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i have no idea what you want out of this game lolQuote:
Originally Posted by knmmartijn
first is engineereds...second is premmie....third are maxers.....
dude what is wrong is you....and your stance at the game
try to visit war in other clans for a change it does you good
what is wrong is that you want the game to fit your needs and not the other way around
Yeah, there will almost certainly be some advantage to making highly engineered and defenseless, but slotting a max offense 11 in as a mid th10 or even max th9 would be an enormous improvement over the current weighting. And, if the advantage isn't strong-enough, it seems likely that we won't see defenseless bases being started in the future b/c the time/gem cost is just so high to get them up to max offense th11.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangemojo
I'll have a go at answering then...Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterOz
The system uses both scores: the defence weight which is sort of visible in the gold stores. And the offence weight which is hard to see, although you can get an idea from the recommended targets it shows at the start of war. The ranking on the war map is by defence - it's intended to help you pick a target in war, for which defence is all that matters.
Old system of MM: Clans were compared on a mirror by mirror basis, looking for a sufficiently small total error. It's not clear how offence and defence scores were combined, but it's likely that clan A best defence was compared to clan B best defence, repeating to the bottom, and also clan A offence compared to clan B best offence (base #1 for offence might not be the same one as base #1 for defence). It's possible that offence and defence were added for a single score, but from the limited experience I had of lopsided bases then, I'd guess probably not. Add up all the absolute errors, and if it's below a threshold you match.
In late 2015 defenceless, and indeed x.5 bases, were useless and often harmful. We ran into defenceless bases maybe 3 or 4 times. Each time we were visibly stronger up top. That high offence was ranking at the top of the offence, moving the rest down, and the best match gave us an obvious advantage - either an extra TH10, or more often TH9s that were simply better than theirs.
Note that even longer ago, in 2014, offence didn't account for so much - hence the original rise of the defenceless and x.5. It was visibly increased in the first half of 2015 and they stopped matching so well. And SC confirmed in the MM update early this year that they had been treated equally before that point.
New system of MM: Basically works the same, but with some changes and additions. And there are 2 which are relevant here:
(1) SC stated that in future offence would count for less. So when they calculate the offence difference for each base with it's (offence) mirror, they'll divide by some number, so it counts for less than a difference in defence in the overall check. They didn't say how much, but from observation it seems to be a LOT. So quite large differences in offence - eg a complete TH of offence, might only count as the same difference as a handful of gun upgrades, if that.
Semi-ignoring offence was just a bad idea. SC did explain why - they were trying to fix a very rare, and harder form of offence engineering - but it was a mistake. In trying to fix a loophole almost no-one had ever seen they opened up a very obvious, very easy, and very widely applicable, way of gaining a large advantage. If offence is more or less ignored and clans A and B have the same defence, then the clan with the better offence clearly will have an advantage. Doh!
(2) SC also added a comparison of the average weights of the 2 clans. Despite the endless comments about it being a "whole clan comparison" on here, it never was. Until the update the MM never calculated the averages at all. Well it does now, as an additional check.
The reason for this was to nerf the large engineering advantage that the maxer clans had in 2015 (yes, those foaming-at-the-mouth anti-engineer clans). There's a problem with the mirror checking because of population effects. In practice there isn't a continuous range of bases out there. For example a max TH8 is 55k gold weight, TH9 is 70k gold weight, TH10 is 90k gold weight. When someone upgrades to TH9 or 10 and adds the new guns, the defence weight jumps hugely in a few days. It then takes masses of loot, and time, to do the last upgrades, which add relatively little. So there are lots of 65k-69k TH9s out there, with more or less max guns, working on walls and heroes until they get bored. But once they go to TH10 and drop infernos, their weight very rapidly jumps to 80k+. And this could be exploited by engineering: if you fill a clan with a lot of 70k truly maxed TH9s (30/30 heroes, lava walls), the old system tried to match each to a mirror as closely as possible. Matching to an 80k+ TH10 is a bad match: 10k to 15k of error. 1 or 2 errors like this might just fit within the overall total allowed error if the rest was perfect; but it was rare. However, matching to a typical TH9 at 67k or 68k is only a 2k or 3k error. It's very easy to get a match to a TH9: and the max TH9 will always have a slight advantage. Do this for a whole clan, and the advantage was usually overwhelming. They weren't hideous mismatches - each base was kind of similar to it's mirror, but when 1 clan is a little better in all 40 spots, there is usually only 1 winner.
Now this change has worked perfectly in correcting that problem. In 2015 it was the most common matching problem we had: one clan being slightly better everywhere. We never see that now.
But... because of this additional check (and others), SC presumably must have slightly loosened the lane-by-lane matching. If not, adding more and more checks would mean clans probably never matched. And the check of averages has disadvantages: because the bases at the bottom, in mixed wars, are basically irrelevant, if clan B is weaker at the bottom and stronger at the top they can have the same average, but clan B still has an advantage.
SC did say they would emphasise the top of the matching. It did indeed look like they did (exactly how is a different explanation) but really only by percentages. The top always had more impact, and they promoted that effect a bit, but not enough. In reality the last 10% or 20% of the bases need to be totally ignored.
The average check has been a good thing often. For 2 "normal" clans it has visibly improved the matches. The problem is when a clan puts a few very low fillers - or, worse defenceless - at the bottom (where they are irrelevant) and are given a bit extra up top as compensation. SC don't need to roll back this change, just modify it to be the average of maybe the top 80% of the clan, ignoring the last 20%.
So, back to your question: how you have a TH9 up top, and they have a more or less max TH10?
The biggest problem is when the enemy sticks some defenceless on the bottom. Their huge offence is, of course, an advantage, but is basically ignored. Instead the system just treats them as TH3s or thereabouts. That's a bad start, but doesn't explain the TH10 defence.
The answer is that the system knows that it's not a great match. Even before the MM update you could get a TH10 matching your TH9s if the system wasn't finding a better match. Our junior clan was always TH9s on top, and would get a proper TH10 maybe 1 war in 5. And sometimes it was maxed. In big wars it wasn't game over, but was obviously a blow.
However that engineered clan has an average defence weight that's a good match to yours. The mirror check isn't great: bad error in #1 spot maybe. Having relaxed the mirror check somewhat to permit the other checks, this can just about creep through if necessary. Now looking from the perspective of the engineered clan (say 1 max TH10, some TH9s/8s and then a load of defenceless), they can't match another clan of 1TH10, some TH9s/8s and maybe even 7s: because the defenceless has pulled the average down so far, that they'll fail the average check. So they sit in the matchmaking pool until the server finds some poor victim clan, and decides that a spot-on average check, and a borderline mirror-check is the best it can do. And you get thumped by a clan you can't possibly beat.
Nice straw man. This sort of thing happens sometimes, and when it does it's very clearly a loss for the opponents...but how often does that actually happen? I mean, I read almost every thread in general, and I can't recall the last time that somebody came on to complain about an engineered opponent with a th 2 lvls higher base on top with max defenses that was impossible to even 1*. That is, at best, tangential to the discussion at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterOz
What people complain about in general, and what we're seeing in this thread, is somebody complaining about a defenseless base on bottom that can 3* his 1 and 2. That's it. The guy also disparaged his opponents top bases and even said they weren't very good. He doesn't have an unwinnable war, he just has a severe disadvantage on his 1/2 bases and possibly a tossup or slight advange on 3-6, it's hard to say without going over to his clan to actually look.
Perhaps I'd feel differently about this, but my clan just won a war like that 4 days ago. All th8 and below on both sides, but our opponents had a defensely th9 with double zap quake on the very bottom base. Easy 3* on our 1/2, then they just have to 3* rest of our 8's and it's game over, right? Not so fast, they missed one of our 8's and got a 99% 2* on it, and we got a perfect war. Win 45-44. It was frustrating when the war came up, but instead of making a thread on the forums and crying about it we went to work, got our stars, and won the war.
^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by orangemojo
And orangemojo knows, he engineers aggressively and likely sees engineered opponents in almost every war.
fyi, I've been in a 50v50 where opponent had defenseless 11's sitting at 47 and 48 with high heroes (not quite max but close). They ended up getting 149 stars in that war, and those defenseless made a big difference for them, but that is the only war I've seen out of ~ 75 that had something like that. And that clan was highly engineered from top to bottom, I'd say that they're the only "good" engineering clan I've ever encountered.
1 defenceless hardly makes an engineered clan. And if your bases are as low as TH8 it's relatively easy to get a perfect war yourself, negating their offence advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanw1995
What people are complaining about is when there are 3 or 4 defenceless at the bottom, and to get the average right the enemy has a strong TH9. Would your 15 TH8s have defeated a strong (near max guns and troops) TH9, 10 TH8s and 4 defenceless TH9s?
I'm not attacking you for the badge, or even attacking you at all. tbh I don't even know what "content creator" even means. I assume that it's something like a GASP and you play a lot, and that's fine. My concerns above were that you did not stick to the specific topic at hand that the OP brought up, and you instead brought up a truly extreme outlier situation that is a very small % of the total engineered clans out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterOz
As far as answering the question of how a max defense th10 can slip into a war vs an opponent with all th 9's, I'd say that's an easy one to answer. Dorsan had a really good thread about the mm algorithm a few weeks ago, I wish I'd bookmarked it to link now. In it, he described his own experience with the mm, and his explanation for how just such mismatches as you described above can happen. Basically, you want one outlier on top, a couple outliers on the bottom, and a whole slew of tightly-packed bases in the middle. So, for example:
1 max th10 88k weight
1 high th 9 68k
6 more 9's 63-67k weight
5 th 8's 45-55k
2 th 3's
The 10 and the 3's get ignored, and the variance score between them all would make it highly likely to find a match like:
9 th 9's
6 th 8's
It basically lets you take a very highly weighted base at the very top, one that will be tough to 1* and extremely tough to 2*, and slip it into a war with a non-engineered clan. Works the same for slipping a max 9 into a th8/7 war too.
In fact, in retrospect I did this once on accident in a 20v20, all of our th9's were upgrading heroes but 1, we had a bunch of 8's and 7's, plus several of us were working on alts that we threw in to get us to a 20v20 war. Probably something like:
1 th9 68k
7 th 8 mostly well-developed
6 th 7
couple of 6's
couple of 5's
couple of 4's
All of those bases on the bottom smoothed over that th9 at the top, and gave my clan a boring matchup that was a snoozefest for both sides. Opponent clan was:
8 th8, mostly max, all of their 8's were a couple thousand higher than ours
6 th7,
some 4/5/6 filler at the bottom, with a defenseless th6 with walls only, no traps/etc at all, sitting at 19.
Our enemies fought hard and got 58*, but we easily got 60* and were ashamed of our "perfect" war. If they hadn't had that defenseless th6 at 19 we would have felt a lot worse, but they were obviously working on future mismatches in their favor so we figured they got what they deserved. Still, no fun for us at least. We haven't run a war with just 1 th 9 since that one, and, now that I realize why that happened, I don't plan to do it again.
One other thing to keep in mind is that recent war record is taken into account with matchups, the more you win the more of a penalty you get from the MM, until eventually any clan will eventually start getting a huge mismatch every single war.
I have not seen anybody bring up the "3 or 4 defenseless at the bottom" issue in this thread, until you and MisterOz started talking about it. I've seen that in war as I mentioned, and it's a whole lot tougher to overcome than the example that the OP was using, but it's also really rare for most clans to see that sort of thing. Tight base spreads, no engineering yourself, and almost every single war will be against like th clans.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
My past few wars in my clan have been almost mirror image opponents, I mean literally our current war is 4 th9, 7 th 8, 4 th7, some 6's and 5's at the bottom for both sides. Well, I say that, enemy has one extra slightly rushed 9 sitting in the middle of their 8's, but their offense is in line with their 8's also so it's no advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirch3b21
You see what happens? Weak attackers see threads like this, and every time they lose a war they minutely examine their opponents bases for that one missing bomb that gave him an insurmountable advantage. Engineering is real, it happens a lot, but truly outstanding engineers who make war boring and unwinnable for the rest of us b/c they always match up with completely non-engineered clans are not nearly as common as some people would have us think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirch3b21
I'd get a whole lot of scouts in on their 1 before sending your 1 after him. My clan does that a lot, we'll clear everything from 2 down, or 4 down, or wherever the sharp break in defensive strength is, then use all remaining attacks to scout on top. Would be awesome to see you guys take them down with an 89 match win streak.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarDictator
That is a tough matchup for sure, but when you have a highly engineered base in your clan you're daring the MM to match you up with an opponent like that. And, let's be real here, all the th8 and below on both sides are getting 3*, right? Your opponents have 3 quality th9's at the top, you have 3 quality th9's at the top, but they'll have more shots at your 9's than you'll have a theirs. It's a difficult war for you, but FAR from unwinnable. And, especially if your th9 troops/heroes are better, I'd say that you have a good chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by StormHeart
Quote:
Originally Posted by knmmartijn
This is a really good discussion. I put my foot down about a month ago b/c we had so many people with poor war bases, every 7+ in our wars now has to have a good base, and the 8's and 9's have to really put thought into theirs now. However, I usually let our th6 and lower into war too, as long as they use both attacks every time, and I don't get too worked up about their bases. I figure that they'll get better if we let them war, and get some extra loot in most wars so that they can develop their bases faster, too. Once we get enough people in the th8+ range then I'm going to start doing more wars with just a 1 or 2 th spread, those always seem to be the most fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrags