How to get Fair and Competitive Wars, and Avoid Engineered Clans

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

The "infernos vs heroes" effect generally refers to maxxers (say, th9 30/30 heroes) matching to weak/mid th10s (infernos but low heroes). No manipulation involved.
If I'm wrong about the definition and its about 9.5s matching 10s, then its definitely an illusion that the heroes are the issue.

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I would agree with you on that, partly because it is probably only the case of the maxxer clan - and more so a maxxer clan with a fairly typical common lineup - that can truly reveal heros vs infernos matches, where we know there is little or nothing else impacting as a possible factor.

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

Four consecutive posters (Skrags, myself, mightmare77, and Tank) came on here soon after your post and said, basically, in their experience they disagreed with you or thought you were overstating the case...

and THIS is the response you come back with!?

Paraphrasing, with some of the good parts:



This is a matter of opinion and experience dude. Different clans, with different makeups, game philosophies, skill levels, etc., will experience the "hero vs. inferno" effect differently. And YOUR way, and YOUR philosophy, and YOUR experience is not the only one out there and the "correct way to play or experience the game."

People constantly tell tell you this every time you spout off about how stupid we all are for not playing as you do, but the message never seems to take...

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Lol n herein lies the problem he has. He apparently thinks his opinions r facts n anyone who disagrees with him is wrong n more importantly how he presents himself. Ur actions greatly determine how u get treated.

When he made a post about farming, I disagreed with some of his statements n endless word regurgitation kept appearing so I just sigh, smh, n than told him playing the word game is pointless. Let me show u in action what im saying n show u how wrong u r. So I issued farm challenge. He declined challenge. Instead he made excuses n still swore up n down his way is right n best way n all others r doing it wrong. What can u do? As he stated "cant dumb it down enuff in order to drill into ones inflexible cranium" shrug. Hopefully one day he will c the contradiction in his statements. Its ok to have opinions, we all have them, but once u try to force that opinion down everyones throat u will get puked on.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

The "infernos vs heroes" effect generally refers to maxxers (say, th9 30/30 heroes) matching to weak/mid th10s (infernos but low heroes). No manipulation involved.
If I'm wrong about the definition and its about 9.5s matching 10s, then its definitely an illusion that the heroes are the issue.

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Hmmm apparently we had different war experiences than. When I started to use manipulated bases along with max bases I noticed if one side lacks offense it is made up for in def n vice versa

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Originally Posted by kimchilove

Hmmm apparently we had different war experiences than. When I started to use manipulated bases along with max bases I noticed if one side lacks offense it is made up for in def n vice versa

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Separate issue. When people say "heroes vs infernos" they're thinking their max th9 heroes are drawing 10s because of the heroes.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

Commitment and how hardcore a clan are 2 major confounders of hero levels in this debate.

Our recent war,
Total heroes of top 5:
our side = 125 (+5 levels of warden)
their side = 337

Total infernos
our side = 11
their side = 2

One clan perfected the other clan, while one clan only managed 57 with great luck. Guess which clan won?

You only think that hero levels are so important because of those confounding factors. Even them out and make sure skill level is similar, then you'll realise how hero levels are a non-factor in determining war outcome

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Congrats on the win. You seem to be basing this statement on your own clan's experience, rather than taking in feedback from all corners of the community. There's no "fixed" rule on 'Heroes v Infernos' , and yes, skill/ability in attacking and base building is paramount.
Personally, and this is a general statement based upon the majority (not all ) of my clans experience, I would prefer Heroes over Infernos most times.... including the war we are in right now....which I'm confident we will win.

It's not Black and White this discussion!:)

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Sin, your clan is in a special category though. You are highly manicured on offense and defense and a bunch of quality players, most clans have zero idea how to do that right. And, in most wars most of the time, a significant hero difference is indicative of a significant difference in involvement in the game. In some wars some of the time, especially with well-engineered clans, hero levels are unimportant or are used to trick the mm into matching you with a far weaker clan.

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

In my opinion, you have this relationship 100% exactly opposite. In my clan war experience, hero levels end up being almost the entire deciding factor of the war.

In your ONE war example it sounds like you matched a THx.5 clan who hasn't figured out that THx.5s got severely nerfed in October, so they're running TH9.5's with no infernos but high heroes (337 across 5 accounts) and getting match to FULL TH10s with infernos and only moderate heroes. In this ONE example, yes, it was the presence of inferno towers that won/lost the war and not hero levels, but if, as you said, you even everything out (including skill) I'll take the side with higher hero levels every day of the week and twice on sundays. What the clan you preyed upon doesn't realize is they could plant their infernos and would likely still pull similar matchups. If the inferno gap were closed, and again assuming equal skill, the hero levels would be likely to be the deciding factor.

Overall, I do not understand your desire to show that heroes are overrated and not really worth upgrading. Your entire rushing mantra is "a day below TH9 is one day farther from a maxed queen," I have seen you state this multiple times. But then you turn around and say "don't upgrade heroes, they're a non-factor," which boggles the mind. Max heroes are absolute beasts and make 3*ing anything substantially easier. The difference between a lvl45 queen and a lvl20 one is like night and day, it's almost unfathomable how much more powerful the 45 queen is by comparison unless you have one. You know this, you have max heroes on some of your accounts. So I don't understand why you're always telling folks to a.) rush to TH9 to get and start upgrading queen, but b.) don't worry about upgrading your queen, hero upgrades aren't worth it... :confused:

Edit: I suppose you might have been saying that commitment and skill can override hero levels, and that may be somewhat true, but generally high hero levels go to the side with more commitment and skill anyway (as it takes a lot of both to max heroes) so that's not saying much. It's still always a good idea to grind out your heroes and get them to as high a level as possible.

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That was the old meta for both engineers and maxers though. The new meta, at least for engineers, is to keep heroes very low so that they can trick the mm into feeding them easier opponents. I'm seeing more and more of this recently. I'd bet that the next mm update works harder to keep hero levels relatively even. Of course, a nice thing about this is that heroes really do make a difference, and even if your opponent is highly manicured you still have a shot if your heroes are significantly higher.

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

OMG!!

HAVE ANY OF YOU READ WHAT I WROTE???!!!!

The things you all say are just proving my point! Too many confounding factors make it seem like hero levels are everything, when in fact if you do it right, they are non-factors at all. No point posting anything if nobody bothers to read and comprehend

There may seem to be a schism for me saying "heroes are not important" and "rush to TH9 ASAP to start on AQ". But that point was relevant in the old days, now not so much. But I still keep using that point because it is one of the only things that can drill the point through an inflexible cranium some people possess

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No need to freak out. Like I said above, in most wars most of the time, hero levels are strongly indicative of involvement with the game. And, to be fair, your clan's hero levels are also strongly indicative, just in a different way. You're using your experience with the game in a different manner. I would say that a th11 with 9/9/8 heroes, lvl 5 dragons, max lavaloon, or lvl 3 bowlers and not much else upgraded in lab, is certainly indicative of strong involvement in the game, very much the same as a th9 with 30/30 heroes and max lavas.

Heroes vs Infernos is real, it happens to me every war. We tell our guys to work on heroes and keep defenses low.
We have no infernos, but the other side always has infernos, usually 4-6 infernos, occasionally up to 10, and when we get a big streak we start facing eagles. We always have bigger heroes. We win 90% of the time.

I'd just like to point out the original intention of this thread to everyone. Whether we all agree or disagree, with the content, the purpose of the thread is to hopefully help members of the community who are continually having issues with matching engineers.

It's not a magic wand, but I'd be disappointed if the thread was closed because forum regulars let it get out of hand.

Can I suggest we all try and reflect on that? :)

Ive not gone tru the whole thread but the suggestions on page 1 can be safely ignored.

Case in point current matchup in one of the clans I am in:

1. We do not use a too spreaded out roster:
We have 7 TH9s and 8 TH8s, nothing special just like any normal clan.

They have 1 TH11, 2 TH10, 6 TH9, 5 TH8 and 2 TH7.

2. Balanced bases, we have no huge disparecy between offence or defences just normal progress, no holding back. They have huge differences.

3. We do not have dumped any low THs on the roster.

4. We lost the war before this war. Their winstreak is 0 too. So that is even.

5. War search was really fast, just a couple of minutes.

Now if we can and will still win the match is a different discussion. But there really is nothing you can do against these matchups. So please stop pretending that anyone can by using these rules.

Edit:
And if you do not believe me, come join the clan to see for yourself: Lords of Pain #80L0QGV8. Put in your join request something like "saw post on forum, want to see matchup for myself". Please note that we are not a super active clan so you might need to wait a while. But I am there the couple of coming hours. We are still in prep phase, the war will start in 7 hours so plenty of time.

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Originally Posted by Prutser

Ive not gone tru the whole thread but the suggestions on page 1 can be safely ignored.

Case in point current matchup in one of the clans I am in:

1. We do not use a too spreaded out roster:
We have 7 TH9s and 8 TH8s, nothing special just like any normal clan.

They have 1 TH11, 2 TH10, 6 TH9, 5 TH8 and 2 TH7.

2. Balanced bases, we have no huge disparecy between offence or defences just normal progress, no holding back. They have huge differences.

3. We do not have dumped any low THs on the roster.

4. We lost the war before this war. Their winstreak is 0 too. So that is even.

5. War search was really fast, just a couple of minutes.

Now if we can and will still win the match is a different discussion. But there really is nothing you can do against these matchups. So please stop pretending that anyone can by using these rules.

Edit:
And if you do not believe me, come join the clan to see for yourself: Lords of Pain #80L0QGV8. Put in your join request something like "saw post on forum, want to see matchup for myself". Please note that we are not a super active clan so you might need to wait a while. But I am there the couple of coming hours. We are still in prep phase, the war will start in 7 hours so plenty of time.

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Just for sake of my knowledge. Is there th10 and 11 are on top numbers or middle or lowers on war maps. What bases of ur are on their mirror. Thanks for responding

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Separate issue. When people say "heroes vs infernos" they're thinking their max th9 heroes are drawing 10s because of the heroes.

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Aaaaa aight my bad. Misunderstood u. Nvm. Carry on xD