Possible solution to engineered bases

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Originally Posted by Tomville

Yes, that is what he is saying, he thinks your weight should be considered max as your offence is max. It's an odd kind of rushing to have somehow only gotten all the offence, but be missing basic defence items at even level 1 from the previous th level, just saying... looks more like a plan to max offence for war advantage than the usual kind of thing people call "rushing" which is often less focused. And I don't think the OP is saying everyone must play a certain way, but rather that he/she is unhappy with a certain disproportionate advantage that lopsided offence heavy bases presently provide in war matchmaking.

You are wrong on the second two points. On the system the OP suggests any base with balanced development of offence and defence will do well, even one fresh to the th level, and the more disorganised type of rushers would have the same kinds of issues they presently have (which is typically being an odd mix of both defensively and offensively weak vs the useful possible war targets for them in the team lineup).

The OP's proposal doesn't favour maxers, just balance. That's a point in its favor as a suggestion. It's also a potential flaw, given how many th levels have more days of research time than build time for the player with 5 builders... resulting in a tendency for rather many normal casual players just doing their thing to naturally end up a little lopsided, but in terms of the strength of their defence rather than offence-heavy.

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I always will focus on offense because if u are active enough defense dosent matter that much.
About dont have xbow, why would i put a new defense if i didnt have maxed all others? Sc put soo much weitgh in new defenses that isnt good to build a new one before maxing all others.
And u said yourself, lab and builders always will have differents times soo the only time defense is equal to offense is when u maxed a th...
Everithing different of this will be a disadvantageous...

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Originally Posted by 2222

Part of my replay was in response to you comments about people wanting to play the game on easy mode, how you find it funny, etc. I took that as you insulting engineers

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Originally Posted by Bulldog241

Oh good, then you understood the point of that correctly. :)

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Sun Tzu once said “Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” .

Strategies come in all shapes and sizes. As long as SuperCell hasn't closed the door on it, there are going to be people that use anything to give themselves an edge. It's the way it's always been with war in real life, so it's not surprising that ideology gets in here.

It doesn't matter if you think it's fair, or unfair. There's nothing you can do about it right now, as thousands of other people have brought it up for ages. For the time being, the ball is in SuperCell's court. However, insulting a large player base, that has simply had to adapt to change, is damaging to this game. You make engineers angry at maxers, and maxers angry against engineers. It's a vicious cycle that damages the social aspect, and will drive players away from the game, causing SuperCell to lose ratings, and then revenue, and that could eventually effect you in a negative way.

Discuss it by all means, but be a gentleman, (or lady) in doing so. The community has been the best part of the game, and attitudes like yours damage that. Let's just all grow up a little here. Insulting isn't going to help anyone here.

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Originally Posted by Bulldog241

I edited my first post to add this: If your only objection is "but I like engineered bases" or "engineering is justifiable", please understand that I consider your "objections" just further support for this idea. Engineered bases is you saying to the world "I'm not good enough to attack an equal base, so this is a way to game the system so I can play on easy mode". I find it hilarious actually.

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I noticed OP has been banned already. Still feel the need to respond as I am reading this type of comment more frequently recently.
I started a defenseless for fun. Did not even war with it for a long time. Just was curious how it would be.
Found a casual clan with lots of kids and old timers and started warring there. Mostly th7 to th9 in the wars plus some fillers. I am like nr 8 in a 15 roster and attack nrs 1 and 2 for 6 stars typically. So not really doing for an easy attack on my mirror and I don't think many engineers act that way.
Still having fun with that base.

Having said that, my base does give us a significant advantage which is why eventually extreme engineering has to be fixed imo.

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Originally Posted by TheSeachicken

Engineering is insipid, and it has created a race to the bottom. It is ruining (has ruined) wars. The people who played the game early on, and played clan wars honestly in its infancy, who built defense with offense are those suffering the most.

You say, "there's nothing wrong with engineering." Maybe on an individual level no. At the team/war level, yes, it absolutely is a problem with mean matchmaking algorithms that completely ignore fundamental mechanics and the importance of the top.

What should games be about? Rigging the matchup? Stacking your clan with multiple engineered accounts so you can walk over opponents utilizing no skill at all? Or should it be about skill? Skill at building a sound defense? Or gaming an algorithm? Skilled raiding? Or just smashing bases 2 levels below your own for easy perfect wars?

When it is no longer about skill, but about clan composition, the point of calling it a game is lost. When one team can easily achieve a perfect war, while the other stands no chance of doing so, what is the point?

The game doesn't favor individual skills improvement. It only favors stacking the deck.

My clan at one point was about 220-10. We did it the right way, and played the game the right way. And for six months we've watched our record steadily fall not due to clans of superior skill, but simply because so many matchups are impossible to win, and we are CONSTANTLY outmatched by wide margins at the top. It's probably been 25 wars where we had a fair top, let alone an advantage.

It's sad, because if you have a clan higher than level 10, if you want to win half your wars you have no choice but to engineer, too. It's a joke. It's trashing the game. And no gamer with a shred of integrity or sense of principle would ever accept this as it stands. It doesn't help that the algorithm punishes success with clan level and win streaks.

For the high level clans, it is simply no longer about which clan has the best raiders. It's about which clan happened to stack the deck most in their favor. And I'm sorry, but it's wrong. Especially to the people who are paying money for it. And especially when there are easy computational fixes to it.

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Good post, i also mentioned how engineering has become a race to the bottom a few months ago but it got 0 traction. Eventually we will reach a point when it becomes rare to see the best defenses in the game if thing dont change, alot are adapting and a race to the bottom it is.

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Originally Posted by MJPB

Far too many people with blinders on. They only know one way to play.

People need to learn how to adapt to changes in the game. The offensive and defensive meta changes often. People need to learn to accept change and to adapt. Changing war matchmaking will simply make people adapt and come up with another solution to beat the opponent.

Another big problem I see all too often is people at TH9 and 10 with low level heroes and maxed defences.

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I agree with this to a point. Im in a clan with a few engineered bases but mostly .5 and always thought that was the way to play. After joining the forums my opinion has evolved. How can the community adapt to a playstyle that involves building less and less defence. Having a lil experience with human nature 1 can assume this will become a race to the bottom, who can build less if you will. The end state of this cant be good.

dem feels :D !! I want a video of kitty playing piano too

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Originally Posted by TheSeachicken

Engineering is insipid, and it has created a race to the bottom. It is ruining (has ruined) wars. The people who played the game early on, and played clan wars honestly in its infancy, who built defense with offense are those suffering the most.

You say, "there's nothing wrong with engineering." Maybe on an individual level no. At the team/war level, yes, it absolutely is a problem with mean matchmaking algorithms that completely ignore fundamental mechanics and the importance of the top.

What should games be about? Rigging the matchup? Stacking your clan with multiple engineered accounts so you can walk over opponents utilizing no skill at all? Or should it be about skill? Skill at building a sound defense? Or gaming an algorithm? Skilled raiding? Or just smashing bases 2 levels below your own for easy perfect wars?

When it is no longer about skill, but about clan composition, the point of calling it a game is lost. When one team can easily achieve a perfect war, while the other stands no chance of doing so, what is the point?

The game doesn't favor individual skills improvement. It only favors stacking the deck.

My clan at one point was about 220-10. We did it the right way, and played the game the right way. And for six months we've watched our record steadily fall not due to clans of superior skill, but simply because so many matchups are impossible to win, and we are CONSTANTLY outmatched by wide margins at the top. It's probably been 25 wars where we had a fair top, let alone an advantage.

It's sad, because if you have a clan higher than level 10, if you want to win half your wars you have no choice but to engineer, too. It's a joke. It's trashing the game. And no gamer with a shred of integrity or sense of principle would ever accept this as it stands. It doesn't help that the algorithm punishes success with clan level and win streaks.

For the high level clans, it is simply no longer about which clan has the best raiders. It's about which clan happened to stack the deck most in their favor. And I'm sorry, but it's wrong. Especially to the people who are paying money for it. And especially when there are easy computational fixes to it.

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Excellent post. I agree.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

Yes, that is what he is saying, he thinks your weight should be considered max as your offence is max. It's an odd kind of rushing to have somehow only gotten all the offence, but be missing basic defence items at even level 1 from the previous th level, just saying... looks more like a plan to max offence for war advantage than the usual kind of thing people call "rushing" which is often less focused. And I don't think the OP is saying everyone must play a certain way, but rather that he/she is unhappy with a certain disproportionate advantage that lopsided offence heavy bases presently provide in war matchmaking.

You are wrong on the second two points. On the system the OP suggests any base with balanced development of offence and defence will do well, even one fresh to the th level, and the more disorganised type of rushers would have the same kinds of issues they presently have (which is typically being an odd mix of both defensively and offensively weak vs the useful possible war targets for them in the team lineup).

The OP's proposal doesn't favour maxers, just balance. That's a point in its favor as a suggestion. It's also a potential flaw, given how many th levels have more days of research time than build time for the player with 5 builders... resulting in a tendency for rather many normal casual players just doing their thing to naturally end up a little lopsided, but in terms of the strength of their defence rather than offence-heavy.

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Good break down of the post, Major Tom. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Krzeng9

1. There is no "right way" believe what you will but engineering is within the game and SC does not issue bans
2. There is NEVER a perfectly fair matchup. NEVER. Someone always has an extra th11 or th10 or a couple more hero levels.
3. Seriously where did half come from. Also I've seen lots of clans over lv10 that don't engineer, IIRC OneHive doesn't engineer.
4. Please tell us these "easy computational fixes". I've seen many great threads on how to nerf engineering and it boils down the the fact that either there will be a different loophole for different engineers, or that it will hurt casual players (mostly rushers) which are more in number than engineers by a long shot.

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1. Super Cell writes the laws. But the law is just an opinion with a gun. It is no metric of right, wrong, or fair. The fact that they don't issue bans, which I don't want, and most don't want, doesn't mean that exploiting algorithms to win wars is ridiculously stupid and unfair.
2. Nobody is asking for perfection. Stop strawmanning. The requests are for better balance, particularly at the top, so that both clans have a reasonable chance of winning and where skill dictates the outcome of the result as opposed to rigging the matchup.
3. One Hive doesn't engineer because they don't have to. Their clan is composed entirely of high level bases of O and D. Engineering simply does not impact them due to this clan structure as they operate on a very high mean where the only outcome is another clan at a high mean. There's nothing for those clans to gain in engineering. If you sit balanced with th7, th8, th9, even th10, you're fodder for engineers.
4. Mathematics isn't hard. Examining statistical normalization of both offense and defense through a clan also isn't hard. Looking at defensive versus offensive characteristics isn't hard. The way weight is currently allocated between O and D, and the weight of defensive objects is completely absurd, and totally arbitrary. It doesn't reflect mathematical realities. This is the very thing that opened the match making system up to exploitation in the first place.

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Originally Posted by LittleMoon

Thank you, especially for point number one. That alone is enough to end all engineering discussions.

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That's facile.

I don't think anybody is saying engineering is wrong way to play. By all means, engineer to your heart's content. It's clear where your desires lie and if this how you derive enjoyment, go for it.

What is being said is that current war matching algorithms create grossly unfair advantages to engineering clans, and produce outcomes that are not based on skill. This is not fair, and it creates disparate matchups.

That is a problem for sportsmanship in the game.

And the fact that you guys will string out arguments supporting this current structure and resist reforms that favor fairness, and habitually resist changes that would create improved skill based outcomes in clan wars, shows to the community where your level of sportsmanship lies. That you'd rather exploit an algorithm than tangle toe to toe against a fair foe, and let the outcome rest on skill.

Why whinge for . I have a engineered th11 with max troops. It's up to me if I want to have defenses . All you guys crying about them I don't understand. Its up to the individual what they want . Just get over it I reckon .
Ive spent probably 3k au money on my little gem and it's a beauty. The hardest thing about it is logging on everyday and seeing 500k worth of loot and 5k de gone . You guys don't mind raiding engineered bases do you.