How to get Fair and Competitive Wars, and Avoid Engineered Clans

I saw a post by someone with a non engineered clan and an 80+ win streak. He said his clan's war composition was 2 TH11, 2 TH10, and 6 TH9, and they were very organized and very experienced. He said they match engineered clans all the time, who can't 3 star their TH11, and that they manage to 3 star most or all of the other side.

Are there any principles from this anecdote that we can generalize? We kind of already know that having strong 11s on top helps a lot. We kind of already know that smaller wars with good players are more successful than bigger wars with average players or with a mix of player ability. We kind of already know that smaller wars have fewer mismatches due to the larger number of clans engaging in them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littledoctor

I saw a post by someone with a non engineered clan and an 80+ win streak. He said his clan's war composition was 2 TH11, 2 TH10, and 6 TH9, and they were very organized and very experienced. He said they match engineered clans all the time, who can't 3 star their TH11, and that they manage to 3 star most or all of the other side.

Are there any principles from this anecdote that we can generalize? We kind of already know that having strong 11s on top helps a lot. We kind of already know that smaller wars with good players are more successful than bigger wars with average players or with a mix of player ability. We kind of already know that smaller wars have fewer mismatches due to the larger number of clans engaging in them.

---

And when they match an engineered clan that also has two max th11s up top and several max offense th11s down low, they can only beat the engineered clan if they are so much better that they can do in 4 attacks what the enemy can't do with 10+ th11 max attacks. That is the part that is not even. It is unreasonable to expect a matchmaker that is exactly even, but I support SC continuing to work on improvements to avoid that uneven match where one side gets 10 th11 attacks on the top two bases and the other clan gets only 4.

We've tried minimizing our th range, using and not using fodder bases, rain dances, voodoo, and every combination possible. Nothing makes a noticeable difference these days.

Fact is, that we face sandbaggers now and then. The frequency at with we match them is also increasing as there are more and more of them popping up. Spawning like bunnies.

Even global has caught on. There you can find new players on their way to becoming future sandbaggers, and promoting "engineering" all the while

I really hope this massive update fixes the war scene.

#WeWantFairPlay

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littledoctor

I saw a post by someone with a non engineered clan and an 80+ win streak. He said his clan's war composition was 2 TH11, 2 TH10, and 6 TH9, and they were very organized and very experienced. He said they match engineered clans all the time, who can't 3 star their TH11, and that they manage to 3 star most or all of the other side.

Are there any principles from this anecdote that we can generalize? We kind of already know that having strong 11s on top helps a lot. We kind of already know that smaller wars with good players are more successful than bigger wars with average players or with a mix of player ability. We kind of already know that smaller wars have fewer mismatches due to the larger number of clans engaging in them.

---

Citing large win streaks for small maxer clans running 10v10 wars does not provide any useful anecdotes and generalizations aside from this: the maxer approach to roster design still provides an advantage in MM. If a clan running a roster of 4/6/15 spins with max 11s, heavy high hero 10s, and 6-8 max 30/30 9s and 5 20/20+ 9s with level 1-2 xbows at the bottom they will pull in a favorable matchup more often than not.

What the clan you are referring to does is a form of roster engineering and in most cases if they are a skilled bunch (especially at TH11) a clan running this lineup will pair with less skilled opponents because the talent typically migrates to larger clans, networks, and wars. Wars might appear fair on paper, but are anything but based on skill level.

Not to take anything away from the impressive streak, but it should be qualified appropriately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skrags

I don't disagree with anything you've posted Casimir, but I think it's worth while just taking a step back and evaluating the context of this thread.
While the thread was started in late December, it followed months of community feedback going back to the summer of 2016.
Lots of successful engineers also contributed.
The point is, it was never meant to be "The Ultimate Guide", like some clickbait Youtube video, but just a reference point for members of the clash community that were becoming increasingly frustrated with their war match ups.

Hopefully, somewhere , somehow, it may have helped some clans! It's not a magic wand however!
In a perfect world (imo) there would be no need for this thread, as the MM would be doing it's job properly, but we know it isn't easy.

I totally agree, that to be of use, the thread does need to evolve and be updated.

p.s. I'd also add to your list key TH11 Offence troops!:thumbsup:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CasimirEffect

I mentioned the dangers of providing blanket statements, or a list of bullet points, covering "correct or ideal roster compositions," as is the purpose of this thread, a while back. People are ingenious and given enough time and a template, those interested will find a way to exploit any system and common roster design philosophy.

Mossack, you might need to constantly update your thread based on our experiences over the past months to avoid walking people into a trap...

So after much discussion, our clan took much of the advice provided in this thread and rid itself of all lopsided bases (ALL!). For some time we did see a marked improvement in matchups, but the engineering learning curve is catching up to October updates and people are now designing rosters which apparently match with clans like ours (5 TH11, 5 TH10, 15 TH9s, +/-1-2 in any category given upgrades and such) in less than 25 minutes. For the last 2-3 weeks we have seen engineered rosters at at least twice per week while restricting search time, babysitting our roster, keeping reasonable weight distribution (TH9 w/ infernos - max TH11). While numbers are always slightly different in each war there is one consistency: our opponent is able to trade lower weight at the bottom of their roster for addition Warden, Eagles, infernos, and often 9.5s up top. The additional full TH11s are the ONLY asset which tips the scales and frustrates our group (myself included), all other differences can be managed and I accept as variance. We have seen additional TH11(s) on the enemy side in all 8 of our last wars despite varying our TH11 count from 2-5 in an attempt to fix.

My point remains from last month: Until SC has a MM algorithm that accurately weighs the impact 2 or more additional TH11 defenses and 2x the attacks has on the outcome of any given war (skill being more or less equal) any post like this will typically lend itself to exploitation if the community embraces it. I appreciate your efforts, but SC has some work to do if posts like this are to bare fruit rather than frustration.

Issues to be addressed before I recommend anyone follows this upgrade path:
1. How MM handles balancing of key TH11 structures like Warden and Eagle
1A. How MM handles weight trade at top for weight at the bottom (likely fixing #1 will fix this as well)

---

What do you guys think would be something else that I could add to the OP to help with Oriana's specific situation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

What do you guys think would be something else that I could add to the OP to help with Oriana's specific situation?

---

One thing we have noticed since the TH11 overhaul is that many clans are maxing TH11 offense and keeping eagle at LV1, and other new/existing defensive structures around TH10 range with max walls. We run full 5 max 11s up top and this more often than not pulls in additional 45/45/20 11s with eagle on the opponents side of the map. I suggest upgrade path similar to what I have outlined for opposing TH11 play for clans looking to match fairly with the slew of clans doing this.

Adding some criteria that addresses roster design with multiple TH11s specifically would go a long way. Also, see my last post above for TH9/10 breakdown to match. Point #6 needs to be updated for heavier lineups, probably still holds for lighter clans run larger wars. I can't speak to those.

Our clan has began reaching out to network with other clans in order to pull in resources to make these matchups more fair. We know our roster design philosophy works because we are mimmicking roster design of some of the top war families in game who constantly shuffle accounts between clans to fit a template, but convincing other clans to exchange heavy accounts for lower, balanced, skilled 9s, is tricky business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prutser

That is much better.

Edit: I think you should add a "reality check point" saying that no matter what you will do with your clan line up, you WILL run into an engineered clan. This due to the fact that win-streak is counted. Which in my eyes is totally fine and normal. The points mentioned only help to minimize the chance of running into them more often if you loose some wars.

---

Not necessarily. You're certainly more likely to run into other very successful clans as you have more and more success, so by that metric then you certainly could face more slightly-to-somewhat engineered clans as you progress, but your odds of winning more than 10 or 15 in a row even if you're truly elite are pretty low if every war is a tossup on paper. I do know somebody here who has 15 in a row 100% legitimately through superior attacking/base building skill with a roster something like ~ 5 full th10 and 15-20 full th9 (with all the th9 a threat to 3* their mirror), and I know another guy who won at least 46 in a row by stacking his clan with 2/3 th8 and a few th9 and th10 at the top...but I don't know anybody who just has a clan full of evenly-built bases who has won so much that the mm dumped 6ay Martians or one of their ilk on the clan due to nothing more than win streak. And, really, if your clan has won 5 in a row, much less 10-20-30, the caliber of your opponents will be tend to be so much better over time that you might have a better shot vs a mildly engineered clan than you would against an opponent with exact mirror bases and similar skill to yours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by higgsbosons

I don't think that roster engineering should be the answer to the partly broken match making algorithm. Supercell needs to fix it. Most of the casual and random clans might never have heard about war weight or engineering. They just want to play a game and war from time to time. None of the things mentioned in the ClashTutor video will avoid being matched with an engineered clan at the moment. She even wrote this herself into the comments.

---

Who's roster engineering? My clan regularly wars with at least one 9.5 these days, though I keep trying to work on him to drop infernos, and it's not uncommon for us to have one or 2 8.5's, too. We just war with people who are green, and most of our clan is good enough that they don't feel the need to permabase at th9/10, and they understand that one or 2 perma-.5's can really screw over the clan in the mm.

Any clan that just wants to play the game won't have people engineering their bases and won't be matching up too often with engineers, unless they have lopsided bases of their own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StormHeart

I know you know that Supercell does follow the ideas in the forum. I don't think they read this deeply but they do read every thread. Ot at least they claim too. :) Do they read the 37th page? I doubt it. :)

---

I know that they're watching this thread. It's still a cat/mouse game with the engineers for them, but they're getting better at helping truly non-engineered clans to get consistently fair and even matchups in my experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TankSinatra

I've seen them say they read everything posted in the suggestions forum, but never that they read anywhere else. The average poster's idea that they're arguing in front of SC leads to everything getting unnecessarily heated - if you're arguing a case before SC, you need to win to get your idea implemented, everyone that disagrees is an enemy.

Things tend to get less toxic when people realize how low the stakes are. Things tend to get more productive when people realize its just players talking to eachother - we can help with strategy, maybe help with an understanding of the matchmaker. We can't implement anyone's idea however no matter how wonderful.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StormHeart

I saw a post that said they read every thread on the forum. Doesn't make it true but hopefully they do. I figure they have someone summarize the idea of post and forward them up the chain. No idea how much detail they include. Could be very little.

---

Well, I'd say that it's highly unlikely that they have the manpower for actual SC employees to read every single post. However, between mods flagging "interesting" threads, and gasps, and content creators here...yeah, I'd say that somebody with some sort of contact with SC probably reads every thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wysiwyg

We've tried minimizing our th range, using and not using fodder bases, rain dances, voodoo, and every combination possible. Nothing makes a noticeable difference these days.

Fact is, that we face sandbaggers now and then. The frequency at with we match them is also increasing as there are more and more of them popping up. Spawning like bunnies.

Even global has caught on. There you can find new players on their way to becoming future sandbaggers, and promoting "engineering" all the while

I really hope this massive update fixes the war scene.

#WeWantFairPlay

---

That's intersting, I have seen zero change in the matchmaker for any of my clans in months. The clans with mostly even bases mostly face other balanced clans, and the clans with too many outliers often face matchups that are unfair to one side or the other. Every now and then we'll be at a slight hero or inferno disadvantage, sometimes both, and that usually happens after big win streaks, but tbh I'm far more worried about a clan that's a close mirror to us and has a 14 win streak than I am about a clan with 3 more infernos than us or an extra couple th11 but only wins 2/3 of their wars.