOSE between what is good for war and what is good for multiplayer would still complain. My suggestion to start this thread off, would be better because it avoids that problem, even though I was joking when I made the suggestion.

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That was exactly my point. Most anti-engineers want to have their cake and eat it to. Therefore they would complain.

I'm not sure if you play Boom Beach but there are these things called statues. Everyone would love to run 10 defensive statues when they are offline but then when they are attacking they'd love to have 10 offensive statues. However, Boom Beach makes you CHOOSE, one can't have the best of both worlds. To me choices in a game are a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Azrial

That was exactly my point. Most anti-engineers want to have their cake and eat it to. Therefore they would complain.

I'm not sure if you play Boom Beach but there are these things called statues. Everyone would love to run 10 defensive statues when they are offline but then when they are attacking they'd love to have 10 offensive statues. However, Boom Beach makes you CHOOSE, one can't have the best of both worlds. To me choices in a game are a good thing.

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That you prefer to have a system where players must choose between making an account that is good for war or good for trophy pushing is a reasonable opinion. It just isn't one I agree with. I would like the system to be set so that, as much as possible, the same things upgraded/built help both aspect of this game equally. I realize there will never be a perfect match, but I support SC continuing to try to even it out. It seems they have improved (in my opinion) it lately.

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Originally Posted by Azrial

That was exactly my point. Most anti-engineers want to have their cake and eat it to. Therefore they would complain.

I'm not sure if you play Boom Beach but there are these things called statues. Everyone would love to run 10 defensive statues when they are offline but then when they are attacking they'd love to have 10 offensive statues. However, Boom Beach makes you CHOOSE, one can't have the best of both worlds. To me choices in a game are a good thing.

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We dont want our cake and it it too. We just want fair wars. Engineers love calling the kettle black.

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

We dont want our cake and it it too. We just want fair wars. Engineers love calling the kettle black.

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Maybe.

Most likely not. As long as clans lose, they will search for reasons and then will try to change it to their favour.

Don't even try to deny this.

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

We dont want our cake and it it too. We just want fair wars. Engineers love calling the kettle black.

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Do you really want fair wars? Or do you just want wars that look fair on paper, where clans are matched lane for lane but, skill wise, you would smash them 100/100 wars.

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Originally Posted by Chang405

Do you really want fair wars? Or do you just want wars that look fair on paper, where clans are matched lane for lane but, skill wise, you would smash them 100/100 wars.

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Why not? They dont hand us 3 stars... we earn them. Have you ever seen someone yelling on the forums "this is Bogus man... we have exactly the same number of town halls on each level, their heroes are 2 notches higher than ours"?... no. Its a problem when there are 3 extra th11's though.

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

Why not? They dont hand us 3 stars... we earn them. Have you ever seen someone yelling on the forums "this is Bogus man... we have exactly the same number of town halls on each level, their heroes are 2 notches higher than ours"?... no. Its a problem when there are 3 extra th11's though.

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Maxers want fair wars that fair in paper for them yet in reality they are happy either facing noob clans lol

As I said earlier I think having the flexibility to proportion your weight inside your overall clan weight total is great. It allows you to customize your clan for its strengths and weaknesses.

The down side (which is what is causing all the issues currently) is not village engineering by itself BUT roster engineering as a whole. It's hard to do right, but when it is done right, it can present a clan with an unwinnable war or at least a match destined for a draw. They have to somehow weight Grand Wardens and maxed th11 troops differently. The power of those troops combined with the grand warden is too much especially with how easy it is to 3 star a th10 with them in the hands of a above average attacker. I think that the troops by themselves are still an advantage but not near as much without the grand warden behind them.

I think the grand warden should have a huge weight (at least at lvl 5+). Since there is no th12 yet, there is no danger of pulling in something higher. th11 would be largely unchanged as the weight would be proportional across the board. This would potentially give a clan that has 1 grand warden paired with a clan that has 7 much more weight to play around with. They would be allowed to bring more defenses which would reduce the advantage of roster engineering by making their bases more difficult throughout the map. Now instead of the opposing clan have 6 solid attempts at your #1, maybe they only get two because they had to use 4 to cover lower bases.

Once th12 comes out they can revisit the grad wardens weight.

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Originally Posted by cnaf

I've thought about this approach many times over the last few months. Have the MM pair you on your TH level, then give every war participant a maxed offensive and defensive base at their level.

This does leave one small problem, though. There is no built in excuse for losing anymore. ;)

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Don't bet on it. There's always an excuse for losing. Current bogeyman is engineering. It would be all of 8-9 seconds for a new one to pop up.

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Originally Posted by Chang405

Lets face it, the only way to completely stop engineering is if SC declares it being against TOS and start banning people for it (they won't).

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Disagree with that. They made some good steps towards nerfing .5, but just need to go a little further in terms of nerfing .5 and rewarding balanced base designs in MM.

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Originally Posted by gw2kpro

Don't bet on it. There's always an excuse for losing. Current bogeyman is engineering. It would be all of 8-9 seconds for a new one to pop up.

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Exactly. Once engineering is removed, the "nerf this troop" thread will start to rain down upon us. Its just how the forums work.

Why are you so worried about .5's? Stopping defenseless th11's with max offense would be on the top of my list. .5's were never really an issue in my opinion. It was the minimax and defenseless villages that caused all the outrage.