SC - Please Break Your Silence On Engineered Bases

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Originally Posted by RichardF

We are in the same boat at the top. 9.5 matching 10 with infernos. The MM changes have definitely changed the 9.5 and 8.5 equation for us. I was waiting to drop XBows till my heroes were 25/25 but it is clear since the change we are seeing less X.5 bases in our opponents rosters. I am putting mine up to TH9 max currently. Looking at our 9.5 dropping IT, I suspect they are advanced enough that it would pull TH11 targets(s) at the top. If the middle of the field was balanced it might not be a problem, but the advantage TH11 has over 10 with max troops is pretty big.

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This is pretty much what we see. If you look at the top half of the war map, we generally are slightly ahead overall in heroes/offense- and at a massive disadvantage defensively. 2-6, 2-8 in eagles, less infernos, always about a 100K difference in overall defense weight in the top 10. Most clans don't have well developed heroes (relative to their TH level) at the mid to bottom portion of their map- so this is where we gain an advantage as well. As if that matters. When you have equal hero levels on both sides up top, yet a decided disadvantage on defense, who cares about a few less hero levels per base. It's doesn't play a factor in the match.

I'm sick and tired of seeing maxed TH11s and/or maxed TH10s opposite 9.5's. Opposing clans that only need to bowler/healer spam an attack for easy doubles, while we have to figure out a way to out star their eagles and 109k weighted bases. Yesterday was the last straw for me. 2-7 disadvantage in eagles, less warden attacks and less overall warden levels.

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Originally Posted by RichardF

Our most recent loss was to a clan with 2 MinMax 11 accounts in the lower 2/3 of their roster, and 3 mid field TH10 with max troops and TH6-7 defenses. They had 3 TH10 with infernos at the top and very solid bases, we cleared all but the top 2. Unfortunately, their TH11 troop advantage won the war. Our top 3 bases are very advanced 9.5 so it is easy to see how we pulled the inferno towers.

We are in the same boat at the top. 9.5 matching 10 with infernos. The MM changes have definitely changed the 9.5 and 8.5 equation for us. I was waiting to drop XBows till my heroes were 25/25 but it is clear since the change we are seeing less X.5 bases in our opponents rosters. I am putting mine up to TH9 max currently. Looking at our 9.5 dropping IT, I suspect they are advanced enough that it would pull TH11 targets(s) at the top. If the middle of the field was balanced it might not be a problem, but the advantage TH11 has over 10 with max troops is pretty big.

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Obviously take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, as it will highly depend on the makeup of your individual clan and the number of TH9.5s you have dropping infernos all at once, but I dropped my infernos near the end of TH10 one week after the October update (did it with the TH10 inferno pack to speed the process) as at time posters like cnaf and OnyxDS were already hypothesizing that x.5s got the nerfbat.

In any event, I only pulled TH11s in war twice between October and now and both were very rushed and I beat them more easily than they beat me (my clan only wars twice a week mind you, so ymmv). The rest of the time I just got maxed out or near-maxed out TH10s opposed to me on the top of the war map. Overall I think you're safe to drop infernos on your 9.5 accounts without too much fear of seeing decent 11s across from you on the regular :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by cnaf

This is pretty much what we see. If you look at the top half of the war map, we generally are slightly ahead overall in heroes/offense- and at a massive disadvantage defensively. 2-6, 2-8 in eagles, less infernos, always about a 100K difference in overall defense weight in the top 10. Most clans don't have well developed heroes (relative to their TH level) at the mid to bottom portion of their map- so this is where we gain an advantage as well. As if that matters. When you have equal hero levels on both sides up top, yet a decided disadvantage on defense, who cares about a few less hero levels per base. It's doesn't play a factor in the match.

I'm sick and tired of seeing maxed TH11s and/or maxed TH10s opposite 9.5's. Opposing clans that only need to bowler/healer spam an attack for easy doubles, while we have to figure out a way to out star their eagles and 109k weighted bases. Yesterday was the last straw for me. 2-7 disadvantage in eagles, less warden attacks and less overall warden levels.

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I'm not entirely sure what your current clan makeup consists of but I've seen you mention facing an eagle disadvantage quite often. I'd be kinda shocked if you're seeing maxed TH11s across from TH9.5 accounts, but seeing maxed TH10s across from them I would imagine is commonplace at this point. Are you TH9.5s really pulling TH11s? Or are those cause of the 10.5s?

Yep, we had a 8 win streak going, just got matched to an engineered clan with a 17 streak going. Looking at the line up, I doubt we will win. Will give it our best go tho.

It's safe to say that an even match up means that both clans are evenly tasked and balanced. Sc obviously needs to work on what they consider to be balanced.

Fact is, that sandbaggers do what they do to get an advantage. Thus, by sandbagging the mm system they're specifically looking for an uneven match up.

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

Obviously take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, as it will highly depend on the makeup of your individual clan and the number of TH9.5s you have dropping infernos all at once, but I dropped my infernos near the end of TH10 one week after the October update (did it with the TH10 inferno pack to speed the process) as at time posters like cnaf and OnyxDS were already hypothesizing that x.5s got the nerfbat.

In any event, I only pulled TH11s in war twice between October and now and both were very rushed and I beat them more easily than they beat me (my clan only wars twice a week mind you, so ymmv). The rest of the time I just got maxed out or near-maxed out TH10s opposed to me on the top of the war map. Overall I think you're safe to drop infernos on your 9.5 accounts without too much fear of seeing decent 11s across from you on the regular :thumbsup:

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Thanks for the thoughtful reply. We are looking at it to be certain. As I took the plunge a while ago on my main I can't relate as well to the ambivalence some of our 9.5 must be feeling right now. It's a big commitment and there is no going back. The choice to drop the XBows on my 9 was far easier and the logical next step. For our 9.5s looking at the infernos it might be harder to see the way forward, but inasmuch as they are already attacking and often 3 starring TH10 bases with infernos it hopefully won't seem like such a big step. Overall I am pleased with the changes to war MM and I hope for continued fine tuning of the algorythm.

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Originally Posted by RichardF

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. We are looking at it to be certain. As I took the plunge a while ago on my main I can't relate as well to the ambivalence some of our 9.5 must be feeling right now. It's a big commitment and there is no going back. The choice to drop the XBows on my 9 was far easier and the logical next step. For our 9.5s looking at the infernos it might be harder to see the way forward, but inasmuch as they are already attacking and often 3 starring TH10 bases with infernos it hopefully won't seem like such a big step. Overall I am pleased with the changes to war MM and I hope for continued fine tuning of the algorythm.

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I had no qualms about dropping my infernos when I did so. First, I had always WANTED to drop them but matchmaking was so horrendous March through October that it would have been stupid to do so. I simply stayed a TH9.5 with ~40/40 heroes and roflstomped TH9s for easy clan war wins. But immediately after October both cnaf and Onyx started musing about THx.5 nerfs, and I trust both those guys enough to say without hesitation at that point that if the crutch was gone, may as well graduate to a big boy account and drop the discos.

Note, if you still have the TH10 gem pack available, and you're not opposed to dropping $20 (or whatever your local currency equivalent is), make sure to buy the pack on prep day. Comes with a nice lvl2 inferno and enough gold to drop the 2nd one. Match without infernos, go to war with both of em (one last "hurrah" if you will :D). I felt a little bad for the other guys, but one can only pull this trick once now, so it didn't feel TOO bad..

Had a bunch of ours opt out for next war so I took our highest 3 (11's) and lowest 7 (4-8, 2-7, 1-6) and gave it a whirl. It's the first time we have pulled a so-called engineered clan. Those complaining must be trying this hard all the time to create an imbalance so I say they get their just desserts.

Still think we are gonna beat these guys too.

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

I'm not entirely sure what your current clan makeup consists of but I've seen you mention facing an eagle disadvantage quite often. I'd be kinda shocked if you're seeing maxed TH11s across from TH9.5 accounts, but seeing maxed TH10s across from them I would imagine is commonplace at this point. Are you TH9.5s really pulling TH11s? Or are those cause of the 10.5s?

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As a clan, we are waaay to Hero heavy for the latest MM tweak. My 9.5 will sit at 9-11 on the war map. My defensive weight is tied for highest of our 9.5's, so there could be 2-4 inferno 10s above me, depending on who opts in. So we generally take 6 or 7 TH11s, some TH10s, then me... on down. If I'm in the 9 slot- it's a lock a 102K, 103K defensive weighted TH11 is opposite of me. If I'm in the 10-11 slot- I draw the completely maxed TH10.

Typical defense weights at the top will look like this for any given matchup:

108k 109k
107k 109k
106k 106k
92k 106k
92k 105k
90k 105k
90k 105k
86k 103k
74K 103k
74K 85K

Hero, offense in the top 5 is always the same for both sides. 40/45/20. Sometimes the other clan is doing roster engineering to achieve this pair, sometimes they have really weak heroes below the top 7 or 8. So overall we would see a 25-30% advantage in overall hero levels. It's our fault for having TH9s that run with 25/25 heroes, TH10s and TH11s that are all 40/40, or real close to that.

Every third match or so will be slightly better, where the enemy only has 5 TH11s, then tail off with 10s and so forth. As I said, last night was the last straw for me. 2-7 eagle difference, and a GW attack disadvantage. On prep day atm, and come war day- the defensive weights will be larger than the example I posted above.

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Originally Posted by KingAroth

So you win so much it is boring? Thank you for supporting my theory that there is no unfair advantage with an engineered base. As for my game play I get those bases at the top without my defenseless accounts. Eventually those lower accounts will have the same offenses as my higher accounts and I will have more attacks on your top. Still supporting my theory you said it will not help against my anchor on the top so that means that my statement is true you got to still get 3 stars engineered or not to win.

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Nope, I said beating engineering clans are boring. Stop putting words in my mouth.

As far as beating my top base, you just took the engineering road. Talks about no advantage but goes on to say I'll make my defenseless stronger to have some extra attacks on the top. Isn't that an advantage? Can't beat it so beef up the defenseless so you get extra attacks on it while I get one shot at your top base? And people wonder why engineering is hated. Can't fight your equal alone so you depend on extra attacks or possible dip attack to win the war while I have to perform perfectly. Gimmie a break.

I strongly beg to disagree..war is far from fair still!