Unfair Clan Wars: we facing players having rushed defences but very high level armies

I don't know how exactly the strength of a player is determined when he participates in a clan war, but what I can see is that it depends solely on his defensive buildings and not on his army. People have a great way of making use of this. We (a clan with th9 and below players) are sometimes facing clans with th10s and th11s opposite to our th6 and th7 players!!! Reason : because their defences are underdeveloped, but come on, they have armies meant for th10/11 and can easily blow away lower ones. So they end up three staring our top 10 bases (in 25 member war) with some of their bottom 10 bases, so frustrating.
And I am quite certain more than half of the players must have faced this (or are doing this). So please improve clan war match making, with this thought in mind.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilIncarnate000009

I don't know how exactly the strength of a player is determined when he participates in a clan war, but what I can see is that it depends solely on his defensive buildings and not on his army. People have a great way of making use of this. We (a clan with th9 and below players) are sometimes facing clans with th10s and th11s opposite to our th6 and th7 players!!! Reason : because their defences are underdeveloped, but come on, they have armies meant for th10/11 and can easily blow away lower ones. So they end up three staring our top 10 bases (in 25 member war) with some of their bottom 10 bases, so frustrating.
And I am quite certain more than half of the players must have faced this (or are doing this). So please improve clan war match making, with this thought in mind.

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Fresh pawn: everything in your post is wrong, wrong and wrong. Spend more time reading on this forum, especially from people who think that the match making is fair, instead of those complaining about match ups, like in your case.

Three things to remember:
-townhall level is irrelevant in the mm
-base position on the war map is irrelevant in the mm
-skill is the n1 determinant of a war outcome, not mm manipulation
Your journey to understanding the mm starts with that.

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Originally Posted by topbtm

Fresh pawn: everything in your post is wrong, wrong and wrong. Spend more time reading on this forum, especially from people who think that the match making is fair, instead of those complaining about match ups, like in your case.

Three things to remember:
-townhall level is irrelevant in the mm
-base position on the war map is irrelevant in the mm
-skill is the n1 determinant of a war outcome, not mm manipulation
Your journey to understanding the mm starts with that.

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Ok I'll tell u this way - our clan has th9 players (no th10 n 11) and still, the guys who attacked our top bases had lvl6 drags and 13 spell capacity (perhaps 11 not sure of this) and grand warden too.
So fair right!!! Anything to say?

I actually want to say that coc check only defensive strengths of players while matchmaking and ignores the fact that they may have very strong armies.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilIncarnate000009

Ok I'll tell u this way - our clan has th9 players (no th10 n 11) and still, the guys who attacked our top bases had lvl6 drags and 13 spell capacity (perhaps 11 not sure of this) and grand warden too.
So fair right!!! Anything to say?

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Since when it is one base vs one base? It is clan vs clan. The example you show does not show an indication of a mismatch, unless you provide more details for the rest of both clans.

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Originally Posted by topbtm

Since when it is one base vs one base? It is clan vs clan. The example you show does not show an indication of a mismatch, unless you provide more details for the rest of both clans.

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Ok I tell u complete details.
It was a 25 member war. We had strong th9s in upper 8 positions and so had the enemy. But then we had th6 7 and 8s in lower positions. The opponent on the other hand had th10 and 11s in the lower positions. Eventually, these guys cleared our best bases with their th11 armies.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilIncarnate000009

So please improve clan war match making, with this thought in mind.

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This is quite common, people posting to the player's forum as if they were communicating, or making demands of the developers. But there is no developer participation in the forums, they might skim a bit but we're mostly players talking among ourselves here.

As such, look here for good suggestions to avoid engineered clans -

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...gineered-clans

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Originally Posted by TheDevilIncarnate000009

I actually want to say that coc check only defensive strengths of players while matchmaking and ignores the fact that they may have very strong armies.

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This isn't the case. It may feel to you that it is- when you pair up against a clan with a defenseless base. But it's not how the algorithm works.

As mentioned, it's going to look at the entire group of mates in the war, an overall weighting. Heroes count. Troop levels count. Camp sizes count. And yes, defenses count too.

You did not provide complete details. That would require everything I just mentioned, and more. If one clan is stronger overall from a defensive perspective- you can bet the other side has an offensive advantage. And again- there is no in-lane matching, so mirrors are not to be viewed as any sort of equal. If a max offense TH11 happens to have the same war map number as the opposing TH6- well then the weight difference the TH11 enjoys (and it is noted) will be made up elsewhere on the other side.

Whether that helps your clan or not- is an entirely different story. That is where clan makeup and specific progression comes into play. And this is far more important when it comes to clan wars... than deciding which defense you are going to upgrade next.

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Originally Posted by cnaf

This isn't the case. It may feel to you that it is- when you pair up against a clan with a defenseless base. But it's not how the algorithm works.

As mentioned, it's going to look at the entire group of mates in the war, an overall weighting. Heroes count. Troop levels count. Camp sizes count. And yes, defenses count too.

You did not provide complete details. That would require everything I just mentioned, and more. If one clan is stronger overall from a defensive perspective- you can bet the other side has an offensive advantage. And again- there is no in-lane matching, so mirrors are not to be viewed as any sort of equal. If a max offense TH11 happens to have the same war map number as the opposing TH6- well then the weight difference the TH11 enjoys (and it is noted) will be made up elsewhere on the other side.

Whether that helps your clan or not- is an entirely different story. That is where clan makeup and specific progression comes into play. And this is far more important when it comes to clan wars... than deciding which defense you are going to upgrade next.

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This means that engineering a clan with some very strong defensive bases (to make the enemy miss a star) and some bases with underdeveloped defences but high troop levels (for destroying strongest enemy bases) in the best way to win wars.
And clans whose players believe in maxing out their bases before upgrading th should understand this.

So can you 3 star their top bases?? If their top bases are TH9s, then you shouldn't have much of a problem and at worst, get a tie with perfect wars on both sides. Yes, defenseless/low defense bases, with good troops are still flying under the radar a bit still. What are your top bases like compared to theirs?? Maybe their top base is a TH8 or mid TH9??

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Originally Posted by TheDevilIncarnate000009

This means that engineering a clan with some very strong defensive bases (to make the enemy miss a star) and some bases with underdeveloped defences but high troop levels (for destroying strongest enemy bases) in the best way to win wars.
And clans whose players believe in maxing out their bases before upgrading th should understand this.

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No, if bases are used that have underdeveloped defenses with high troop levels (lets assume we are including heroes in this discussion)- they will be counted in the overall weighting by their offensive number, and thus at a liability because they cannot defend well. An easy triple.

Under the current MM tweak, lopsided bases with the best chance to win wars are those that weight low on the defensive side... but only having a relatively average offensive weight for their Town Hall level. Example, a TH11 with a 30k defensive weight, and heroes in the 20/20/10 range is a juggernaut for the pairing. The weighting he takes into the overall is low enough that he can draw bases that are cake for his warden level. If that same TH11 had 35/40/20 heroes- he is generally a liability for the clan. His offensive weighting will probably bring in another TH11 with near maxed defenses. Much harder task for him to triple, and yet easy picking for the other clan.

Important to note, there are many other variables that come into play that can affect this. Clan makeup, size for example. It's much easier to slot a defenseless base into a clan if all the majority of other bases in the war are balanced. Run to many .5s, or defenseless... and it will hurt you. That's the reason why there are wildly different comments coming from engineered clans as to who is seeing more difficult matchups, and who is not- post update. Who is thriving, and who is struggling. Because it depends on the mates around them as well. Their troop/spell levels, and hero levels.

OP, I understand your pain. This is all smoke-filled ♥♥♥♥ on these forums. The mm needs to be fixed, lets just hope they fix it soon. Stay strong brother. Oh yeah thats right, i forgot about the extra spell in the cc, now l, a FAKE th11 with level 7 lightning can kill 3 AD's. With level 5 or 6 drags, GOOD LUCK DEFENDING. Where do we draw the line all you engineers? You see this slippery slope that's being created?

Post MM: Started another war today semi-engineered clan. we matched a regular clan with a max th11 at top and 2 th10 with infernps. our top 3 was a max th11, max th9, and another th9. They have the inferno advantage but we have the th9 advantage with strong ger th9 and more of them.

Not sure if something changed or if it is just because we have a th11 and a th9 with no th10 in between

I absolutely agree with the OP. The other two replying and defending are just trolls. Saying suck it and see. Probably pros at the old fiddling with the way the line ups are matched.

How can a war war be fair with (in a 10v10) one team having 2 th10, (with limited troops upgrades) 4 th9s with all near max and 4 8s again not to shabby for a th8.
Vs
4th10s selected (or engineered I.e lev 2 bowlers, level 5 valks and golems and level 5 dragons) - th11 2 th9s near max and the rest 8s? Their th10 and 11s have stronger heroes too.

Troops should now be a major part of war mm imo. Those of you who disagree are wrong. You just make the game unfun for the people who want a fair game and to enjoy a fair game.

Could you post your tag? A lot of complaints here are from premmie bases or just exaggerated to look worse than the matches. Really are

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Originally Posted by SupremeCleave

Could you post your tag? A lot of complaints here are from premmie bases or just exaggerated to look worse than the matches. Really are

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Just read my concern about junk th11's cleaning max th9's with upgraded cc. Killing 3 ads. The extra regular spell i knew was NO GOOD for th11.

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

OP, I understand your pain. This is all smoke-filled ♥♥♥♥ on these forums. The mm needs to be fixed, lets just hope they fix it soon. Stay strong brother. Oh yeah thats right, i forgot about the extra spell in the cc, now l, a FAKE th11 with level 7 lightning can kill 3 AD's. With level 5 or 6 drags, GOOD LUCK DEFENDING. Where do we draw the line all you engineers? You see this slippery slope that's being created?

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Come to the dark side! Lol where do we draw the line? When people like you start smashing us engineers... And then.... I have to add more defense to our lineup. But regardless, most of the engineers will keep winning even if SC totally changes everything.... Most of us are pretty sharp and passionate about this game.... We will keep figuring things out.

I'm not taking shots at you... Just wanted to answer your question based on how the game is now.

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

Just read my concern about junk th11's cleaning max th9's with upgraded cc. Killing 3 ads. The extra regular spell i knew was NO GOOD for th11.

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So now th11 should have the very needed extra spell slot taken out?

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Originally Posted by SupremeCleave

So now th11 should have the very needed extra spell slot taken out?

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Yep. Can hold 2 slots but only dark spells. If you think somebody just upgrading to th11 without defenses should be able to clean max th9's with drags and lightning with no effort is good for the game, you have no soul

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Originally Posted by KingKreg

Come to the dark side! Lol where do we draw the line? When people like you start smashing us engineers... And then.... I have to add more defense to our lineup. But regardless, most of the engineers will keep winning even if SC totally changes everything.... Most of us are pretty sharp and passionate about this game.... We will keep figuring things out.

I'm not taking shots at you... Just wanted to answer your question based on how the game is now.

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This. Most passionate engineers will adapt. Me? I will too but that depends on how fast i complete doom and darksouls 3

DL. checking your. War log 26 of your wars have been lost/won by a margin of over 5 stars (not equal to 5). Quite a few are won by over 8 stars as well. Will post when I compare this to a hyper engineered clan

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

Yep. Can hold 2 slots but only dark spells. If you think somebody just upgrading to th11 without defenses should be able to clean max th9's with drags and lightning with no effort is good for the game, you have no soul

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Im talking about all th11 in general. You don't think they need that offense buff? Th11vth11 was pretty togh of triples

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Originally Posted by SupremeCleave

Im talking about all th11 in general. You don't think they need that offense buff? Th11vth11 was pretty togh of triples

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Th11 needs a troop, not another regular spell

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

Th11 needs a troop, not another regular spell

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No. It needs a new spell and some more army space lol. A new troop can come later.

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Originally Posted by SupremeCleave

DL. checking your. War log 26 of your wars have been lost/won by a margin of over 5 stars (not equal to 5). Quite a few are won by over 8 stars as well. Will post when I compare this to a hyper engineered clan

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hm, DL no reply to this?

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Originally Posted by SupremeCleave

hm, DL no reply to this?

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What do u want me to say? The wars we lose, we are at a disadvantage. The wars we win are usually earned. Once in a while we have a slight advantage, but never crazy. You look at my clan and u go up and down and see everyone properly upgraded. We usually do all of our attacking within the first 4-6 hours. So if we put up a ton of stars, sometimes they dont attack whole-heartedly out of deflation. I could understand that.

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Originally Posted by daddylindo

What do u want me to say? The wars we lose, we are at a disadvantage. The wars we win are usually earned. Once in a while we have a slight advantage, but never crazy. You look at my clan and u go up and down and see everyone properly upgraded. We usually do all of our attacking within the first 4-6 hours. So if we put up a ton of stars, sometimes they dont attack whole-heartedly out of deflation. I could understand that.

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Your clan yes but im speaking of competitive wars like you say you get all the time yet your war log shows that more than half of your wars have been won by a large margin

what im saying is that engineered and balanced rosters like yours get similiar results. Engineered doesnt mean easy wars all the time as many clan, and balanced doesnt mean competitive all the time either.

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...=1#post9165547

Read that post, and perhaps the whole thread, it will explain much.

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Originally Posted by Micker99

So can you 3 star their top bases?? If their top bases are TH9s, then you shouldn't have much of a problem and at worst, get a tie with perfect wars on both sides. Yes, defenseless/low defense bases, with good troops are still flying under the radar a bit still. What are your top bases like compared to theirs?? Maybe their top base is a TH8 or mid TH9??

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So true... it's one thing if you get that war the OP described and just give up, but if you have 8 th9's who know what they're doing, why can't you 3* all opponent th9's and lower? Some engineered clans are chock full of highly skilled players, but most are not, and it sounds like the OP's opponents weren't that good if they were dipping on th9's with dragons. Whenever I've run into wars that look to be unfair on paper like that, I have buckled down and worked all the harder. Heck, my clan's last 2 wars we were outnumbered on th11's 1-3 and 1-2 (with same number of 10's and 9's), yet we still figured out a way to win both wars.

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

So true... it's one thing if you get that war the OP described and just give up, but if you have 8 th9's who know what they're doing, why can't you 3* all opponent th9's and lower? Some engineered clans are chock full of highly skilled players, but most are not, and it sounds like the OP's opponents weren't that good if they were dipping on th9's with dragons. Whenever I've run into wars that look to be unfair on paper like that, I have buckled down and worked all the harder. Heck, my clan's last 2 wars we were outnumbered on th11's 1-3 and 1-2 (with same number of 10's and 9's), yet we still figured out a way to win both wars.

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i like it. describes our clan perfectly.
here's a great way to put it:
we are moderately "engineered". not crazy like geymartians and such.
.5 mandatory. several that have skipped building infernos / eagles and proceeded to max pure offense after th 9
a few defenseless'ish. mine is our most extreme, th11 (but ive been working on mine 1.5 years now). rest are th 9 / 8.

i have never seen a war anytime recently we couldn't be beat.
the ones where we have been beat were by great attackers. clean all the 10's and below, 2 star the 11's.
recently we've lost by tie a few times (percent), and a few times where they had an extra "real" max 11 that couldnt be 3'd by us.

know what we are doing?
forcing the opponent to play our game. ATTACK. its what we like.
you attack better than us or "equal" to us, you are most likely going to win.

you sit back and build all your pretty defense and cant back it up with power and skill, you lose.
we are 99% of the time "out defense'd" on eagle / inferno count. i dont get mad though like alot here. we bring our A game and smash.

bring your A game and smash those evil engineers. you'll always get a good job from us.

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Originally Posted by jobob145

know what we are doing?
forcing the opponent to play our game. ATTACK. its what we like.
you attack better than us or "equal" to us, you are most likely going to win.

you sit back and build all your pretty defense and cant back it up with power and skill, you lose.
we are 99% of the time "out defense'd" on eagle / inferno count. i dont get mad though like alot here. we bring our A game and smash.

bring your A game and smash those evil engineers. you'll always get a good job from us.

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That's pretty similar to what we're doing. Our top guys are TH9.5s for now & most of the time they face TH10s, sometimes nearly maxed defensively. Usually we have a hero advantage, but not always. Full TH10s should be 3 starring our 9.5s regularly, but they don't. We can typically fight their full TH10s to a draw & win with better TH9 play. Our new TH9s don't drop xbows until they have built up offense to 3 star TH9s with xbows. We don't have perma-.5 bases because the new MM was clearly weighing them about as much as if they had built xbows.

Our current opponent has 2 full TH10s & several preemie TH9s & TH10s. Their war log is full of red lines because clans that don't worry about having a roster that can get meaningful 3 stars doesn't stand a chance against the ones that do.

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Originally Posted by topbtm

Fresh pawn: everything in your post is wrong, wrong and wrong. Spend more time reading on this forum, especially from people who think that the match making is fair, instead of those complaining about match ups, like in your case.

Three things to remember:
-townhall level is irrelevant in the mm
-base position on the war map is irrelevant in the mm
-skill is the n1 determinant of a war outcome when my clan wins, not mm manipulation
-when my clan loses it was definitely mm manipulation and an unfair match
Your journey to understanding the mm starts with that.

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by SSeleulc

Fixed that for you.

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His clan qualified as a war outcome so id say its about right

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Originally Posted by jobob145

i like it. describes our clan perfectly.
here's a great way to put it:
we are moderately "engineered". not crazy like geymartians and such.
.5 mandatory. several that have skipped building infernos / eagles and proceeded to max pure offense after th 9
a few defenseless'ish. mine is our most extreme, th11 (but ive been working on mine 1.5 years now). rest are th 9 / 8.

i have never seen a war anytime recently we couldn't be beat.
the ones where we have been beat were by great attackers. clean all the 10's and below, 2 star the 11's.
recently we've lost by tie a few times (percent), and a few times where they had an extra "real" max 11 that couldnt be 3'd by us.

know what we are doing?
forcing the opponent to play our game. ATTACK. its what we like.
you attack better than us or "equal" to us, you are most likely going to win.

you sit back and build all your pretty defense and cant back it up with power and skill, you lose.
we are 99% of the time "out defense'd" on eagle / inferno count. i dont get mad though like alot here. we bring our A game and smash.

bring your A game and smash those evil engineers. you'll always get a good job from us.

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I second this. Great post and perspective.

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Originally Posted by SSeleulc

Fixed that for you.

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Lol. I get what you are saying and I generally agree with your change - most think like that...even my clan sometimes :)

If there bases are that rushed this shouldn't be a problem.