Is [5,0,0] -> [10,0,0] -> [30,30,0] -> [40,40,20] for hero progression not a relic?

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but there is no requirement to max heroes at any given level. I believe that most rush to TH10 without level 30 heroes, and TH11 without level 4 heroes, which is okay IMO.

My personal goal was at least 20/20 before going to level TH10, and I made it to ~25/25. I went to TH11 with hero levels around 30/30, and have concentrated on the GW, which is hitting max in a couple of days (and is much easier than the other heroes). My heroes are now 30/33 (I think), and I plan to now work on maxing them.

I don't see why further restricting upgrade levels would serve any purpose, other than for those that feel they absolutely have to max at each level.

Nothing says you have to max heroes at each level.

but cutting back hero levels at any TH is simply not going to happen.

for me I did
th7 5,0,0
th8 10,0,0
th9 25,23,0
th10 36,40,0

pretty sure I'll get 40,40,0 knocked out at 10 as it is only 4 more weeks.

i could totally see adding BK 15 and AQ 5 to TH8 though doubt that is in the works soon.
ive seen folks ask for warden 5 at TH10 but think that probably shouldn't happen

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Originally Posted by CasualPleb

EDIT: I know that "taking away" levels isn't the correct method. SC would need to be really sensitive about this and find a good way to not hurt current players too much, but still enable new players to have a smooth progression throughout the game. I just wanna know if people are aware that this might be a problem for new players and thus the longterm playerbase of CoC.

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As someone who started when there were already 40 hero levels on TH10 I always felt something was wrong.
I'm a near maxed TH10 and I just wanna share my subjective opinion on this part of the game.

TH7: lvl 5 BKing
- Really easy to get and smooth to max out.

TH8: lvl 10 BKing
- Still really smooth to max out, though there are quite a few DE laboratory upgrades as well.
- Maxing the king and the town hall at all is almost timed perfectly if you have a well distributed income of gold/elixir/DE.

TH9: lvl 30 BKing / lvl 30 AQueen
- The common problem I had and I can still see with most TH9 players is, that the town hall structures + laboratory are maxed out far before walls and heroes are.
- Before we had +5 hero levels on th7 and th8, now we have +50 hero levels to get.
- For me it was 15/15~ but it might vary depending on your laboratory and farming focus. Either way it should result in similar levels if you are constantly upgrading stuff.
- TH9 was the first town hall where progression didn't feel smooth anymore. That's not a problem by itself, with the fair progression you experienced until moving from TH8 -> TH9 it's just like a huge "spike" in additional time consumption while carrying your 5/5 builders around just for regular wall upgrades

// now here I have to assume somethings from past patch notes
// As far as I know, the max levels 30/30 were introduced before the 4.14 TH10 update. So nothing has changed since back (?)
- For me it felt like maxing heroes on th9 was a far too distant goal, that's why I didn't bother with it and progressed with 20/20~ heroes.
- Back then TH9 as max level TH needed stuff to grind. That's okay. But we have 2 additional TH levels now.
- Today there is a huge difference if you upgrade your Town Hall right after max defense or with maxed heroes (in my case that would have been 15/15 compared to 30/30).
- High level heroes are almost necessary if you wanna stay competitive.
--> You are either TH hugging (staying maybe twice or thrice as long as you "should" have to)

TH10: lvl 40 BKing / lvl 40 AQueen
- We get an additional max DE Drill -> +50% passive DE income
- More war loot
- Technically highter league loot// assuming we have 30/30 heroes already
- We only have to upgrade for 20 additional hero levels, that's not even close to the "sleeping time" we have with the 50 levels on TH9
- With the additional DE progression (time and farming) feel okay. It's still taking time to fetch all the DE, but overall it doesn't feel sluggish rather like quite the accomplishment.

TH11: lvl 20 GWarden
// haven't experienced it myself, but a friend has recently progressed to TH11 and almost maxed the GW already
// but the data already speaks for itself
- 20 hero levels, but they are not done with DE, but with plain elixir!
- the elixir costs for the first 10 levels are really easy to farm and thus he is upgraded real quick
- progression due to elixir seems to be and feel quite okay. Especially assuming you balance it well out with the laboratory upgrades.
=> Since the GW is an elixir hero it doesn't feel wrong to assume, that SC knows and planned for the progressing players to not have maxed BK/AQ


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I try to dl;dr my overall opinion and "wish":

On all TH the hero progression feels okay, if there wasn't that nasty TH9 (Maybe a nice graph or numbers would be nice to clarify this).
Since the TH9 situation was the result of it being the former max level for Town Halls and we are 2 generations in the future and the grind has basically shifted to TH11 now, the current progression of TH9 doesn't feel nice anymore.
Now here is the problem: The community.
I can think about a lot of ways to smooth the hero progression out again, but in all cases those with TH9+30/30 heroes will feel it the most.
Let's assume we would simply change the overall max levels to something like this (this isn't a serious idea) TH9 -> [20/20] => TH10 -> [35/35] => TH11 -> [40/40/20]. The progression of current TH9/10 would need to be halted and lowered, once they progress to the next TH level they could be instantly reverted back (or they get an instant option to upgrade them for X levels for free, whatever).
Especially regarding this forum, I think there are a lot of said TH9ers who like to stay where they are and have this little bit of superiority compared to other TH9ers.
Now I don't wanna discuss this sample idea or the mad community at all.
I'll finish it with two questions?:

1. Do you agree with the hero progression feeling "wrong" or "old"?
- If no, why not?
2. Balance always hurts someone/somewhere. Say you are a perma maxed TH9 with 30/30 heroes. Would you be okay with the gap being smoothened (depending on the way it'd be smoothened ofc) so that you could progress faster/more smoothly as a TH9 after maxing out defense/laboratory (faster != together with maxed defense) ?

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I Don't agree that hero progression feels wrong. Based on my numbers

th7 - 75k DE and 5 days ( 57 days to max lab)
th8 - 152.5k DE and 17.5 days (148 days to max lab)
th9 - 4287.5k DE and 296 days (217 days to max lab)
th10 - 3450k DE and 140 days (351 days to max lab)

These day totals are based on heros upgrading one at a time.

Based on the number of days to max lab upgrades compared to maxing heroes at a particular th level I can say that these numbers seem pretty reasonable to me. Sure th10 doesn't require as much time or DE to max heroes for that th level but look at how much more lab upgrade time is needed, then if you throw additional hero levels at th10 on top of the lab upgrades it becomes the same thing that you currently feel th9 is now. I think the hero and wall grind are in a good spot being at th9 as this is the spot where people have to learn how to play the game at a higher level or quit, so it only makes sense to try to get people to stay at this th level as long as you can. Staying at th9 and really learning how to use your heroes and the new style attacking and army comps required at th9+ is only going to set people up to succeed at th10 and 11. Also if you focus all your raiding efforts on de once you hit th9 it's not that hard to have heroes finish at the same time other upgrades do if you just prioritize things correctly.

I doubt SC would refund me in $$ the value of 20k gems I used to do the 20 lvls of hero's on my th9 I have no plans to take to th10.

Let TH8s upgrade their king to level 15. It won't change the balance at TH8 much. Most moderately skilled TH8s are already capable of 3 starring most max TH8s bases already without their king.

Thats 5 less levels that you have to grind out at TH9 if you choose to do it at 8.

They could consider moving the first 5 levels of the queen to TH8. I'm not sure if this would make TH8 easier or harder. Queen is barely worth having at level 5. She's hardly capable of killing CC without some help and certainly not strong enough to turn queen walk into the new OP TH8 attack. However the introduction of the queen into TH8 defense would make some attacks more difficult.

I agree with you, hero levels should be smoothed out across the board. I would do it like this:

(5)TH7 5,0,0
(10)TH8 15,0,0
(40)TH9 30,25,0
(30)TH10 40,40,5
(15)TH11 40,40,20

I would also give TH10 the GW at level 5.

As i also suggested in other posts, players want to war. Levelling heroes means to be out of them for an absurd amount if time. There money required to avoid it's insane.

What about a purchase for 3000gems that allows using heroes in war while upping? Would that not smooth aout the endless TH9?

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Originally Posted by WookieFloyd

I Don't agree that hero progression feels wrong. Based on my numbers

th7 - 75k DE and 5 days ( 57 days to max lab)
th8 - 152.5k DE and 17.5 days (148 days to max lab)
th9 - 4287.5k DE and 296 days (217 days to max lab)
th10 - 3450k DE and 140 days (351 days to max lab)

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Are you sure that you didn't calculated just the new TH10 laboratory research? I'm really sure that I didn't need that long for the laboratory to max out. Might be alzheimer's though.

Assuming your numbers are correct, you still have to count in, that the DE income at th9 isn't that huge. Also technically this also means that the heroes are sleeping the most at TH9. Caluculating the ratio (1hero/1lab) reveals that th9 still is a spike. And I'm questioning if the spike is still at the right place with TH9.

For quick reference:
thX -> hero time/lab time
th7 -> 0.08
th8 - > 0.12
th9 - > 1.36
th10 -> 0.40

That's more than thrice of what it is at TH10 and ten times of what it took at TH8. It doesn't need to be linear or steadily rising, but the spike is huge imo and while the other numbers look good, it played out worse for me at least.

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Originally Posted by fplant

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but there is no requirement to max heroes at any given level.

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You are totally right. There are still 2 issues.
1) Psychology: If you have the option to do something, people want do it. I guess many people burn out on the way to maxing the their TH9 heroes. I remember back then becoming a fresh TH9 I felt really intimidated which the huge quest in front of me. If you aren't that dedicated as a player, we can only assume that it's too much at once for quite a few to keep playing.
Longterm players need motivation and there is no better way to crush it but with intimidation.

2) Inter TH level strength: Guess why so many people go perma TH9 and not TH8 or TH10. The difference between a maxed TH9 and someone who is "just going through" is the biggest one.

I am sorry but this isn't a good idea. Plus if SC did this they'd lose more money because all the guys that spent and continue to spend money in major pushing clans or war clans would either lose progress or it would be much easier for other newer players to reach the same lvls. That isn't fair. New members can push as long as we did. They will be okay.

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Originally Posted by Sirwilliam99

I am sorry but this isn't a good idea. Plus if SC did this they'd lose more money because all the guys that spent and continue to spend money in major pushing clans or war clans would either lose progress or it would be much easier for other newer players to reach the same lvls. That isn't fair. New members can push as long as we did. They will be okay.

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What idea are you even talking about?
This thread can be summed up as a question, not as an idea. (I'm sure I put enough questionsmarks everywhere)
Did you even read anything? The title maybe?

Also you don't seem to be able to think out of the box. There are a lot of ways to tackle this issue without harming anyone too much.

Let's say clash would be made new as a whole, no players, no anything. Do you still think the current hero progression would fit, if it would go to TH11 directly and not end at TH9 in the beginning? I doubt so, if you're really honest. Else I'd like to hear your opinion why it would still be a good idea.

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Originally Posted by CasualPleb

What idea are you even talking about?
This thread can be summed up as a question, not as an idea. (I'm sure I put enough questionsmarks everywhere)
Did you even read anything? The title maybe?

Also you don't seem to be able to think out of the box. There are a lot of ways to tackle this issue without harming anyone too much.

Let's say clash would be made new as a whole, no players, no anything. Do you still think the current hero progression would fit, if it would go to TH11 directly and not end at TH9 in the beginning? I doubt so, if you're really honest. Else I'd like to hear your opinion why it would still be a good idea.

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If they were starting the game from scratch your model might work.

But any talk of eliminating levels and ant TH be it Heores, Troop levels or building levels is almost certainly dead on arrival.

It is one thing to "nerf" a troop, building or hero. It is quite another thing to take something away for a group of folks who worked hard to get their items were they are for the TH level they are at.

Yes grinding heroes is hard and it involves both time and dedication as well as likely sitting out wars but that should be rewarded not punished as you are suggestion to my mind.