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So many threads are asking if engineerers should be banned but truth is SC says nothing about them cheating and they havent banned any engineered bases unless they're also using mods or so no, engineerers are fair. Sure it's not ideal to face an engineered clan in wars but take the loss and move on. Matchmaking for the most part is even and theyre taking advantage of war weight so please, stop the whining and complaining and just accept that its not cheating
Its definitely not cheating, it is one of many strategies you can have in this game
People play the game how they want, I am sometimes impressed by these clans when I see how much work some of them put into it
I have no problem with it myself, I know a couple guys who do it, and have 1 in my clan, its a game, if clans don't adapt to it, they will continue to lose, mix in some of those bases and some .5's and youll catch up
Exactly, i understand its annoying to have a war where you have close to no chance of winning but its part of the game
Bwahahahaha. Take the loss? Not likely. In most senarios its us who beat ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel050
Common man, they are taking no more advantage of the war weight then your clan is. A clan with higher offense levels has lower defense levels. They may have an offensive advantage to offset your defensive advantage. We can't say 100% as offense weights are not public knowledge.
If you are feeling that offensive advantage is greater then defensive advantage, start pushing offense. But don't complain about an unfair match because they other clan has more defenses. Just check out this total line of our most recent match. My clan is in blue opposing clan is red.
Total-----0--6-27---------------------------------------------379-374--10--1404
Total-----0-12-38---------------------------------------------231-173--00--1468
They have 12 infernos compared to our 6 and 38 cross bows compared our 27. In order for a fair match, that defensive weight (you can see the total) difference has to be made up somewhere. It just so happens that our offense weight makes up the difference (theoretically). Therefor each clan has a similar weight. One has more proportioned to offense and the other has more proportioned towards defense. It's that simple. And its fair in terms of clan weight.
If you want to see the full break down look here on page 3:
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...mparison/page3
A little over a year ago,Town Hall sniping was not against TOS either. But, it was an exploit that SC decided was taking the fun out of the game. Millions of people were either leaving their TH exposed or actively farming those who did. Yet, in the blink of an eye the advantage of the practice was gone and millions were unhappy about it. SC will do the same with engineering (what they call lopsided bases).
Let me introduce me to my friend Anoushka, then you think long and hard before you sink more time and gems into a style of play that you believe is not against the TOS and therefore is somehow protected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anoushka[Supercell]
There really aren't many threads asking whether engineers should be banned. There are many threads asking supercell to change the matchmaking system to take away the advantage engineering creates in war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel050
The problem is system wide and clans have had enough of this engineering problem. It does not allow serious war clans to recruit certain th lvls. Our clan for instance stopped recruiting th7s and below because we find placing a th7 in war will most likely result in an engineering clan match up. We also avoid recruiting even semi rushed. So what this is actually doing is ruining it for players who would like to play the game and join up with an experienced clan to teach them. So this engineering phenomena is ruining it for players who would normally try and join an experienced clan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel050
It is not cheating. but it is creating a universal acknowledgement that it is not fair to the entire clash community who meant to play the game it was meant to be. This is no different than the TH sniping phenomenon that SC did eventually fix. I just hope SC has some type of fix to this engineering clans. They just have to find a way to make it more desirable to upgrade defences in war.
One solution is that if the matchmaking made you face a th lvl higher than you than the star earning system should be different for the player facing the disadvantage. I feel this might be a solution but if only if your mirror was a th higher than you than, if you defeat the town hall it should be counted as 2 stars, plus damage percentage.
For example if a th8 was facing a th9 mirror. That specific th8 would be able to achieve 3 stars against their mirror by simply defeating the townhall and achieving 50 percent. This would create an atmosphere of whereby those that want to engineer may continue to do so but will realize their mirror may be able to achieve 3 stars on their base.
A simple solution like this may make those engineering clans start upgrading their defenses as a counter measure to engineering bases.
It may hurt those engineering clans for a little while until they start upgrading their defenses to normal th standards but I am sure the clash community will be more than happy to have some type of fix.
Well written. That is exactly what the clash community wants. We just need a simple fix like they did for th sniping so that those engineering clans will start upgrading their defences to their appropriate th lvlQuote:
Originally Posted by 2222
They need to get a grip on th11. Th11 has made engineering worse. I know they're constantly adjusting, but theyre not there yet. I personally know wars have gotten worse for us. The ole' snowball effect because more people know about and are doing it. Leaders are influencing new members. Lets hope they fix. The warden needs more weight, thats for certain.
hold up, offence strong engineering has received a huge nerf, no way type A engieering (offence stong) is getting worse, roster and intra displine possibly, but not offence strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by daddylindo
Th11 has made it worse because theres more weight. And the power of being able to 3 star max th10's with ease. This is all relatively new stuff. Thats my educated theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
what made offence strong engineers overpowered was the crazy decision to drop offence weight way down, but this has been remedied.Quote:
Originally Posted by daddylindo
Even if supercell adjusts it its still fair. People can still set their TH outside even though its pointless its still possible. Same thing could happen to engineered bases it would be possible but dumb to but it would still be fairQuote:
Originally Posted by Prince1999
In other news. The sky is blue and the sun came up today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel050
Engineering is fair. Its like prize fighters cutting weight for the fight.
Maxxers be trying to fight at their walking around weight, then complain about getting smacked around by guys that are bigger, faster, and leaner then they are.
Terrible example for any pro-engineer. Boxing is a great argument for anti-engineers as boxing does not allow anything like an 140 pounder to go up against a 220 pounder... Boxing pits two equally weighed opponents against one another; within the weights, one boxer may be stronger, quicker, have a reach advantage, a better game plan and what not, but the advantage is never as great as what really good engineered clans can pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by RonHN
ya th11 offense is so powerful that the low accounts that rush th11 and know how to attack just dominate the wars. must be a pain in the ♥♥♥ for people to make those accounts thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by daddylindo
Its a great example for clan weight and roster engineering. It's a team game afterall, it's not about individual matchups - that's where everyone gets confused: "oh, our top is a TH9 vs a TH11" but actually their overall clan weights are comparable, and the rest of the lineup still has to perform. That's what its really about - same weight but more power.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouges
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel050
Exactly. As someone who frequents the forums regularly, the OP statement is just not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
By making such a misleading statement, all you are doing is fanning the flames of argument. :straightface:
hold up, the majority of threads dont ask for engineers to be banned, rather they call engineers cheats and poor sports. Very few correctly focus th attention on the matchmaker as the primary unit of analysis, which all the threads should be about. The accusations of cheat, cheap, manipulation, not fair play etc is what fans the flames. Or rather ignites them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrags
Very few productive threads exist where the focus is on what the matchmaker should reward, if any, by how much and why.
I agree that engineering isn't prohibited, because it is a fact and why would you prohibit someone to do with his Clash base what he or she wants, but if it isn't prohibited it doesn't necessarilly means that it is not cheating especially when entire clan is engineered. So, engineering base is not the problem, it is not the cheating. But engineering war clan for the sole purpose of gaining unfair advantage over the opponent in clan war - that is cheating by any doubt.
It is like you say that doping in sport wasn't cheating before we invented rules and regulations about it. It surely wasn't prohibited, but it definitely was... cheating.
Anyway, engineered clans are not the problem. The problem is Clash Clan War matchmaking algorithm. All they need to do is to valorize each unit and structure, then summ all up and compare to the other clan. What they do now, so it seems, they do not take much higher level army as an relevant factor in the war.
Well, exactly, and this was my point. :saywhat:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
While I do have engineered bases in my clan, about 8 or so, I think what will happen if they take the army strength into it more is engineers will just build 3 to 5 troops to max and keep all the rest really low to offset that. Everyone is so worried about their precious War Win Streak and get scared when they come across an engineered clan. We just went against an engineered clan and we lost but we didnt get beat, we beat ourselves and let them win so they are very beatable. As another commenter posted, its the top that really matters and we would have won that war was it not for a single 99% 1 star. Its part of the game and changing match making to balance will actually just flip the match making into the favor of the "Non Rushed" bases. Wars are won on the top so just hope your defenses and base design setups can hold them off. And when you become a new th10 or 11 who actually builds all infernos and the eagle and all extra defenses immediately unless you gem it? So a person that goes up a th level might not be trying to .5 but still gets punished because he doesnt want to spend money and has to go store loot to upgrade and add defense. See where Im going here?Quote:
Originally Posted by PEXS42
It's a good point. Ur right not everyone can afford those expensive defences and it would be unfair for them if SC makes troops heavier then defences.Quote:
Originally Posted by darlangelxam
Even someone like me that doesnt have an engeneered base but is focusing on my heroes rather than defences. My heores arent at all too high but I wanna get them up to like 20/20 before I start on defences again and if SC flips it so defences weigh less, I'm gonna be screwed
It needs further tweaking then! We were up against a clan with a bunch th 11's with th 9 defenses. They almost got a perfect score and we had 10 stars less 😞
It'd be really easy to match top O, and top D to ensure a fair balance in matchmaking. As pointed out, it is all about the top of both offense or defense, so even a focus there would help greatly. Balanced clans are at a distinct disadvantage due to the high prevalence of engineered clans. The engineered clans leverage both a superiority in offense and defense. Often having bases at the top with little or no hope of being three starred, while carrying offensive advantages with their engineered bases.
The supporters of this trash feign that it's not cheating - and to adapt to the meta, but some of us had been playing quite a while before clan wars was even a thing and had already built up D. Which means we should what? Start second accounts? Ditch accounts we spent a year building up? Recruit new engineers or other engineers?
Join the race to the bottom? Because that is the state of Clash and clan wars - a race to the bottom.
The fact we're talking about how to structure clans to obtain advantageous matchups by exploiting an algorithm instead of how to raid our equals better is the very definition of the problem and why Super Cell should have taken aggressive action to correct this more than a year ago.
Agree completely with your last statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSeachicken
Maybe because the game isn't only about attacking skills.
Please note the following post reflects a personal view of the writer and in no way purports to represents the view of Supercell, It's Developers or the lady that fills the Coke machine.
War's were meant to be up to 50 player, reasonably matched clans fighting it out in a battle of skill. It truly depresses me that with the exception of the very top war clans it is heading down the route of the contest being decided by who has the more efficiently engineered clan. (Engineering is not and never will be skill)
What is an even more negative reflection on the issue is how many perfectly decent Clashers have felt compelled to join the Engineered crowd and even defend it passionately as a legit tactic when deep down they absolutely know they are exploiting a loophole that's yet to be plugged.
I have no problem at all raising my standard and saying that in the spirit of Classic Clan wars fought face to face until the last second ticks down I personally do not agree it is Fairplay at all.
It is not cheating but it is slowly ruining Clan Wars for all those who choose not to do it. I've said it before, and I stand by it, that Clash is Clan wars for me, and Engineers are a bigger threat to the longevity of the game than Modders ever were. They will quickly alienate and drive away the new Clashers learning this great game and creating clans for the first time, as well as longer term Clashers who cannot afford to grow defenceless TH11's.
Show me an honest clan of 50 war hungry players and I promise you when they find a match many of them will immediately scroll down to the base of the enemies clan to check for TH10's and 11...is that what you envisioned and wanted for Clan wars? I guess if it's a yes then you're an engineer and if not you can come round for a BBQ while we moan about it over a beer.
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love this post.... maybe holps knows something that weeeee doooooont lol.. oh and btw, ive also said id rather play against mods in an evenly matched war than be in an unfairly engineered war. Cant defend against overly strong troops. Even if the mods know where your traps are, they still have the troops that were made to be defended against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
Superb post, Sir Holps. Completely agree. And I'm one of those players who has joined them--but I definitely do not defend them. Comes at a personal integrity cost that is slowly building.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSeachicken
Furthermore, the fact that anytime a clan leader or person comes here asking for advice on how to improve their war performance the answer is always inevitably to STOP building defenses of any kind and only upgrade offense screams loudly that there is a problem with the matchmaker. The fact that TH10s don't want infernos, and TH11 don't want Eagles because having them in their base HURTS them for war... screams loudly that there is a problem with the matchmaker!
It got better after October (post-March was horrendous), but could probably stand to be improved upon further.
YES!Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
And regarding the part I bolded, I've been consistent in stating exactly that, including in one of the threads Johnny always links:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
^^great post holps !!!!
...no it is not comparable, Adriel, and is not fair. TH out is an option for any player, but you cannot un-upgrade defences, you cannot dial down your base, therefore the possibilities in the engeneered vs normal bases are not equal, hence the unfairness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel050
Please do not confuse "not officially prohibited" with "totally ok and fair"
only because it's not (yet) illegal doesn't automatically make it right,
it's only different shade of wrong and everyone knows that.
Quotes:
Every being in the universe knows the difference between right and wrong (k-pax)
Two lefts don't make a right either (The BFG)
Have Fun
TS
Being pedantic, I would say I'm scrolling to the bottom looking for TH3s. They are more of a problem than defenceless TH11s now; at least in our sort of clan environment. The October update seemed to mostly fix lopsiding itself; the zero defence base still has advantages for other reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
A question for Holps though... If someone wants to join your clan with a near-max gun TH10 with 10/10 heroes, do you let them war? And if not, why not?
That question is from a looong post of mine a few days ago with my view on engineering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
I can honestly say I have never rejected a genuine war player from the forums, who wanted to war in the forum clan, based on hero level. We all take the responsibility of offering up the clan for players here to meet other forumers as the major motivation of the clan and winning wars is second.
I have, however,rejected defenceless bases.
Regards the 10/10 hero player of course we would be advising them to swiftly get their offence up to scratch but while we love to win wars It will never be the sole purpose of Clan Wars. Let's be honest...if it was we would be on the engineers boat by now.
Terrific stuff from one and all!:thumbsup:
Let those who specialize at war be great at war by having large win streaks. Let those that specialize in trophy pushing be great in legends league. Let those that max be great at defending vs their own th level. Let an average player be average. A single account can't specialize in everything. You get to pick and choose what you want to be great in. Those that do it the longest get the best results.
I applaud clans like #6aymartians for holding their course and having a huge win streak. I applaud those their reach legends league they have strategies too. It doesnt just involve playing a lot. Very, very rarely will you have someone in a clan with a large win streak and in legends league. Most people as in life don't have the discipline to stay the corse long enough to be great. Most then don't blame themselves for the issue but blame they system or that something is unfair whatever it is some else cheated to get where they are. It takes planning and discipline and time to be great and something. If you just want to play and time wasting game which most do then go play and be average.
Ummmmmm, a moderator and game specialists are saying that engineering is bad for the game, and you come up with this usual "cop out" engineer defense? I'll write it here cuz it has momentum in this thread: Engineering is bad for the game. Period. And it looks like it will be addressed, and I cant wait for that day.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
I do think you're probably in a minority there - even amongst anti engineers. Especially amongst the more serious clans, some of whom might be very sanctimonious about engineering - but might require near max heroes to war. My clan isn't that serious by I wouldn't let an inferno base below 20/20 heroes war with us; more like 25/25 if they had max guns. When someone is total dead weight, it just causes strife with the rest of the clan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
PS - if it sounds like I'm giving the pro-engineering argument, you'll find the tone of the link above quite different probably. And incidentally, not only do I reject any defenceless trying to join us, I pretty much auto-reject even x.5s trying to join (although for existing clan members things are more flexible)
Actually he was refering to defenseless if you look closer.Quote:
Originally Posted by daddylindo
Also as i have said unless you have played as an engineered base you have no idea what changes have been made. Again my defenseless th11 is being matched. Not as a mirror but now matched with th10/11. So this matchmaking issue that so many claim is more of an illusion just seen on paper. Wake up and see what is really going on. Deal with what is real and not just what you see on paper.
Btw id love to hear a moderators thoughts on if those that specialize should be rewarded or not.
Holps was very clear on saying its his opinion, not SCs. The game specialist badge doesnt mean you cant have opinions on what you like or not. I have seen game specialist who support engineering. I could dig through posts and quote them if you likeQuote:
Originally Posted by daddylindo
to be fair, those of us with badges saying we're not a fan of engineering are doing so as our personal opinions only and not as any form of official communication from SC.Quote:
Originally Posted by daddylindo
yes why badges mean anything i don't know....its personnal opinions
there are moderators that have engineered bases of their own and also belong to clans with engineered accounts so....
that said i have no trouble facing engineered clans its just another easy base...so i think engineers have to be good at it...very good attackers actually
mismatches tho happen still and that annoys me
I wouldn't disagree with your post re serious war clans and offence. I have been in many excellent war clans that would never accept a rushed base with low heroes. My view is very particular to proper engineered clans Warring at a decent level. I've seen people claiming that as we have and still have .5 bases in the forum clan then we are also guilty of it but a 9.5 base is a world away from a defenceless 11 with 35 heroes and a decent GW. That is generally a paid for base created solely to create a mismatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
This is all personal preference and my view is a genuine concern for the games future not a selfish need for more green on my war log. I love wars and Clash. A 48 hour dead walkover serves nobody including the engineers in my view.
I may add: badges don't mean they know how mm works either...a few had demonstrated that fact quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LieutenantRED
Well that just sounds like a poor choice....Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
Paid for is the key word. Engineers are lobbying supercell to not do a thing about it and I find it hard to blame supercell. People threatening to quit over engineering are likely not to quit, and the money from engineers continues to flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
If they change matchmaking and the reward from gemming these bases is drastically reduced, they will lose a chunk of change. Us non-engineered players aren't going to all of a sudden supplement the lost income.
ahh the rabbit is out of the hat...we upgrade sensibly, they engineer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
I disagree with you Holps, a 9.5 is a lopsided base, just like a defenseless TH11. Many people accuse me of being an engineer, yet my clan would never accept a x.5 or defenseless account.
Always great, well thought out posts by you Holps. Some real gems in this thread.
And yet, SC tweaks to the MM algorithm in a fashion that effectively renders a large portion .5s useless.... while allowing defenseless/lopsided bases to still thrive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
of course they are not cheating ... that was what Supercell wanted in the first place ... to create an imaginative platform to showcase your talents and working at your optimum given the environment.
how do u get a TH11 with 1 cannon and level 10 king and queen and level 5 warden? and maxed dragons? ... you pay for it ...
Maybe so but the forum clan is a very specific and unique example of a warring clan created to help build a better forum community, not to simply pile up wins. You have to see it in that context.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKreg
Im in a war right now that we are not going to win. They have 3 bases up top with 40/40/20 + heroes. Num 1 is maxed. Num 2 is a 10.5, and num 3 doesnt have infernos. All their th9's have MONSTER HEROES, some maxed. And they got 9m5's sprinkled in with the 9's, like 2 or 3 of em have 5 spells. I am the lone th11, and i am not even CLOSE TO A MAX TH11, NOT EVEN IN THE SAME GALAXY. I got 41/33/10 heroes, level 2 eagle, and then all th10 defenses. We have 1 medium th10, and 2 newborn baby th10's, one who doesnt have his third xbow yet and the other doesnt have his second inferno yet. They are definitely putting up 74 stars in this 25 v 25, AND THEN THEYRE GONNA TAKE TURNS ON ME, ALL 3 OF EM. So they may put up 75 cuz im not maxed or close to max. All their lowers are gonna clean our 9's and 8's cuz theyre 9's are huge and th9 is a dead town hall today. So dont you engineers tell me that this is good for the game, I DONT WANNA HEAR IT. WE COULD STOP THE SMOKING MIRRORS NOW
LOL :rolleyes: Got get those personal shots in at me, don't ya?Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
To be fair, the forum goat herd doesn't harshly screen or dictate the upgrade progression of the bases entering the clan. It's a fun and social side project if you will, and if an individual member of the clan goes to TH10 without dropping infernos the leaders of the clan are unlikely to even notice and it doesn't really make the FGH an "engineered clan."Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
And you won't find many here who agree with you that "a 9.5 is a lopsided base JUST like a defenseless TH11." Yes they are both edging towards "lopsided", but the disparity between the two is easily discernible.
Hi cnaf,Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
In another thread that got buried in the suggestions forum you mentioned that you have a near max offense TH11 with TH9ish defenses in your clan.
You stated that he would be a liability to add to your clan wars. If he had a level 1 cannon would he be an asset? I'm not trolling you here this is a serious question :)
The last line "A 48 hour dead walkover serves nobody including the engineers in my view" is pretty much exactly something I said in the post I linked. I think where we differ slightly is putting the "blame" for engineering. My personal view is it's hopeless to try and say what is fair and what isn't - just look at the reactions to x.5s. There are serious clans out there who will no longer permit them because they are too big a disadvantage; and there are people responding in this thread along the lines of "aha - so you do engineer!".Quote:
Originally Posted by Holps
The frustration for me is that SC haven't managed to improve the MM further. As a software engineer I can see it's very difficult getting it really good. But OTOH SC have left some pretty obvious problems in the MM unresolved for months and months - the classic example being March-October when they (mostly) ignored offence. Plenty of people on here were able to predict what would happen even before the March update went live; but SC didn't seem to fix it for 7 months.
Actually it was not aimed at you at all. I just find you are biased, not uninformed.Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
And I don't care at all if anyone share my opinion. They can do anything they want...they will just suffer the consequences and come here after to complain.
Btw: it seems that SC shares my opinion...
fair enough, my apologies. And I won't run from my bias, I'm no fan of engineering and think it to be unhealthy for the game long term. Engineers aren't necessarily "cheaters" by the letter of the law, or deserve bans or anything else crazy like that however (which sometimes gets bantered about on these forums), I'm just not a fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
With regard to "SC sharing your opinion," you might be right in that the most recent changes to matchmaking seemingly nerfed THx.5 accounts more than it nerfed defenseless ones, which is crazy imo. But even so, the presence of less than a handful of .5s in the Forum Goat Herd (doing 50 man wars) doesn't make them an "engineered clan," which was mostly my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
As an aside, I really do need to go war with the Goat Herd again sometime. Holps, when is the current war wrapping up?
I think given the new MM tweaks, and the makeup of our clan- a defenseless TH11 would be an even bigger liability than the mate with TH9 defenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrial
That new mate in question you are mentioning- still trying to convince him to get those defenses up.
ETA- very important to distinguish clan makeup there. Plenty of clans where that defenseless TH11 would do well, plenty of clans using them that currently are. Our clan, as it is currently constructed- is not conducive for it.
In just under three hours, space available now☺Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
Lmaoooo what?? 9.5 is lopsided? N u comparing it to a defenseless th11? ♥♥♥♥ dude plz stop for the love of god. .5 although advantageous(maybe not as much now but still offer slight advantage at least) is nowhere near as advantageous as a defenseless th11. Dude r u for real? Lol n u claim to know about mm?Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
Sounds like in your clan (maxers with high heroes/offense) a defenseless base would hurt you.Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
If they can be an asset or a liability I don't see how that is unfair?
You just described a way they could be a liability in your clan makeup.
If they are an asset, that base must be making up for deficiencies (poor attacking, poor hero levels, etc) elsewhere in the clan. I have no issues with people using an engineered base for this purpose. The reason I don't mind it is that in lieu of engineering the clan could alternatively bench or boot players who are bad attackers or have poor hero levels. If they did this then they'd end having the makeup similar to your clan and then that defenseless base would become a liability.
Had to repost this just in case anyone missed it lol. It was well written n logic behind it is spot onQuote:
Originally Posted by Holps
Also had to repost this lol. Beautifully said in regards to building def will hurt u instead of help u.Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfedname
This is not about engineering but something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by daddylindo
Prior to the Feb update many were complaining about matchups. Not engineers but that th10's wo inferos were matched with th10 with level 3. Th9s wo xbows were matched with th with. Th11 wo ea were matched against th11 with. So SC changed it. And everyone started complaining about engineering. Now that SC has changed it back to pre Feb the same old old comolaints are coming up. Just now the blame is in engineers.
Check out the hulk files. I dont think he plays anymore. He had a bunch of ideas how to combat going against xbow it and ea.
.5 is engineering - letting your understanding of the matchmaker drive your upgrade decisions. It also becomes lopsided very quickly. If you upgrade the big offense for your townhall but don't drop the big defense? Lopsided.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
Is defenseless even more lopsided? Sure. Is a defenseless th11 a big MM advantage? Dunno actually. Never had one on my team, never seen one on the other team despite warring 24/7 in two clans.
It is a pretty complicated thing to talk about, since there are many different views and definitions.
I do agree that, sometimes, 9.5 can be considered an engineered (or however you call those now) base. Perma-9.5s (what is the definition of 9.5 though? Nothing added since TH9, nothing upgraded, or only certain things upgraded? That's another variable to enter in the equation) is also another concept to discuss, cause it's more likely a smart path to not insta-drop infernos (imo) while your offense power (specially spell factory / cc / key lab upgrades) is still not consolidated as a TH10.
I've seen quite a lot of defenseless bases recently, or Th11 bases with 30/30+ and weighting as TH7~8, didn't change much on those the last MM balance.
Doesnt lopsided mean extreme? Is .5 route of ug actually that extreme? Advantageous sure but it isnt extreme no? As far whether or not it being advantageous, of course it is. No? Tbh im not 100% sure bc I never used engineered bases or defenseless basesQuote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
Great argument. They used to use the same logic to justify slavery. Get real buddy- it's taking an unfair advantage. It may not be against the rules but it's poor sportsmanship
Does lopsided mean extreme? How much is too much, and must be called extreme? Don't know. I'd guess most players will look at anyone that goes one step farther than they did, and call it extreme.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
But its not a worthwhile argument. SC's October update, which they said was aimed at lopsided bases, clearly hit .5s. So I don't think there's a point in splitting hairs over what's extreme and what isn't.
goat herd doesnt allow engineered bases? Why? One or two engineers from the forums isnt going to make you automatically win wars lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Holps
Truth it is subjective but general consensus is lopsided: 2 ths below current th. All I know is that it gives u a ridiculous advantage where most (not all) people can competeQuote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
Forum consensus, if there is such a thing, is irrelevant. Open up heavy offense without the heavy defense, you're lopsided by weight. Its about math, not about opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
Should we be calling maxers with baby heroes and lvl1 golems lopsiders, too? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
Lol... Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
Very good question. I am curious to see how SC deals with these kind of bases - low offense, high defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
http://i.imgur.com/UqJ15WD.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
They're out there. This one had baby heroes, but they are out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
For someone with little or no experience with engineer bases, you seems to be quite confident in your knowledge. Just the fact you think x.5 provides some advantage now, despite all the contrary evidence out there, makes me doubt that very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
OK, let's talk math when considering what is offense heavy or defense heavy?Quote:
Originally Posted by TankSinatra
If you put heroes and walls into the equation a "balanced" TH9 with 20/20 heroes should have legos completed and a decent chunk of lava walls done. In addition they should only have about half of their TH9 defenses maxed because they they are only about half way to 30/30 heroes (max offense) and full lava walls.
I'd venture to say that 95+% of TH9s with 20/20 heroes have already maxed their defenses and are simply working on walls and heroes. From a balanced perspective this would put them in the camp of defense heavy.
Most maxed defense TH9s I have come across don't even have 20/20 heroes and some still have partial skull walls. If "you" don't engineer your base then its super easy to max out on other upgrades while heroes and walls lag behind. If the MM was good at matching similar bases against each other then this wouldn't be an issue but the MM is erratic; therefore we have all these people coming to the forums blaming engineers for their losses while the entity they should be most angry at is the game developer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrial
Nope, they should blame themselves for not understanding how the mm is done. The developer is doing a fantastic job right now. And they have data from millions of war match ups as proof - not a couple of anecdotal mismatches from here and there, that sometimes turned out NOT to be a mismatch after further careful analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
Hard to blame themselves when SC has not explained how MM is done. All we have going is anecdotal evidence of how war MM works; SC never tells the players that its a bad idea to drop 2 crossbows the moment they turn TH9.Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
MM is erratic. I can put out the same exact lineup in a 25v25 war and within a week I can get one match that clearly favors us, one match that clearly favors the opposition and one even match. People's war weight can't have changed much in 6 days yet MM returns us with a wide range of opponents. If MM was more precise people wouldn't need to worry about whether putting down extra walls is a good idea or when they should drop key defenses.
This would be a good point if what was good for war was consistent with what is good for multiplayer. What was described in the post you replied to (th9s with max defense while working on heroes still only at 20) is an upgrade path that makes sense for multiplayer. If not for war, it would not make sense to not build the bows at th9. The only reason to hold off now is war (although some would say lately the .5 route isn't much of an advantage anyway, but that is another topic). If multiplayer and war were consistent, so that the same upgrade path was good for both, THEN I would agree with you that anyone who doesn't intelligently upgrade along that path deserves every disadvantage they get.Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
I guess that's my point. Everyone thinks they build in a balanced manner but upon close inspection the vast majority of players have rushed defenses with heroes and walls lagging behind. I'm guessing here but a max TH9 with 30/30 heroes and max walls takes roughly twice as many resources to build as a "max" TH9 with 15/15 heroes with half skulls & legos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
And that's where I disagree. If multiplayer and war upgrading were the same path it would take a ton of strategy & discipline out of this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Everyone would simply rush their TH and defense because it would be advantageous in cup pushing, multiplayer and war.
Personally I feel walls and heroes (the most difficult things to max) should be slightly rewarded by the MM. Currently I believe walls are rewarded but high heroes are not.
If SC told us exactly how the MM worked then everyone would be able to easily figure out how to game it to a greater extent then they already have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
It isn't SC job to teach of the proper path to build your base or play the game for that matter. I look at it like Madden, the game doesn't tell you how to build your team and call plays. Sure the game teaches you the how to use the tools they have provided but it falls on the users to decide how they will play the game. If SC told us all how to play the game everyone would just have the same bases.
Yes the MM is erratic but it will always be, there is no possible way that every time you hit the start war button that there is another clan with the exact makeup your clan has for you to face. The MM matches you with the closest available clan barring offense and defense on both sides at the time you start your search. That is honestly the best it will ever be without waiting hours for a war match to be found. I mean I am not saying there can't be tweaks made to help find closer matches but we also need to be able to match an opponent in a reasonable amount of time.
edit:
SC explained exactly how mm is done - by matching clans with similar strengths. Yet many incorrectly assume many irrelevant things are in the mm, like: clan level, TH level, perk level, win streak, or that only defense matter, or matching is done by mirror base comparison etc....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
BTW, there is nothing wrong with adding the xbows when one turn to TH9. That base will sometimes match to a max TH8, sometimes to another TH9 with only xbow added or sometimes to a rushed TH9. And that is all fair. The issue is that because that base is higher on the war map, and probably matched to a Th9 with similar defenses, and because of the very common flawed mirror attacking strategy, many noobs now assume that they must attack the opposite base. However, since they still only have TH8 offense, they will fail on the opposite base. The sensible strategy would be for them to hit other max TH8, and that is not a liability to their clan.
On the opposite side, defenseless bases tend to believe they do a favor to their clan because they hit much higher on the war map. The issue is how high. If a defenseless TH9 with TH9 offense is hitting another TH8, even though that base is 10 or 20 positions on the war map, that is a liability to the clan. Contrary to the common belief, that defenseless TH9 does not match to a TH5 because they are mirrored on the war map. It probably attracts another full TH9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
This is exactly how SC want the mm to play out. Adding variety in match ups to make war exciting. Having to face the same war composition, weight, and TH every war will get stale quickly.
Having a winstreak snapped by an engineered clan thats too top heavy (which is super relevant btw speaking of the top bases) gets stale. When they take the weight of the whole clan that manipulated its weight, it gets paired against a clan that it shouldnt have gotten paired with in the first place. THAT gets staleQuote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrial
I agree the weights of heroes and walls should not be high as those should be rewarded with an advantage. Where we disagree, is you apparently want more of the outcome of war to depend on who upgrades their base in a certain fashion while I prefer it to depend more on the skill of base designs and attacks. Also, I disagree that everyone would upgrade their bases correctly. Half the players out there have no idea what they are doing and don't really care. Those who do, though, should be able to upgrade their base on a way that is best for both multiplayer and war, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of SC. Until then, though, I don't fault anyone for engineering.
Well said .... 3 wars ago we come up against a very tough clan . We had 3 engineered th11's and they beat us by 1 . They had no engineered bases. One of our members left the clan to congratulate them on a fine effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
People think you win all the time if you have them , not correct . Anyway wish people would just get over it and move on .
Lol how knowledgeable must one b to know that engineered bases give huge advantage in wars? Words r meaningless tho. Since u seem to b mm expert who knows engineers dont have advantage plz show me a engineer clan n its war to put some validation behind ur words. All I hear from u is charlie browns teacher talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
I didn't know that being a moderator mean having the monopoly of the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by daddylindo
He (well) explained his points but it's still his personal opinion.
Nah I will not waste my time to spoon feed info to stubborn people who don't want to learn. You already admitted you know nothing nor care about engineer clans. Your first step should be to read about engineer clans, perhaps visit a few and check their match ups, so next time your discussion will be more accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
Ooo ok gotcha. U dont wanna waste ur time. Wink* solid excuse. I personally would have used "dog ate my hw" one instead to make it more believable but I understand. HeheQuote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
While I agree completely that there is no monopoly on the truth I would say that it was pretty evident that under the preOctober matchingQuote:
Originally Posted by d112
1. Many clans found themselves facing frankly unwinnable matches where an opponent could have two thlevels better or best offence AND a full th level better of best defence and
2. Many people on the bottom found their clan war experience to be often ... clearing of defenceless bases .. what fun
I do not blame engineers for engineering .. we all seek advantage where we can etc etc . I blame matching that made this viable and effective . defenceless and its impacts could not have been fun for the losers . Hell .. other than the fun of winning I wondered at the fun of the winners .. if a max offense th11 clears two th9 every war is that fun ? They may be proud of the win streak but it seems the skill was in working the matchmaker
Frankly, I don't really care what you believe in nor do I care to change your opinion either. If you want to learn, you need to have a better attitude. But if you are happy to stay in the dark and continue with your unremarkable wins streak, so be it also.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
BTW, let me know when your clan reaches 10 ws...
Agree Flubber, but we are talking about post-October update now. And it seems those mods are not up to speed yet with the changes. TBH, I don't beleive many mods to be expert of the mm to start with, so no, they certainly don't have the monopoly of truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flubber41
Want an good expert opinion, check with Cnaf or Onyx.
Hehe will do. My attitude is dictated by whom im conversing with. Js =) bc my clan cant reach 10 ws does this mean ur clan is stronger? =(Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
Yes I have seen their posts .Quote:
Originally Posted by topbtm
my perception is matching is far better . In our matches even if one side or the other has an advantage It isn't as overwhelming as I saw pre-October .. and as a clan that WAS led by MAXIng 9s I am so happy that I am once again able to meet and punish rushed tens lol
back a year or so ago I can remember all sorts of mismatch threads where 9s complained if the other side had an inferno or two .. I used to laugh because when outnumbered In infernos we pretty much always won .
As per title, I agree that engineering is fair play. It takes me back to other games long ago that also had alternate fair play options.
Contra (Nintendo) - a majority of gamers from the era could recite to this day the fair play 'cheat code' which grants the player 10 times the normal amount of attempts.
Donkey Kong - I remember the intellivision version where you could actually get your guy to jump past the gorilla throwing the barrels at the top and never be killed. If you timed your jump to when he let go of the barrels, you would get the score credit for jumping them despite not being anywhere near them lol.
There was also another PAC Man type game where sometimes you could get your guy outside of the maze and the score would just keep climbing like the national debt clock.
All of these, and many others that I can't think of at the moment, are within the rules of the game. The thing that these examples have in common with COC engineering is that it dimishes the accomplishment. Accomplishing something with such a large advantage, or invincibility, is no accomplishment at all.
The argument of "upgrading your base the way you want" is hilarious to me. We're it not for war MM, can anybody really say that they would go to TH11 without infernos or X-bows? Yeah right, get real. There's only so many options with the limited defenses of which we all have access to in the exact same quantity lol.
Another argument I like is that putting weight on TH will screw over the inexperienced rushers and give an advantage to the maxers. LOL, well I guess it's ok for engineers to match up with them and throttle them but not so much for maxers.
Personally I agree that people should be able to pursue the game path that they desire. The problem lies when the engineering effects nonparticipants, which is what happens when they match up in war. It would be beneficial if engineers and maxers could be segregated. I have a hunch that if this were the case, engineering would drastically decline as there really is no reason to upgrade your base in this fashion for fun or otherwise.