New year 2017... The bitter truth about engineering. part2

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Originally Posted by Aspex

You've been repeatedly told that engineering is not cheating. Mods have posted to say that it is not cheating. You complained previously that I keep mentioning the ToS, well I have to do so to indisputably refute the idiocy that engineering is cheating. It isn't.

And your repeated sly implications that anyone arguing the opposite side to you must be a low, underhand cowardly engineer of a player is getting old.

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This. He's even equating it to the American Way, which is not only unwarranted and insulting, but risible given where SuperCell is ACTUALLY BASED.

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

i feel like its the same old tango but you still have to answer the following question if you wanna shout cheat.

question 1 - what defence to offence ratio is cheating? Ratio is simply defence clan weight dividend by offence clan weight.
question 2 - why?
question 3 - what is your clans defence to offence ratio? Estimate.
question 4 - how do you know your defence to offence ratio isnt cheating?

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Viking, you are asking for two quantitative measures on a topic that is almost entirely qualitative, given that both sides are utterly convinced of their own truths, and can offer little other than anecdotal evidence given that SuperCell (IMO correctly) is secretive about its MM algorithm. It's no wonder folks refuse to engage with you by pulling thresholds and category definitions out of their... er... the sky.

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Originally Posted by SupremeCleave

Dont throw this back at me lol. Your post exactly suggested that. I mean what else could you be saying when you missed the "good ol" days of th10".

To me it sounded exactly like you missed the days of th10 defensive imbalance. Perhaps you could rephrase it better?

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I miss the days of town hall 10's defending against th10's, th9's defending against th9's, and real th8's defending real th8's... those almost dont exist anymore. Everything is a cleanfest. All i see are 9.5's and 10.5's cleaning 10's and 9's. Theres no "hand to hand" combat anymore. Nobody has to "pull their weight" in a clan anymore. I dont like the style of play thats being created now. All the engineering and .5's is rampant with nobody having any intent to maxing out. Only a couple max out in the clan to protect against a perfect war, the rest of the roster is engineered. It's ripping the base design right out of these th9's. Forget th8, th8 is DEAD. Th9 is next. All the engineering is snowballing to making other people engineer that dont even really want to. WHO DOESN'T WANT AN EAGLE OR INFERNOS PROTECTING THEIR BASE?? So it's creating this whole dimension that doesnt need to exist. The only logical explanation for it, is it created a matchup advantage in war. The other explanation is people are afraid to compete at the highest level. I dont get it. I never will.

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Originally Posted by AFrostyBlaze

that's a pretty ridiculous claim. even our weaker th9s 3 star th9s that neglect to build their xbows. xbows are just a super strong defensive tool i don't see the point of not building them after 10/10 heroes.

without xbows you basically put a sign on your base that says come 3 star me

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Originally Posted by topbtm

Ok, I apologize for not reading it properly. Note however, most weight is added when you drop the xbow, not when you upgrade it to lvl 2 or 3.

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I think--with only anecdotal evidence, ironically, given my last post--that if you're going to drop xbows you should max them as fast as possible. xbow1 is a peashooter that cannot even inconvenience a queen walk, in terms of drawing an early special or a rescue rage; if xbow3 is barely heavier then it should be a priority upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

your tapdancing, if you cant answer the 4 questions you cant point a finger with credibility. Please answer the 4 questions. A maxer clan with all maxed bases lets say has a ratio of 1, and a clan with all .5 has a ratio of 0.75, and a clan with offence 2 th above defence has a ratio of lets say for simplicity 0.5.

at what ratio does the clan become cheats? 0.9; 0.85, 0.75; 0.65 ????

and what level is your clan at?

and most important, why is ratio X cheating, and why is your ratio not cheating? After all a clan with a ratio of 1.15 could say your cheating, surely?

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I dont know how the numbers work. My clan is NOT cheating. We max (except everyone in th9 cuz fully maxing is difficult hero-wise without potentially burning out) because it makes the transition for the next town hall easier. Before you go to th10, if you dont max out your walls, it becomes difficult to finish them because of the loot penalty AND how expensive everything else is, so it makes sense to max your walls while the loot is easier. But when we go to the next town hall, we eventually purchase EVERYTHING from the shop. That's how the game was designed. And we farm and we upgrade it so we can be the best we can be, ya know, like in the army. I sat out for a month when i became th10. I could spent a couple hundred dollars to gem and get in the action right away, but I didnt. I did my camps, spells, lab, got a couple troops, and then got my fernos to level 2 when I came back. I did it with good intention. I didnt intentionally not purchase things, require all my clanmates to do the same (which by the way, seems a lil self-centered to me). We did this so we can compete AND defend ourselves at the sametime. We werent looking for mismatches, just wanted fair wars. Amd we didnt wanna clean all th9's for easy victory either. I cant say the same for these other clans, especially when you go to the recruitment section of this forum...... OH-BOY

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Originally Posted by posthoc

This. He's even equating it to the American Way, which is not only unwarranted and insulting, but risible given where SuperCell is ACTUALLY BASED.



Viking, you are asking for two quantitative measures on a topic that is almost entirely qualitative, given that both sides are utterly convinced of their own truths, and can offer little other than anecdotal evidence given that SuperCell (IMO correctly) is secretive about its MM algorithm. It's no wonder folks refuse to engage with you by pulling thresholds and category definitions out of their... er... the sky.

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its very easy to quantify, defence weights can be read, offence weights can be easily estimated, calculated or even received from the internet. Even if you dont want to go to the trouble, one could theories what the ratios should be.

the lack of engagement comes from the truth that there is no specific cutoff that is anything but aubitrary, and therefore claims of cheat are nonsense, and further that its a relative point, so as one could shout cheat, another could shout cheat of you.

the lack of desire to engage in these questions, is because people realise the claims to not stack up under proper assessment using logic instead of emotion, subjectivity, anecdote and bias.

I think when people get into the thinking around this topic, they will realise should of cheat are based on aubitrary reference points, drawn at their toes, or perhaps you are right and they wont. Im an optimist.

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

your tapdancing, if you cant answer the 4 questions you cant point a finger with credibility. Please answer the 4 questions. A maxer clan with all maxed bases lets say has a ratio of 1, and a clan with all .5 has a ratio of 0.75, and a clan with offence 2 th above defence has a ratio of lets say for simplicity 0.5.

at what ratio does the clan become cheats? 0.9; 0.85, 0.75; 0.65 ????

and what level is your clan at?

and most important, why is ratio X cheating, and why is your ratio not cheating? After all a clan with a ratio of 1.15 could say your cheating, surely?

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At the risk of sounding contrarian, um, how could you be above a 1 on that scale? :) All these decimals are weird, anyway. As for my answer, it would 3.14159265358979. And yes, I do have that memorized...

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Originally Posted by posthoc

This. He's even equating it to the American Way, which is not only unwarranted and insulting, but risible given where SuperCell is ACTUALLY BASED.

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We all know that Finland is just a Soviet Puppet State. Wait, the cold war is over? My bad.

If I get banned by somebody named "ilkka", don't be suprised...

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

I dont know how the numbers work. My clan is NOT cheating. We max (except everyone in th9 cuz fully maxing is difficult hero-wise without potentially burning out) because it makes the transition for the next town hall easier. Before you go to th10, if you dont max out your walls, it becomes difficult to finish them because of the loot penalty AND how expensive everything else is, so it makes sense to max your walls while the loot is easier. But when we go to the next town hall, we eventually purchase EVERYTHING from the shop. That's how the game was designed. And we farm and we upgrade it so we can be the best we can be, ya know, like in the army. I sat out for a month when i became th10. I could spent a couple hundred dollars to gem and get in the action right away, but I didnt. I did my camps, spells, lab, got a couple troops, and then got my fernos to level 2 when I came back. I did it with good intention. I didnt intentionally not purchase things, require all my clanmates to do the same (which by the way, seems a lil self-centered to me). We did this so we can compete AND defend ourselves at the sametime. We werent looking for mismatches, just wanted fair wars. Amd we didnt wanna clean all th9's for easy victory either. I cant say the same for these other clans, especially when you go to the recruitment section of this forum...... OH-BOY

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please see my four earlier questions, im going to jump out the window his time if you daddylindo lambada and you dont answer them. Granted im on the first floor, but its snowint and cold outside.

at least give them a go???????

what ratio is cheating?

why?

what ratio is your clan?

how can you he sure this ratio if not cheating?

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

your tapdancing, if you cant answer the 4 questions you cant point a finger with credibility. Please answer the 4 questions. A maxer clan with all maxed bases lets say has a ratio of 1, and a clan with all .5 has a ratio of 0.75, and a clan with offence 2 th above defence has a ratio of lets say for simplicity 0.5.

at what ratio does the clan become cheats? 0.9; 0.85, 0.75; 0.65 ????

and what level is your clan at?

and most important, why is ratio X cheating, and why is your ratio not cheating? After all a clan with a ratio of 1.15 could say your cheating, surely?

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Viking I miss your old "who should have an advantage and why" thread...

In that thread common ground was achieved between people who support engineering and those opposed to it. This thread and most engineering/MM is just another typical thread with the same old arguments.

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

At the risk of sounding contrarian, um, how could you be above a 1 on that scale? :) All these decimals are weird, anyway. As for my answer, it would 3.14159265358979. And yes, I do have that memorized...

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Many clans are above 1, they full of Noob premmies with shiny XBOWS and lev 2 hogs as main war troop.

so a rushed Noob th 9 may have defence to offence ratio of 1,2 with weigh of a mig th9, but troops of a th7 or 8.

3.141 therefore is basicaly an offencless clan, and im appalled that you would accuse them of cheating, unless they have advanced info of an extreme machmaker switch.

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Originally Posted by posthoc

Viking, you are asking for two quantitative measures on a topic that is almost entirely qualitative, given that both sides are utterly convinced of their own truths, and can offer little other than anecdotal evidence given that SuperCell (IMO correctly) is secretive about its MM algorithm. It's no wonder folks refuse to engage with you by pulling thresholds and category definitions out of their... er... the sky.

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I don't see how his example is out of line. And, if anything, his numbers don't seem too far off to me. But it doesn't matter if they are far off or not, it's really easy to figure out that a clan that's 1/2 .5's would be a .875 on his scale, and it should be possible for an anti-engineer to decide upon a number on that scale that pushes somebody into "full on engineer territory", wherever that is.

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

I miss the days of town hall 10's defending against th10's, th9's defending against th9's, and real th8's defending real th8's... those almost dont exist anymore. Everything is a cleanfest. All i see are 9.5's and 10.5's cleaning 10's and 9's. Theres no "hand to hand" combat anymore. Nobody has to "pull their weight" in a clan anymore. I dont like the style of play thats being created now. All the engineering and .5's is rampant with nobody having any intent to maxing out. Only a couple max out in the clan to protect against a perfect war, the rest of the roster is engineered. It's ripping the base design right out of these th9's. Forget th8, th8 is DEAD. Th9 is next. All the engineering is snowballing to making other people engineer that dont even really want to. WHO DOESN'T WANT AN EAGLE OR INFERNOS PROTECTING THEIR BASE?? So it's creating this whole dimension that doesnt need to exist. The only logical explanation for it, is it created a matchup advantage in war. The other explanation is people are afraid to compete at the highest level. I dont get it. I never will.

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Bring a full th8, or th9, or th10 to my clan and you'll get to see some really, really even matches. Our current war, in particular, is just ridiculously even on paper. You must be proficient with valks to war, but if you just want to check out the war lineups and view war attacks then it won't matter. Just pm if you want.