Why matchmaking needs a fix sooner rather than later

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

I'm not suggesting TH3 junk on the bottom needs to be penalised though - just take a realistic account of how much difference it makes to the war. Which is none at all. Those bottom bases would still be considered when checking mirrors to see if the clans are similar, so would count as some dissimilarity. But the bottom should be ignored completely when checking the overall clan total. So there wouldn't be a tendency to stick a TH11 on top for the bottom-stacked clan to 'balance up'.
If we're TH10-8 and we included a TH3 to make up the numbers I'd expect them to match to a TH8 and be happy with it. That's my choice in sticking in a junk base.


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Are you suggesting that whatever bases at the bottom fall far enough below the weight of the base at the top are not counted in the matchmaking and neither are the equal number of bases at the bottom of the other clan, no matter their weight? That is an interesting suggestion that would really hurt those who want to throw low weight bases at the bottom. It could also hurt those with legitimate low weight bases at the bottom, but not if they aren't warring with a big th10-11 base at the top.

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Originally Posted by 2222

Are you suggesting that whatever bases at the bottom fall far enough below the weight of the base at the top are not counted in the matchmaking and neither are the equal number of bases at the bottom of the other clan, no matter their weight? That is an interesting suggestion that would really hurt those who want to throw low weight bases at the bottom. It could also hurt those with legitimate low weight bases at the bottom, but not if they aren't warring with a big th10-11 base at the top.

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Hmm, no and yes. The MM has several different checks - it compares all the bases vs mirrors, it compares the overall clan totals, it compares win records, etc. Apart from the first, many of these were added last March. We don't really know how all the checks are combined - whether a match has to tick every box, or whether the differences in each aspect are added to give an overall clan similarity score. But whatever the details, what has seemed to happen since March, and especially since October is the comparison of the overall totals is very significant. And in reality this tends to give an advantage - sometimes enough to make the war unwinnable - to the clan with a wider spread of bases or junk on the bottom.

Personally I'd just remove the check of overall totals completely (even though this allows maxer engineering, and they are irritatingly smug as they claim not to engineer). But failing that, I'd exclude the bottom of the roster from the calculation of overall clan totals only. So both entire rosters are checked mirror against mirror to see how similar they are. So if clan A is TH10-8 and clan B has 5 TH3s at the bottom then that's a significant discrepancy, and it probably won't match unless the search has been running a while.

But those TH3s should be ignored from the check of totals. Currently the MM seems to think that if clan C has 2 TH11s up top as well as 5 TH3s down low that improves the situation, because the totals are closer. Since that check is closer clan C is more likely to match A than B is. But in reality clan C can probably clean up those low bases (I'm thinking in 30v wars here), and will smack clan A around at the top, winning the war.

Yes, it sort of punishes a clan who stick in low fillers. But remember, the mirror check is trying to find an identical clan if possible - it is trying to match the low bases. The point is that when there is no perfect match, the clan with fillers shouldn't be given compensation elsewhere. So they aren't explicitly punished - but if the low fillers quite predictably can't match perfectly then you just get the closest possible at the low end - without a gain at the top.

In reality if someone sticks 1 or 2 low fillers to make up the numbers in a reasonable size mixed TH war it's not going to make any difference what they match. And if someone sticks 14 junk bases in a 30v - then tough that's their problem. To me including a junk base is like including someone who opted out - you expect nothing from them. If you think you can carry the loss there, then you go with it; if not, then you war smaller.

I would think it has to do with your clan composition. We aren't having problems with matchmaking as a th9-th7 clan (occasionally a mini or a th10 joins in).

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

On the other hand, clans that follow a few simple guidelines rarely see engineered clans on the opposite side. Don't bring more than a three TH range, don't bring anything under th8, don't bring lopsided bases yourself (long term .5s, defenseless, etc).

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We did all of this, yet still are in the match that the OP mentioned. So just accept it and move on because it can't be fixed / addressed? The MM can't be improved? Surely it can.

I have noticed that the last update, the difference in lower base weights seems to not matter as much as at the top. Onyx I think has a point. As far as I can tell the bases are usually really close in weight. The bottom however is not checked so much.

PRE UPDATE: Base Weights

#10-9m------45
#10-08------54

#11-9m------43
#11-08------46

#12-07------35
#12-08------45

#13-8m------33
#13-08------45

#14-9m------25
#14-07------38

#15-8m------24
#15-07------31



#15-9m------43
#15-08------44

#16-07------36
#16-08------42

#17-8m------33
#17-07------36

#18-9m------25
#18-06------27

#19-8m------24
#19-06------24

#20-7m------13
#20-06------25

POST UPDATE: Base Weights

#20-9m------44
#20-08------48

#21-8m------33
#21-08------47

#22-8m------27
#22-08------44

#23-9m------26
#23-08------44

#24-8m------18
#24-07------39

#25-04------07
#25-07------37



#20-9m------44
#20-08------50

#21-8m------44
#21-08------50

#22-8m------27
#22-08------45

#23-9m------26
#23-07------40

#24-8m------19
#24-8M------42

#25-04-------7
#25-07------35

And, the tops of those matches were even defense weight wise if not slightly more for the other clan. They always have a few more infernos and xbows then us. I don't think our offense was worth that much difference in war weight compared to the other clans. The bottom seems a little less important currently.

I think one war I documented, the other clan has an entire extra maxed th9 base worth of extra defenses. overall.

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Originally Posted by Millerman78

We did all of this, yet still are in the match that the OP mentioned. So just accept it and move on because it can't be fixed / addressed? The MM can't be improved? Surely it can.

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News for for you: the MM will never ever be perfect to the liking of some complainers here. This whole engineering is still up to the debate because losing clans can no longer blame the modders anymore. And since blaming their lack of skill is out of the question, the most logical culprit is the match maker.

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

Hmm, no and yes. The MM has several different checks - it compares all the bases vs mirrors, it compares the overall clan totals, it compares win records, etc. Apart from the first, many of these were added last March. We don't really know how all the checks are combined - whether a match has to tick every box, or whether the differences in each aspect are added to give an overall clan similarity score. But whatever the details, what has seemed to happen since March, and especially since October is the comparison of the overall totals is very significant. And in reality this tends to give an advantage - sometimes enough to make the war unwinnable - to the clan with a wider spread of bases or junk on the bottom.

Personally I'd just remove the check of overall totals completely (even though this allows maxer engineering, and they are irritatingly smug as they claim not to engineer). But failing that, I'd exclude the bottom of the roster from the calculation of overall clan totals only. So both entire rosters are checked mirror against mirror to see how similar they are. So if clan A is TH10-8 and clan B has 5 TH3s at the bottom then that's a significant discrepancy, and it probably won't match unless the search has been running a while.

But those TH3s should be ignored from the check of totals. Currently the MM seems to think that if clan C has 2 TH11s up top as well as 5 TH3s down low that improves the situation, because the totals are closer. Since that check is closer clan C is more likely to match A than B is. But in reality clan C can probably clean up those low bases (I'm thinking in 30v wars here), and will smack clan A around at the top, winning the war.

Yes, it sort of punishes a clan who stick in low fillers. But remember, the mirror check is trying to find an identical clan if possible - it is trying to match the low bases. The point is that when there is no perfect match, the clan with fillers shouldn't be given compensation elsewhere. So they aren't explicitly punished - but if the low fillers quite predictably can't match perfectly then you just get the closest possible at the low end - without a gain at the top.

In reality if someone sticks 1 or 2 low fillers to make up the numbers in a reasonable size mixed TH war it's not going to make any difference what they match. And if someone sticks 14 junk bases in a 30v - then tough that's their problem. To me including a junk base is like including someone who opted out - you expect nothing from them. If you think you can carry the loss there, then you go with it; if not, then you war smaller.

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Good suggestions in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

A 'minimum war weight' for your TH level, which has no offensive or defensive strength, won't work.

A day old TH9 is a completely different base to a max TH9 with 30/30 Heroes and all lava walls.
By adding a weight to the Town Hall, all you are doing is encouraging MAXING, and alienating a huge proportion of players.

Roster engineering, as you describe is a slightly different issue, and you have my sympathy here.
This has been a big issue, although there are suggestions that the December update tweaked the effectiveness of such, AND promoted greater top end roster matching.

I'll ask a moderator to move this thread to the Clan Wars subforum, and hopefully you will get some more detailed responses.

The reality is, you shouldn't have to manage your own roster to get fair matches, I agree with your sentiment, but at the moment, it seems the best strategy to avoid bad matches.
Best wishes!:)

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why wouldnt it work if the th weight was equal to a max town hall 1 lvl down.

Ex. A defenseless th11 would would carry a def war weight of a max th10.

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Originally Posted by smokenbooze1

why wouldnt it work if the th weight was equal to a max town hall 1 lvl down.

Ex. A defenseless th11 would would carry a def war weight of a max th10.

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The main argument I hear against that is that it would be very bad for the casual player that rushed their base. Personally, I think those that rushed their base already are at such a disadvantage that it wouldn't be that much different. Perhaps the minimum should be 1.5 halls down rather than 1 hall down. We just faced a team with clearly casual players with rushed accounts (infernos with royals in the teens, etc.) and they had zero chance to win. The only way they can win wars is if they face other similarly rushed clans. Changing the matchmaking wouldn't make much difference to them. They still would be in a situation where they only have a chance to win against other similarly rushed clans. Onyx has a good idea above that would help I think. Also, I do think match making has improved a lot since October.

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Originally Posted by Millerman78

We did all of this, yet still are in the match that the OP mentioned. So just accept it and move on because it can't be fixed / addressed? The MM can't be improved? Surely it can.

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Looking at your clan I see several .5s. The lv 20 warden without an eagle jumps out for example, but I see 3 and I only looked at half the roster. I see a huge th range, there's a defenseless at the bottom too. So if I come check what you brought to war, will I see any of these in the war? Because when you say "we did all this", I'm wondering if in fact you did ANY of it. I don't judge you at all if you did, everyone can play as they like. I just don't want misinformation here about how to get fair matches, the advice above is pretty solid.

Can MM be improved? Perhaps. If so, perhaps SC will do it (or maybe they'll screw it up, or maybe they'll keep it as is because they think it will net more gems). But nothing will be decided here, this is a user forum. We should talk about what WE can do here. If you want to send a message to SC, try Western Union.