Supercell PLEASE find a solution to roster engineering

We war 10 vs 10 and we used to have a 50% win record. We would get matched against clans with their bottom 3 bases being th5 or lower and their top 2 of course th11 while we normally would have only one th11 or zero.

We started imitating the other clans' rosters, leaving our bottom 3 spots for some inactives th5s and lower: We are now for the first time in a 10 win streak, lol.

Since Supercell won't do anything about it (due to manpower issues, technical dificulties and/or greed) people have to either adapt (like a true chief, lol) or quit doing clan wars.

tl;dr:
can't beat them, join them ;)

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Originally Posted by jonrdavies

See our current war 50 vs 50 matchup on the previous page

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The forums make it out that engineered bases/clans are everywhere and are dominating searches and every joe and bill run into them, etc...

but if that was the case, wouldnt sc step in?

I expect sc to wait until engineering becomes the norm (or atleast close)

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Originally Posted by jonrdavies

SMH... none of our minimax bases are even remotely near the top... any affect they have in our clan wars is still negligible. The issue is when one clan dominates the top positions... not when one clan has a 3 bases out of 50 in the mid-tier that are at an advantage.

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I agree with you, but still on a principle standpoint...you didnt do yourself any favors. Also 50-50 wars and 10-10 wars are the most likely to get mismatches. Theres just not a ton of clans runnin linups from 11 to th3-6 in these types of wars. Kind of putting yourself in that situation

completely disagree- in our war that starts in a few hours their 14 and 15 are th9s (with 14 - a few cannons - 15 1 cannon yet max th 9 troops) our 14 and 15 are th7 and 6 respectively - we get six stars they get 12...... no advantage?????? Their 1 and 2 are nearly maxed 11s ours is a new 11 and a 10 ------ no advantage!!!!!!!! We have no chance to win this thing - what about those who get discouraged and quit the game?????? or leave the clan?????

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Originally Posted by TH10clasher

When we need one or two more accounts in a war, I add the lowest TH's in my clan. Our two are a TH4 & TH5, not defenseless TH3's though. They aren't expected to attack since they were opted out.
Why would I throw in higher TH's in this situation? Losing 2 or 4 attacks higher up is too costly. My only alternative would be to sit out 3 people who wanted to war, & search with a smaller lineup.
Not all little TH's at the bottom are attempts at engineering.

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Exactly every clan does this not to get an advantage but just to minimize the damage of having two bases not able to attack

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Originally Posted by jskoe

completely disagree- in our war that starts in a few hours their 14 and 15 are th9s (with 14 - a few cannons - 15 1 cannon yet max th 9 troops) our 14 and 15 are th7 and 6 respectively - we get six stars they get 12...... no advantage?????? Their 1 and 2 are nearly maxed 11s ours is a new 11 and a 10 ------ no advantage!!!!!!!! We have no chance to win this thing - what about those who get discouraged and quit the game?????? or leave the clan?????

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It hasnt even started yet...my experience is these clans just arent that good. Youd be suprised how much of a chance u have if you try ur best. Often times those max 9s with one cannon will hit th8s lol

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

Now that i think about it you are asking all sub th7s to be ineligble for war because you got a 1 town hall mismatch in 1 war? Thats pretty ridiculous honestly...

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Our last 6 or seven wars - 50% against engineered rosters- doubt it is 1 th in 1 war - seems to come in waves. we have had 4 really good close matchups and now back to the trash heap!

Honestly, my friend, we will try and will try our hardest - these guys have an 8 game win streak and have won 276 wars. They know what they are doing. We will waste resources and time to go down, but we will go down fighting!!

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Originally Posted by jskoe

Our last 6 or seven wars - 50% against engineered rosters- doubt it is 1 th in 1 war - seems to come in waves. we have had 4 really good close matchups and now back to the trash heap!

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Screenshots? We have been getting pretty fair matchups for months now.

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

I agree with you, but still on a principle standpoint...you didnt do yourself any favors. Also 50-50 wars and 10-10 wars are the most likely to get mismatches. Theres just not a ton of clans runnin linups from 11 to th3-6 in these types of wars. Kind of putting yourself in that situation

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Not trying to get favors, just trying to be transparent. We have two TH6s I think as out lowest bases in the lineup, and again, neither of them is defenseless.

I think that until the TH lvl becomes a factor in matchmaking we are going to continue to see clans "game the system" to try and get an upper hand. I'm the leader over at Level5 and I'm all in favor of making that move so we don't see situations like this. That being said, I know that whatever changes come, we'll probably all be foaming at the mouth to try and manipulate whatever new systems get incorporated.

*** I will say, as long as the Octopus keeps roaming freely I'm happy overall with clan wars. Just see this as an area for SC to improve/address

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Originally Posted by osuchemnerd

Porky, What you are proposing would effectively prevent any new clan from being formed.

You get 10 players in a new clan for a war then lose a couple after the first war and maybe each war after. If you wait to long between wars your members are going to leave because they want to war.

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War is a side event not the main game, what I am suggesting is wait till a clan is established before starting wars. Until then enjoy the game for the game that it is.
COC was number one for years before war, it isn't a mandatory event, I get young undeveloped clans get impatient and might wanna try a war but if the only way you can do so is to do underhanded roster engineering, then either accept what your doing is sly and low or put your efforts into recruiting. There are lots of open clans out there, why not take such a small clan over to another open one, friends stay together and you can hopefully then be in big enough numbers to war cleanly.
If recruitment is honestly that hard for you then ask yourself why the clan is so unattractive.
recruitment isn't a hard thing, getting people in is easy from global, getting people to stay is all about being a team that others are proud to be in. This can be achieved with encouragement, help, advice and fun chat. There is no pride in any kind of engineering, well maybe the type of pride cruella has in her coat but not much else.

I have a solution. Every base should be a defenseless max offense TH11. Everyone can get perfect war ties and clan wars will be great.

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Originally Posted by jonrdavies

This isn't true. We are in a Prep Day right now and the opposing clan stacked several defenseless bases at the bottom of their roster - and here are the results:
I am not advocating that TH3s not be allowed to war, but SC needs to factor in TH lvl to a greater extent when determining war weights otherwise this system will become more and more abused. We do not have any defenseless bases, but we do have 2 minimax and a hand-full of .5s out of 50 bases.

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Ehh, you are in a 50-man war, which is the largest possible.

I'm a little less inclined to give major sympathy for your opponent having an edge at the top ~5, as the middle/bottom should significantly count here.

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Originally Posted by Krsatjhook

I can tell you that both roster engineering AND base engineering have impacted thee win/loss record of my clan tremendously over the last 3-4 months. We went from winning at a 4:1 ratio to being just about 50/50 win loss. And it because of roster and base engineering. It is not a 1 time thing. IN FACT, I have had to 1. Change war start time (used to play at night pst, now in the day) 2. Take only 1 of our 2 maxed th11's to war at a time 3. Constantly reassure my clan to stay focused on the game and not give up. All because of this issue. And guess what? We STILL see roster engineering AND base engineering. When you face a clan with maxed troops at the 17 spot in a 20 player war whose mirror is a th 7? You tell me there's nothing wrong with the system.

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I agree with TH/base engineering. I've been an advocate for a while now that no/minimal bullying at the top of a war map should occur in an ideal world, especially in smaller wars

Roster engineering is a much harder sell though. A TH3 in war seems much more like a gambit, as you are not only throwing away two attacks, your clan is giving up 3* almost no matter what

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Originally Posted by Krsatjhook

When your maxed th9 sitting at the 3 spot in a 20 man war gets 3*d by the opponent 18? You tell me there's nothing wrong with the system. There is absolutely no rational way to defend any of this stuff. And everybody knows it. The problem is that every day that passes and another clan gets sick of it one of two things happens. 1. They give in and accept the if you can't beat them join them group, or 2. They quit altogether.

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The frustrating you just described seems to be aimed at TH/base engineering, not roster engineering. I can guarantee no TH3 is going to 3* a max TH9, ever. SC would have to come out with a super troop with a max camp space of 10 in order to do that, which will never happen

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Originally Posted by Krsatjhook

I can tell you that both roster engineering AND base engineering have impacted thee win/loss record of my clan tremendously over the last 3-4 months. We went from winning at a 4:1 ratio to being just about 50/50 win loss. And it because of roster and base engineering. It is not a 1 time thing. IN FACT, I have had to 1. Change war start time (used to play at night pst, now in the day) 2. Take only 1 of our 2 maxed th11's to war at a time 3. Constantly reassure my clan to stay focused on the game and not give up. All because of this issue. And guess what? We STILL see roster engineering AND base engineering. When you face a clan with maxed troops at the 17 spot in a 20 player war whose mirror is a th 7? You tell me there's nothing wrong with the system.

When your maxed th9 sitting at the 3 spot in a 20 man war gets 3*d by the opponent 18? You tell me there's nothing wrong with the system. There is absolutely no rational way to defend any of this stuff. And everybody knows it. The problem is that every day that passes and another clan gets sick of it one of two things happens. 1. They give in and accept the if you can't beat them join them group, or 2. They quit altogether.

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I got 2 starred by the #30 when I was #4 once lol

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Roster engineering is a much harder sell though. A TH3 in war seems much more like a gambit, as you are not only throwing away two attacks, your clan is giving up 3* almost no matter what



The frustrating you just described seems to be aimed at TH/base engineering, not roster engineering. I can guarantee no TH3 is going to 3* a max TH9, ever. SC would have to come out with a super troop with a max camp space of 10 in order to do that, which will never happen

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The problem isn't getting three stars on the bottom. Every clan expects to clear their enemies bottom bases. It's at the top, where the lower weight at the bottom is causing problems. If you can easily sub in a scrub th3 account at the bottom to pull an th11 vs a th10 at the top something is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Krsatjhook

IN FACT, I have had to 1. Change war start time (used to play at night pst, now in the day)

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Not to derail the thread too much, but what benefit do you believe this gives you?

Very curious here.

My clan just got done warring with an engineered war clan. There definitely were a few "defenseless" bases in the other clan's roster. That clan also has one heck of a war log for wins. They were good, but they also try to tip it in their favor with the defenseless bases. A TH10 that is ranked 13 out of 15? A TH9 ranked 15 out of 15? Only had to look at their profiles to know what to expect. Unfortunately some of my clanmates got a bit overconfident in taking on the defenseless bases. They thought they could do it with cheap troops. Surprise! Some of the "defenseless" bases had the hidden surprises - teslas and giant bombs. Hopefully a lesson learned - don't underestimate the opponent when it comes to clan wars.

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Originally Posted by Krsatjhook

I can tell you that both roster engineering AND base engineering have impacted thee win/loss record of my clan tremendously over the last 3-4 months. We went from winning at a 4:1 ratio to being just about 50/50 win loss. And it because of roster and base engineering. It is not a 1 time thing. IN FACT, I have had to 1. Change war start time (used to play at night pst, now in the day) 2. Take only 1 of our 2 maxed th11's to war at a time 3. Constantly reassure my clan to stay focused on the game and not give up. All because of this issue. And guess what? We STILL see roster engineering AND base engineering. When you face a clan with maxed troops at the 17 spot in a 20 player war whose mirror is a th 7? You tell me there's nothing wrong with the system.

When your maxed th9 sitting at the 3 spot in a 20 man war gets 3*d by the opponent 18? You tell me there's nothing wrong with the system. There is absolutely no rational way to defend any of this stuff. And everybody knows it. The problem is that every day that passes and another clan gets sick of it one of two things happens. 1. They give in and accept the if you can't beat them join them group, or 2. They quit altogether.

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While we haven't seen as many engineers as you, we have been getting matched with them more & more often. Like your clan, we've lost a lot more wars since October. It's been hard to keep morale up when the same people had been used to winning a lot over the last 10+ months. Just give us a level playing field & we'll be happy.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

I completely agree, however, if no one brings attention to the problem how is Supercell supposed to know it exist, much less attempt to correct the issue.

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I sent you a pm.

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Please provide proof this impacts only the top of a war map only and not the possibility of impacting, say, the middle/bottom of a war map.

I don't disagree that mismatches at the top can happen due to the inclusion of these types of THs, which is particularly relevant in smaller wars (correction to your comment above--in larger wars, the middle of a war map can easily decide wars, not just the top), but the way you worded it is likely not accurate.



I believe there is a difference between an engineered clan (e.g. the inclusion of defenseless bases, min-max, etc) vs. roster engineering



I disagree that one is cheating the system by including a TH3 (or whatever) at the bottom. Said TH cannot attack, nor defend, for anything.

I think this is much more akin to a gambit.

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Dumping th3's into an otherwise high end war is a common method engineers use to try to get easier matchups these days. JohnnySullivan hit the nail on the head earlier about it, he could put th9's with a hero down in war, or go with 10 or 15 instead of 15 or 20, but he includes the lowbies to make war easier. That's the definition of engineering. It's not extreme, and it's not always effective, but it's a quick and dirty way that many casual players use to try to get a war advantage.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

The problem isn't getting three stars on the bottom. Every clan expects to clear their enemies bottom bases. It's at the top, where the lower weight at the bottom is causing problems. If you can easily sub in a scrub th3 account at the bottom to pull an th11 vs a th10 at the top something is wrong.

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I never said getting 3* at the bottom was the problem. Further, you seem to be looking at this issue from only a smaller war perspective, which has some flaws, as previously mentioned.

I also think you missed my reply to you before, where I asked:

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Please provide proof this impacts only the top of a war map only and not the possibility of impacting, say, the middle/bottom of a war map.

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Your conclusion that, "you can easily sub in a scrub th3 account at the bottom to pull an th11 vs a th10 at the top" is currently a non sequitur logical fallacy, flirting with begging the question.

Lunatic, if I wanted empathy the forums would be the last place I would come. ;)

So, what is the answer to stop roster engineering? Is it a maximum hall spread allowed between highest and lowest hall in the war? That would result in some legit players being unable to war with their clans (although, not for long). The other idea I've heard is to further increase the importance of the "top" of the map, but that seems like it would cause problems for balanced clans in balanced wars. I also wonder whether it would give an advantage to lopsided bases who would have their high offense count for little in the match since they are at the "bottom." Maybe it needs to be a combination of both? Don't limit the spread of halls, but do place more importance on any higher town halls in a sliding scale from the highest hall in the war line-up to the lowest? Now your maxed out th11 counts for the most, but your engineered th10 also counts for a lot, more than a junk th3.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

As the title suggest, please do something about roster engineering. There should be no reason why th3 are allowed to be included in a war lineup consisting of th10 and 11. This drops their entire clan weight making for very uneven matches at the top. IMO, anything below th7 shouldn't be allowed to war. Yeah I'll probably receive some flak for that but it's my opinion. There should be no reason an account like this is even allowed to participate in wars.

http://i.imgur.com/mLhweyq.jpg

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I would and could not support any plan that would disallow new players from being included in wars.

TH lvls need to carry some "threshold" of war weight.

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Originally Posted by DavePorky

War is a side event not the main game, what I am suggesting is wait till a clan is established before starting wars. Until then enjoy the game for the game that it is.
COC was number one for years before war, it isn't a mandatory event, I get young undeveloped clans get impatient and might wanna try a war but if the only way you can do so is to do underhanded roster engineering, then either accept what your doing is sly and low or put your efforts into recruiting. There are lots of open clans out there, why not take such a small clan over to another open one, friends stay together and you can hopefully then be in big enough numbers to war cleanly.
If recruitment is honestly that hard for you then ask yourself why the clan is so unattractive.
recruitment isn't a hard thing, getting people in is easy from global, getting people to stay is all about being a team that others are proud to be in. This can be achieved with encouragement, help, advice and fun chat. There is no pride in any kind of engineering, well maybe the type of pride cruella has in her coat but not much else.

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War is a "side event" ... really?

The game is called Clash of Clans.

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

Dumping th3's into an otherwise high end war is a common method engineers use to try to get easier matchups these days. JohnnySullivan hit the nail on the head earlier about it, he could put th9's with a hero down in war, or go with 10 or 15 instead of 15 or 20, but he includes the lowbies to make war easier. That's the definition of engineering. It's not extreme, and it's not always effective, but it's a quick and dirty way that many casual players use to try to get a war advantage.

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I don't disagree it reduces war weight, of course it does that and that's the whole point.

But that lowering of war weight goes two ways. It isn't like the clan that includes a TH3 gets to search the MM for lower weighed clans, while they have no drawback, they themselves are lower weight and for good reason:

The clan that includes said TH is basically losing two attacks and giving up 3* near-mindlessly & what I'm not seeing, like at all, is some rationalization as to how that isn't somewhat balanced out as it is.

This isn't anywhere near the defenseless/lopsided base issue where one can give up a fairly easy 3*, but potentially bully at/near the top of a war map, this is trash from every perspective. Said TH isn't going to do much of anything, neither offensively, nor defensively. If you have a TH that gets 3* by an enemy TH3, you are doing likely doing the ~exact same thing your opponent is.

I also have not seen any reasonable support that the inclusion of said TH has a significant/strong causal relationship that benefits only the top end of a war map either. I bet you there is much more going on that caused the discrepancy at the top of the war map for the OP than solely the inclusion of some TH3 accounts at the bottom. It's definitely possible, but the MM is a complex beast is all.

I do agree that, at times, it certainly can influence at/near the top and even just a few times might be enough for people to rationalize using TH3 in their wars, but I also raise an eyebrow at it being even, say, 90% of all wars or something.

In my mind, this strategy benefits good, attacking clans, as you have less useful attacks to 3* enemy bases, yet, hopefully, get to face weaker overall enemy bases.

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Originally Posted by jonrdavies

Lunatic, if I wanted empathy the forums would be the last place I would come. ;)

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Ha! Agree!

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Originally Posted by MJPB

I would and could not support any plan that would disallow new players from being included in wars.

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The suggestion I've seen isn't that th3-5 can't war, it is that th3-5 wouldn't be able to war with th10 or th11. I don't think it is a great solution, though.

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Originally Posted by MJPB

War is a "side event" ... really?

The game is called Clash of Clans.

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It is an add on though the game was around for a couple years before war

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Originally Posted by jonrdavies

TH lvls need to carry some "threshold" of war weight.

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That is an engineering issue, not a roster engineering issue.

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Originally Posted by jonrdavies

This isn't true. We are in a Prep Day right now and the opposing clan stacked several defenseless bases at the bottom of their roster - and here are the results:

OUR TOP BASES
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/...psmiknzxqs.png

THEIR TOP BASES
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5dsupe0n.png

TROOPS ON THEIR TOP BASES
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/...pshemc14az.png

I am not advocating that TH3s not be allowed to war, but SC needs to factor in TH lvl to a greater extent when determining war weights otherwise this system will become more and more abused. We do not have any defenseless bases, but we do have 2 minimax and a hand-full of .5s out of 50 bases.

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2 minimaxes and a "handful" of .5's will put you squarely into the "imbalanced" category these days. Also, 50v50 wars are notoriously difficult to get even close to competitive. In forum goat herd we're only running about 50% of wars within 10 stars, with 25% more like 20* +/- for us. It's just really, really tough to get a balanced roster of 50 people, even if that's your goal.

deleted 10 chars

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Originally Posted by Redviper42

Sooo...you have no complaints since you had manipulative bases as well?

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Don't be so judgemental, it's really difficult to get together even 20-30 relatively even bases, trying to get 50 can be nearly impossible. His opponent in that war just took advantage of that fact to such an easy matchup.

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Originally Posted by 2222

That is an engineering issue, not a roster engineering issue.

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It would impact the top of the war map. I'm not saying it's that simple of a fix where suddenly clan wars will magically be perfectly matched, but it would prevent one side from running several bases a TH lvl above all of the opponents.

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Originally Posted by jonrdavies

It would impact the top of the war map. I'm not saying it's that simple of a fix where suddenly clan wars will magically be perfectly matched, but it would prevent one side from running several bases a TH lvl above all of the opponents.

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Adding a minimum weight to each hall (such as the max of a hall below as some have suggested) would greatly impact engineered accounts, but I don't see how it would impact roster engineering, which is throwing some junk th3s into the war to bring the overall weight down.

[QUOTE=Hyper54;9259613You are censoring a percentage of players from being able to war plus so what if people do this?[/QUOTE]

Whether or not everyone below TH7 should be excluded from wars is open to debate but I really see no valid reason why TH3's should be allowed into wars other than to mess with the matchmaking. If that player really wanted to, he could move up to TH4 in a matter of minutes.

Recently my clan was matched up with a couple of garbage TH11s up top. I'm a max 10, but their top guy has TH9 level defenses, plus 4 level 3 xbows, plus 2 level 2 infernos and a level 1 eagle artillery. His CC hold 25 troops. His troops are also awful, it's simply extremely rushed and my clan has a huge advantage thanks to that. Now if you were in charge of picking people for war, and needed one extra guy to have a 10v10 or any other matchup, do you pick that TH11 that sits up top and will be destroyed? (pretend its inactive, just like a filler TH7 or lower would be) Or do you pick a much lower one. Every single person here is going to pick the lower level guy. I'll do it every time given that choice. People know that's why they're doing it when they take the lower guy, and even if its for the "right" reasons, it still puts things in your own favor.

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Originally Posted by CanadianLegend

Whether or not everyone below TH7 should be excluded from wars is open to debate but I really see no valid reason why TH3's should be allowed into wars other than to mess with the matchmaking. If that player really wanted to, he could move up to TH4 in a matter of minutes.

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Are people arguing that everyone below th7 should be excluded from war or are they suggesting that very low hall levels should be excluded from warring with high hall levels? Those are two very different suggestions. I don't think I agree with either one, but one is reasonable and the other is not.

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

This isn't anywhere near the defenseless/lopsided base issue where one can give up a fairly easy 3*, but potentially bully at/near the top of a war map, this is trash from every perspective. Said TH isn't going to do much of anything, neither offensively, nor defensively. If you have a TH that gets 3* by an enemy TH3, you are doing likely doing the ~exact same thing your opponent is.

I also have not seen any reasonable support that the inclusion of said TH has a significant/strong causal relationship that benefits only the top end of a war map either. I bet you there is much more going on that caused the discrepancy at the top of the war map for the OP than solely the inclusion of some TH3 accounts at the bottom. It's definitely possible, but the MM is a complex beast is all.

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I war nonstop in 2 separate clans. I've conducted hundreds of war searches, and I spend a lot of time over in the Clan Wars subforum, as well. And I can tell you from my own personal experience, plus anecdotally from all other posts I've seen on the subject, that dumping low th's into your roster leads to a lopsided war roster. If anything, dumping low th's has more of an effect now than defenseless bases, as the low th's don't have any high offense to consider. And most clans in most wars are not hoping or expecting the bottom 1/3 or so of their lineup to do anything other than get roftstomped, so it's disingenuous to claim that taking out a bunch of th8's in an other th8-10 war and replacing them with th3's doesn't have a significant (usually positive) effect on the strength of your war opponent.

A good % of the people who come on here to complain about unfair war matchups, when you examine their roster, you'll see that they have a bunch of low th's at the bottom (and a 5 or 10 match winning streak of mostly easy matchups).

I started a thread the other day about ways to ensure fair and balanced wars, and dumping low th's into your war roster was pretty high on my list of things to avoid doing if you want competitive wars every time. Here's a link if you want to check it out: https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...mpetitive-wars

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Originally Posted by CanadianLegend

Whether or not everyone below TH7 should be excluded from wars is open to debate but I really see no valid reason why TH3's should be allowed into wars other than to mess with the matchmaking. If that player really wanted to, he could move up to TH4 in a matter of minutes.

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going along this line of thinking we should exclude everyone from war that is not a max th 11 as they can be max th 11 (with gems) in a matter of minutes! nice way to now keep most everyone from participating in war, thanks

Why worry about a single defenseless townhall 3? Our current war has 5 defenseless bases ranging from townhall 8 to 11. None are crazy scary but they did allow the opponent to double up on townhall 10s and 11s. It's a close war at 85-81 with a few attacks to go.

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

2 minimaxes and a "handful" of .5's will put you squarely into the "imbalanced" category these days. Also, 50v50 wars are notoriously difficult to get even close to competitive. In forum goat herd we're only running about 50% of wars within 10 stars, with 25% more like 20* +/- for us. It's just really, really tough to get a balanced roster of 50 people, even if that's your goal.

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Crazy matchup. How are the defenses for the opposing townhall 11s?

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Originally Posted by Hyper54

Are you serious? This complaint is just unnecessary! You are censoring a percentage of players from being able to war plus so what if people do this? Are you just upset that you lost one war to a clan who did this so what everyone loses wars. My clan does roster engineering and it allows us to do theoretical 5v5 or so wars. It's fun maybe you should try it...

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Hmmm... If I could, um, maybe know your clan name, maybe I could get you a temporary war ban... Maybe not, but worth a shot. :smirk:

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Originally Posted by MJPB

War is a "side event" ... really?

The game is called Clash of Clans.

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It is called clash of clans. It ISN'T called Clan war game. It was called clash of clans for YEARS before war was even an option. Of course clan wars is a side game or it would be mandatory. It's an option that a clan has, an option that should only be taken up when a clan has enough willing members to fill a war without playing dirty.

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

I war nonstop in 2 separate clans. I've conducted hundreds of war searches, and I spend a lot of time over in the Clan Wars subforum, as well. And I can tell you from my own personal experience, plus anecdotally from all other posts I've seen on the subject, that dumping low th's into your roster leads to a lopsided war roster.

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What exactly does it mean, "lopsided war roster?"

Are those a bad thing?

Does a, "lopsided war roster" result in unfair/unreasonable wars?

If so, how?

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

If anything, dumping low th's has more of an effect now than defenseless bases, as the low th's don't have any high offense to consider. And most clans in most wars are not hoping or expecting the bottom 1/3 or so of their lineup to do anything other than get roftstomped, so it's disingenuous to claim that taking out a bunch of th8's in an other th8-10 war and replacing them with th3's doesn't have a significant (usually positive) effect on the strength of your war opponent.

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I believe I stated the exact opposite of what you just accused me of.

I think you need to re-read what I actually said, not what you think I said

I find it very interesting you deleted the part of my comment which stated exactly said point.

As a matter of fact, can you explain that?

Further, and much more important, please explain how replacing those "th8's in an other th8-10 war and replacing them with th3's" doesn't significantly reduce your own clan's ability to attack and defend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

I started a thread the other day about ways to ensure fair and balanced wars, and dumping low th's into your war roster was pretty high on my list of things to avoid doing if you want competitive wars every time. Here's a link if you want to check it out: https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...mpetitive-wars

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Competitive being the operative word there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavePorky

It is called clash of clans. It ISN'T called Clan war game. It was called clash of clans for YEARS before war was even an option. Of course clan wars is a side game or it would be mandatory. It's an option that a clan has, an option that should only be taken up when a clan has enough willing members to fill a war without playing dirty.

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I don't even care if a clan uses a couple th3 filler accounts at the bottom if they need to in order to make a multiple of 5. It just shouldn't bring about a potential advantage in clan war matchmaking. If your clan can't fill 10 people to war, that's fine, but it should be to your detriment, not your advantage.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

As the title suggest, please do something about roster engineering. There should be no reason why th3 are allowed to be included in a war lineup consisting of th10 and 11. This drops their entire clan weight making for very uneven matches at the top. IMO, anything below th7 shouldn't be allowed to war. Yeah I'll probably receive some flak for that but it's my opinion. There should be no reason an account like this is even allowed to participate in wars.

http://i.imgur.com/mLhweyq.jpg

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Welcome to 2017! The Year of Engineers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

I don't even care if a clan uses a couple th3 filler accounts at the bottom if they need to in order to make a multiple of 5. It just shouldn't bring about a potential advantage in clan war matchmaking. If your clan can't fill 10 people to war, that's fine, but it should be to your detriment, not your advantage.

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I feel the same. An advantage for being ill equipped seems plain bonkers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

I don't even care if a clan uses a couple th3 filler accounts at the bottom if they need to in order to make a multiple of 5. It just shouldn't bring about a potential advantage in clan war matchmaking. If your clan can't fill 10 people to war, that's fine, but it should be to your detriment, not your advantage.

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Agreed completely.

In my opinion, matchmaking needs to be a 2 step process where offense and defense are used seperately.
Step one: find two similar clans based on defense levels alone for a potential match

Step 2: check offense levels of both clans to determine if its a fair match (IE no th11 offense vs a clan whose strongest base is a th10, the amount of bases with high offense levels are within a small range of each other on either side) and either start war if it is fair or continue searching if not.

Roster engineering wouldnt get much of an advantage and highly engineered clans would have trouble finding a match at all unless it was another highly engineered clan.

Still fail to see how including a TH3 is a significant advantage.

What bases are a TH3 going to 3*?

How hard is it to 3* a max TH3?

Including a TH3 definitely has drawbacks &, as stated before, seems much more akin to a gambit than anything else

I simply don't understand this mindset...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2222

So, what is the answer to stop roster engineering?

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The question that seems in need of addressing before that is: "Do we have a problem in the first place?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2222

So, what is the answer to stop roster engineering?

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As always the best solution is for the MM to correctly account for the value of the stuff. And it's always better to do this before adding in other checks and balances or weird rules.

If we are warring as TH8-TH10, then it makes zero difference whether the bottom enemy base is a weakish TH8 (50k) or a 1-cannon job (0.5k). In either case it will be 3*ed first hit. However, at the moment, the latter case skews the other clans average weight downwards.

The easiest solution is to remove the check of the overall average clan weight that was added in March. Comparing the averages is nonsense - extra strength in one place rarely really balances up weakness elsewhere. Failing that exclude some of the bottom of the map from the average check. OR apply minima - if my clans lowest offence is around 50k, then all enemy bases are treated as having defence perhaps 10% lower than that as a minimum - because anything lower becomes irrelevant.

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I also wonder whether it would give an advantage to lopsided bases who would have their high offense count for little in the match since they are at the "bottom."

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But the defenceless probably isn't at the "bottom" when it's doing the matchmaking - that is purely how it is displayed to us to help us pick targets. Ideally the offence and defence are completely separated, so that defenceless TH11 is actually at the top when processing the offence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

I don't even care if a clan uses a couple th3 filler accounts at the bottom if they need to in order to make a multiple of 5. It just shouldn't bring about a potential advantage in clan war matchmaking. If your clan can't fill 10 people to war, that's fine, but it should be to your detriment, not your advantage.

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Which is exactly where we were before they started trying to check the averages. In 2015 you'd see the odd TH3/4 whatever filler to make up the numbers on the enemy side matched to a TH8 or whatever on our side. But there would be no compensating strength elsewhere.
I also remember seeing a few times clans that had clearly stacked the bottom because they believed the MM did look at averages - it was a waste of time and the rest of the roster still matched about as evenly as normal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Still fail to see how including a TH3 is a significant advantage.

What bases are a TH3 going to 3*?

How hard is it to 3* a max TH3?

Including a TH3 definitely has drawbacks &, as stated before, seems much more akin to a gambit than anything else

I simply don't understand this mindset...

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The TH3 isn't an advantage, it's the effect it has on matching. If the last base on our side is a 50k defence weight TH8 and on the enemy side a 1k defenceless, then either will be 3*ed easily using low attackers and have no impact on the war. However if SC want the 2 total/average weights to match up, then the other clan needs an extra 50k defence weight somewhere else to get the total right. And when that's in the #1 spot and they are simply a TH higher then they have an advantage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Still fail to see how including a TH3 is a significant advantage.

What bases are a TH3 going to 3*?

How hard is it to 3* a max TH3?

Including a TH3 definitely has drawbacks &, as stated before, seems much more akin to a gambit than anything else

I simply don't understand this mindset...

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It's the extra high level town hall attacks they get from doing it. The th3 has no purpose other than to lower the overall weight of the clan. When you add enough or done correctly in a line up the advantage becomes significant. In my case, we're facing a th11&10th vs a th10&9 at the top. This is a 10 player war, if you're getting that kind of advantage I can only imagine how effective it becomes with more players.

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Originally Posted by DavePorky

Any sort of engineering is just the same as Olympic doping.

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thats modding, get your facts right

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

It's the extra high level town hall attacks they get from doing it. The th3 has no purpose other than to lower the overall weight of the clan. When you add enough or done correctly in a line up the advantage becomes significant. In my case, we're facing a th11&10th vs a th10&9 at the top. This is a 10 player war, if you're getting that kind of advantage I can only imagine how effective it becomes with more players.

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seriously?
it becomes LESS ADVANTAGEOUS the MORE the amount of people. think about it, the more people there are, the higher the weight of the entire clan, and the LOWER the chance of the th3 affecting it. with a higher clan weight, the clan matchup will be influenced by the outliers of a random th3.

with a lower matchup, the higher chance of that random th3 affecting MM, since it pulls the overall clan weight down with a larger effect.

imagine your clans weight is jus a bunch of data number, for eg mostly from 70-90k with 1-2 random th3s weighting 1k.

in a 10v10, you have 1,1,70,72,76,80,81,83,87,88. weight bases.

in a 20v20, you have 1,1,70,72,74,75,75,75,77,79,81,81,82,84,85,86,88,9 0,90,90.


as you can see, the effect of these th3s on larger wars is actually smaller, since the effect they have on the ENTIRE CLAN in larger wars are smaller.
intepret the data, simple math everyone can do.

Damm! Chris you got wrecked son, entertaining post but made my morning 👍🏻

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

As always the best solution is for the MM to correctly account for the value of the stuff. And it's always better to do this before adding in other checks and balances or weird rules.

If we are warring as TH8-TH10, then it makes zero difference whether the bottom enemy base is a weakish TH8 (50k) or a 1-cannon job (0.5k). In either case it will be 3*ed first hit. However, at the moment, the latter case skews the other clans average weight downwards.

The easiest solution is to remove the check of the overall average clan weight that was added in March. Comparing the averages is nonsense - extra strength in one place rarely really balances up weakness elsewhere. Failing that exclude some of the bottom of the map from the average check. OR apply minima - if my clans lowest offence is around 50k, then all enemy bases are treated as having defence perhaps 10% lower than that as a minimum - because anything lower becomes irrelevant.



But the defenceless probably isn't at the "bottom" when it's doing the matchmaking - that is purely how it is displayed to us to help us pick targets. Ideally the offence and defence are completely separated, so that defenceless TH11 is actually at the top when processing the offence.



Which is exactly where we were before they started trying to check the averages. In 2015 you'd see the odd TH3/4 whatever filler to make up the numbers on the enemy side matched to a TH8 or whatever on our side. But there would be no compensating strength elsewhere.
I also remember seeing a few times clans that had clearly stacked the bottom because they believed the MM did look at averages - it was a waste of time and the rest of the roster still matched about as evenly as normal.

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All very good points. I think at some point SC will just throw up their hands and make every base weigh at minimum what a max hall weighs one or two levels below. That isn't the best solution, but after many unsuccessful tweaks, I could see SC doing just that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

The TH3 isn't an advantage, it's the effect it has on matching. If the last base on our side is a 50k defence weight TH8 and on the enemy side a 1k defenceless, then either will be 3*ed easily using low attackers and have no impact on the war. However if SC want the 2 total/average weights to match up, then the other clan needs an extra 50k defence weight somewhere else to get the total right. And when that's in the #1 spot and they are simply a TH higher then they have an advantage

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This is exactly right and it is partially because of the ability to attack twice. The ability to attack twice means a clan doesn't need to use all of its attacks. A th8 or th3 are both getting 3 starred in every war and with 2 attacks per player it is easy to make up for not having two th8 attacks. So, clans go with the th3 rather than the th8 and they get the benefit of being stronger at higher hall levels.

I think I'd rather see nerf threads then all these threads complaining about engineering XD

They're playing within the parameters of the game, and they've out strategised you within those parameters. There is absolutely nothing stopping you building a roster the same way.

From what I can see whatever you gain in war with an engineered base is offset by what happens to you in multiplayer, where a heavily engineered base is easy to crush.

I like the variety of base building strategies this offers. It'd be a much more boring game if things were too strict in that area.

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Originally Posted by waxbaseee

thats modding, get your facts right

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Correct, doping is cheating like modding is cheating. They are against the rules. Engineering is like the Olympics allowing a short cut in a race and racers taking advantage of it. Some people would look down on the winners and some would say hey, the guy got a gold medal you were not smart for not taking advantage of the shortcut. It is up to SC to fix the shortcut.

TH 7 and below is way too much. Lower players have a right to be able to participate in war and attack as well. Maybe instead of making it TH7 and below, it can be made into TH4 or 3 and below, that's way better and fair as well.

As long as war matching is based on a set formula, it will always be possible to manipulate it to get the most favorable outcome for whomsoever bothers to spend time (and money perhaps).

There is nothing that sc can do about it. Too elaborate a mm system that takes care of too many variables will lead to unbearable delays in finding a match. It has to be balanced between too fine a match and the time it would take to find such a match.

Besides, if the number of clans searching for war is declining, the problem gets compounded.

To sc's credit, the current matchmaker is pretty good 90% of the time imo.

I have a TH3 that almost has 300 war stars. I want to try to get the war hero achievement with. Its very slow because about 50% of the wars, there's not even a base I an pick up stars on.

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Originally Posted by SmurfKick

You're going to cherry pick comments and of course you'll find absolutisms that don't reflect reality.

Is engineering a strategy? Yes.
Does it automatically equal clan wins in war? No.

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Not cherry picking anything. Didn't quote anyone. In general, it's a common argument that pro-engineers use to discredit the complaint. Meanwhile, they constantly look for ways to improve their engineered roster.

No, it's not a guaranteed win. Although a strawman argument, it's rather flat to defend engineering. Engineered rosters exploit a weakness in the matchmaking algorithm to give them a much higher probability of favorable matches and thus a much higher probability of wins. No one can argue that fact. Actions and the now developed strategies speak louder than words.

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Originally Posted by patrickpatrick

As long as war matching is based on a set formula, it will always be possible to manipulate it to get the most favorable outcome for whomsoever bothers to spend time (and money perhaps).

There is nothing that sc can do about it. Too elaborate a mm system that takes care of too many variables will lead to unbearable delays in finding a match. It has to be balanced between too fine a match and the time it would take to find such a match.

Besides, if the number of clans searching for war is declining, the problem gets compounded.

To sc's credit, the current matchmaker is pretty good 90% of the time imo.

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I'm not saying SC should do this, but if SC made every base weigh at minimum what a max base one hall below it weighs, that would take care of engineered accounts other than .5s. For roster engineering, though, I'm not sure there is such a quick fix.

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

The TH3 isn't an advantage, it's the effect it has on matching. If the last base on our side is a 50k defence weight TH8 and on the enemy side a 1k defenceless, then either will be 3*ed easily using low attackers and have no impact on the war. However if SC want the 2 total/average weights to match up, then the other clan needs an extra 50k defence weight somewhere else to get the total right. And when that's in the #1 spot and they are simply a TH higher then they have an advantage

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You are introducing the concept of defenseless TH, which complicates the issue unnecessarily. I don't understand that.

Further, there are many questionable things about your statement.

Why do you assume that a 50k weight TH8 will, "have no impact on war?"
Why are you assuming that the difficulty in 3* a 50K TH8 war base is the equivalent of a TH3?

Most importantly, please walk me through how you can conclude that the #1 spot is where this difference in weight goes.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

It's the extra high level town hall attacks they get from doing it.

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Extra attacks? Really??

You actually are shorthanded in attacks, as you need to make up for 2 "wasted" attacks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

The th3 has no purpose other than to lower the overall weight of the clan.

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Maybe so, but that comes at a cost that seemingly isn't being considered

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

When you add enough or done correctly in a line up the advantage becomes significant.

In my case, we're facing a th11&10th vs a th10&9 at the top. This is a 10 player war, if you're getting that kind of advantage I can only imagine how effective it becomes with more players.

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Despite my previous comments, I do understand how things can get really interesting in small wars, like a 10-man war.

One of the more outrageous example I have ever heard was a clan who had five max TH11s and then five TH3s. That's very eyebrow raising to me, but, fortunately, I've only heard of one so example

And while it likely is "balanced," that clearly is hitting an extreme and extremes can often be problematic

But that strikes me as a different issue than the way things are being described in this thread. A TH3 isn't some magical TH that simply by its mere inclusion causes wars to patently be unfair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2222

This is exactly right and it is partially because of the ability to attack twice. The ability to attack twice means a clan doesn't need to use all of its attacks. A th8 or th3 are both getting 3 starred in every war and with 2 attacks per player it is easy to make up for not having two th8 attacks. So, clans go with the th3 rather than the th8 and they get the benefit of being stronger at higher hall levels.

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Multiple assumptions are being used here which are confusing to say the least.

The ability to attack twice means more opportunities to gain stars or % destruction on your opponent or, in the case of the war already being won, perhaps loot or practice. If a clan doesn't need to use all of it's attacks to win the war, that's fine, but that's not what two attacks ultimately means.

And a TH8 is not necessarily, "getting 3 starred in every war" as you are assuming that the wars taking place in CoC are with clans of running dominantly TH9+ townhalls. That isn't always the case.

Also, why did you pick a TH8? Picking a TH8 for your example seems to fit a biased agenda. Why not another, say, TH9 in a clan that runs primarily TH9s? That could be a legitimate example where someone gives something up to gain an edge elsewhere. Should that be punished?

Lastly, you still haven't addressed the fact that carrying a TH3 in your war lineup comes with a real drawback. Yes, somewhere on the war map you might have an edge, but my question to you then becomes: why shouldn't you? You are including a TH3, that won't 3* anything, but will get 3* by just about anything...

You are missing a lot here lunatic and created some arguments that no one is even making. In the end, in our wars, we don't need two more th8 attacks. If we put a th3 at the bottom rather than a th8, we don't notice the 2 missing th8 attacks. If it gives us an advantage higher up, it is worth it. By the way, we don't actually do this. I'm just saying I understand why it is done.

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Originally Posted by 2222

You are missing a lot here lunatic and created some arguments that no one is even making. In the end, in our wars, we don't need two more th8 attacks. If we put a th3 at the bottom rather than a th8, we don't notice the 2 missing th8 attacks. If it gives us an advantage higher up, it is worth it. By the way, we don't actually do this. I'm just saying I understand why it is done.

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I'm not sure I've made much of an argument, I'm simply asking questions and challenging certain positions/comments that are being made. I also don't believe I'm missing much of anything, but I welcome you to point out where I'm not understanding, for I very much do want to understand

I do understand the point you have just made, but I don't understand how that translates into wars being unfair by the inclusion of a TH3 in the lineup, which seems to be the overall theme of this thread

Bottom of the war map is nothing, if you lose two or even four attacks down low, and squeeze in a max def base up top you have an advantage. How many attacks will they need to do to get equal % on your max eleven? The 11vs10 you'll get at least one three star, and a big %2. That's huge considering ten vs elevn 2* are not easy on proper bases. So right there with that one guys attack, your tens need to three another high ten, and get high % on another, as well as two star the eleven.

Losing two super low attacks doesn't mean jack in this situation, you just put all the pressure on their top to perform at a similar level to your #1. If they have another max royal ten in their lineup, he now gets to hit his equal or (usually) lesser counterpart. If your top guy didn't perform well on their eleven, and your second guy had to clean it up, now they both need their second attacks to be flawless in order to keep the war close.

Roster engineering gives whoever's doing it a lot of breathing room up top, while tightening the chocker on the enemy. There's a ton of people who crack when under pressure and mess up. As much as an advantage it is skill wise, its doubly an advantage as a mind game.

Probably the only way to nullify this is to not include the bottom few bases Into the war weight, but then you introduce defenseless bases as the next step engineers will take (again). It's really just a loop, and changing it will only push the loop another direction.

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

I'm not sure I've made much of an argument, I'm simply asking questions and challenging certain positions/comments that are being made. I also don't believe I'm missing much of anything, but I welcome you to point out where I'm not understanding, for I very much do want to understand

I do understand the point you have just made, but I don't understand how that translates into wars being unfair by the inclusion of a TH3 in the lineup, which seems to be the overall theme of this thread

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The overall theme is the concept of roster engineering for an unfair advantage. This thread started as a mere symptom of the problem.

All the rest of this is just noise. If it didn't work, the problem wouldn't be rampant.

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Not to derail the thread too much, but what benefit do you believe this gives you?

Very curious here.

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It changes the war time which in turn limits certain time zones from the pool of potential opponents. 6-10 pst isn't called the hours of death for nothing.

You've never thrown in a low level th to fill out a war roster. Say you have 24 green for war do you put 4 people out or just toss in a mini account whose attacks don't matter. Now when they are th11 with no defenses yes I see that as a problem but not this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adevati

The overall theme is the concept of roster engineering for an unfair advantage. This thread started as a mere symptom of the problem.

All the rest of this is just noise. If it didn't work, the problem wouldn't be rampant.

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Has it been established there is an actual problem?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krsatjhook

It changes the war time which in turn limits certain time zones from the pool of potential opponents. 6-10 pst isn't called the hours of death for nothing.

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LOL, really? I guess I'm out of it, as I've never heard that before. And WTH am I doing, as I always start our wars at that time! :) Thanks for the reply

deleted 10 chars

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Originally Posted by Hyper54

Then how come your original post was a big screenshot of a Th3? If Your real concern is war mismatches up top then maybe I'm on your side but at least make that clear.

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He did make that clear...it just wasn't clear to you. Not his problem, it's yours. Try reading comprehension...it's free.

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Originally Posted by SmurfKick

So what exactly is your point then? To chime in like everyone else and cry about how unfair engineering is and it's cheating and how SuperCell needs to remove it from war match-making? It's a strategy. It's one that requires effort. You can't mindlessly farm and assign builder to every shiny thing SC throws in the pile. Oddly - at least in my experience - engineering isn't that difficult. Just requires some gumption. And thought.

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It also a strategy that requires willingness to deliberately take advantage of a flaw in the game code to gain an essentially unfair advantage in war.
No, it isn't that difficult. Just requires that you act in a way that is not in the spirit of fair play, only slightly dishonest, and ethically challenged. But then you really haven't thought that far, have you?

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Originally Posted by 2222

The suggestion I've seen isn't that th3-5 can't war, it is that th3-5 wouldn't be able to war with th10 or th11. I don't think it is a great solution, though.

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Either option is ridiculous. While lower THs in your clan are at war, your upper THs are sitting idle and vice versa.

The only way to guarantee a perfect match is in arranged wars (FC wars) where both sides pick and choose bases of equal weight to war with.

I brought up the fact in the past that opponents of similar war weight can still be significantly mismatched if one has high level heroes and the other low level heroes.

The idea of excluding people from war is quite simply bad. If lower THs cannot be part of wars, player retention will be impacted.

I keep hearing people shout out that engineering is cheating or unfair. Some even call for those who engineer to be banned along the same lines as modders.

It's too easy to come on this forum and complain about unfair matchups. I did it myself. I've since then been adapting to the situation as well as some other Clashers in my clan and we've significantly improved our win rate. Yes we get matched against some engineering clans but now we have adapted and are winning more often than not.

I see why your complaining, i would too cmon, thats a tough looking th3
Be sure to crush those builder huts 99%is a waste

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Originally Posted by Billius

I'm reluctant to have too many clan or war rules in the game but I am going to come down on the side of eliminating some of these blatant situations like a TH3 in a TH11 war.
It adds no real value to the war competitiveness and makes matchmaking more of a farce.

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So where is the cut-off Billius? Is it at TH3, 4, 5? We have active TH3,4,5,6,7 in our wars and they deserve to be included.

I can just see the next CoC commercial ... come play C0C but wait, you can't war until you are at least a TH9. Exclusion is a ridiculous idea.

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Originally Posted by Hyper54

Are you serious? This complaint is just unnecessary! You are censoring a percentage of players from being able to war plus so what if people do this? Are you just upset that you lost one war to a clan who did this so what everyone loses wars. My clan does roster engineering and it allows us to do theoretical 5v5 or so wars. It's fun maybe you should try it...

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It seems to me that for both you and him, winning in war is important. He does not want your th3, which you admitted you have 3 of them, because he wants a better chance in winning. And you do not want your th3 from being stopped in war, because you want to win, otherwise, you would not have them.

The point is you are exactly in the same position: you want to win and you have three th3 accounts and you do not want them to be limited. Therefore, his concerns have enough as much validity as yours.

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Originally Posted by DavePorky

It is called clash of clans. It ISN'T called Clan war game. It was called clash of clans for YEARS before war was even an option. Of course clan wars is a side game or it would be mandatory. It's an option that a clan has, an option that should only be taken up when a clan has enough willing members to fill a war without playing dirty.

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Clash - meet and come into violent conflict ... a violent confrontation

Sure seems to me like the game's intent is for Clans to war against each other. Those who do not want to war (for one reason or another) simply excuse themselves and opt out. Clan wars is not a side game of CoC.

As for playing dirty, have you not heard that all is fair in love and war. As long as a player abides by the TOS, that person is playing fair.

Does SC need to work on clan war matchmaking, YES and I'm already on the record saying that in many of my posts.

Getting better war matches should not come at the cost of exclusion of a subset of Clashers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmurfKick

So what exactly is your point then? To chime in like everyone else and cry about how unfair engineering is and it's cheating and how SuperCell needs to remove it from war match-making? It's a strategy. It's one that requires effort. You can't mindlessly farm and assign builder to every shiny thing SC throws in the pile. Oddly - at least in my experience - engineering isn't that difficult. Just requires some gumption. And thought.

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Yes, correct the matchmaking to remove the strategy. It is an exploit.

No difference than TH sniping was. It was legal. It was the most effective farming strategy. It exploited a poorly designed system. SC ruled it an abomination and removed it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJPB

Clan wars is not a side game of CoC.

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Except it is. SC has stated such.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adevati

Except it is. SC has stated such.

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Eliminate clan wars and see what you are left with.

Our war match-up was 8 maxed th11's to our 3, and their 7 maxed th10's to our 3. Most of those bases were manufactured, and I'm not sure how that was fair, but we took our butt beating kind of well. I "get it" it's part of the game, but there has to be a happy medium for all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozzone

Our war match-up was 8 maxed th11's to our 3, and their 7 maxed th10's to our 3. Most of those bases were manufactured, and I'm not sure how that was fair, but we took our butt beating kind of well. I "get it" it's part of the game, but there has to be a happy medium for all.

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You'll have to provide more details. You mention their maxed TH11s and 10s but then you say they were manufactured (I suspect you meant to say engineered or lopsided).

We have given in and are putting three low lvl ths in for war matchmaking. Our 4 th 8s this war don't even have 1 good base to practice on. It's pathetic it has come to this. I've always thought eliminating the th 8s would help but that doesn't seem fair. Th 8s should have a place in war after all.

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Originally Posted by Adevati

...It is an exploit....

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noun
ˈɛksplɔɪt/

• 1.
  ...
• 2.
  a software tool designed to take advantage of a flaw in a computer system, typically for malicious purposes such as installing malware.

Engineering is not an exploit, as it is not an external piece of software. xMod was an exploit. Perhaps engineering isn't fair in your eyes, but that does not make it an exploit. At least use terminology correctly.

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Originally Posted by MJPB

Eliminate clan wars and see what you are left with.

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The base of a game that revolutionized mobile gaming.

Regardless, no one is asking for clan wars to be removed, just corrected to eliminate a loophole. If people really have to quit the game because they can't get easier matchups, then good riddance.

Solution, join max th11 wars.

Not a max th11? That's your problem, then.

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Originally Posted by AufDenBergen

noun
ˈɛksplɔɪt/

• 1.
  ...
• 2.
  a software tool designed to take advantage of a flaw in a computer system, typically for malicious purposes such as installing malware.

Engineering is not an exploit, as it is not an external piece of software. xMod was an exploit. Perhaps engineering isn't fair in your eyes, but that does not make it an exploit. At least use terminology correctly.

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Thank you for that definition of the noun "exploit". Please look up the verb "exploit".

Glad I could help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adevati

The base of a game that revolutionized mobile gaming.

Regardless, no one is asking for clan wars to be removed, just corrected to eliminate a loophole. If people really have to quit the game because they can't get easier matchups, then good riddance.

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Correcting matchmaking is obvious and as I said in a previous post, I'm on record asking for that. The problem I have with some posts regarding this issue is that they refer to those who engineer their base as cheaters. Another problem I have is when people post that a subset of players should be excluded.

If the answer was easy, it would already have been implemented. SC keeps changing the formula so as to keep us guessing.

My solution to this issue is simple, max out my heroes and work on 3 star attack strategies. As TH9s, 10s, and 11s, you cannot expect to win wars without high level heroes and solid attack strategies.

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Originally Posted by kevs926

Solution, join max th11 wars.

Not a max th11? That's your problem, then.

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Some clans engineer their roster to only include TH11s. It's a valid way of approaching the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adevati

Thank you for that definition of the noun "exploit". Please look up the verb "exploit".

Glad I could help.

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Well, you did use it as a noun... but that's a moot point I guess

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Originally Posted by Tom831

Well, you did use it as a noun... but that's a moot point I guess

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Usually when people use grammar corrections and semantics arguments, they have run out of valid points to make.

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Originally Posted by Tom831

Well, you did use it as a noun... but that's a moot point I guess

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Did you mean moo point ?

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Originally Posted by LittleMoon

Did you mean moo point ?

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Thank you, it's like a cows opinion, it don't matter. It's moo

When looking up the meaning of fair play something that comes up is sportmanship. One example of poor sportsmanship is breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage. Interesting thought is that engineered clan don't break the rules and therefor would be considered a part of good sportsmanship or fair play.
Another interesting not is that poor sportsmanship or unfair play is making excuses for defeat or unfavorable conditions. Makes it seem that a lot of pro engineers on the forums are fair play because they play within the rules while a lot of people who complain about engineers display poor sportsmanship or unfair play.
It does make for an interesting twist.

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Originally Posted by Tom831

Thank you, it's like a cows opinion, it don't matter. It's moo

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Yesssssss. You're my favorite forum user and person in the world right now :D
just now I saw that episode and could not resist.

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Originally Posted by Adevati

Yes, correct the matchmaking to remove the strategy. It is an exploit.

No difference than TH sniping was. It was legal. It was the most effective farming strategy. It exploited a poorly designed system. SC ruled it an abomination and removed it.

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Please explain how it is an exploit. What is the exact problem that needs to be solved by including a TH3 in war?

If SC listen to you, I'll get a heart attack... We're using 5 lower bases ever since our clan was established. 100+ wins and 19 loses, pretty cool huh? It's kind of a strategy, nothing's wrong here.