The Future: Game polarized into Engineered Wars and Farm Wars.

The biggest issue with these very low defense/high offense accounts is that they will lead the game away from building bases very quickly.

If everyone who wants the best chance at winning a war has to play the engineering game full tilt, then we will see the non-engineered bases being removed from wars and more and more offense-based accounts entering wars.

This will happen virally, just like modding happened in war clans.

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders. Modder accounts grew exponentially and non-modders basically lost a lot of the fun in wars they used to have. Non-modders became the "gowipers", the "2 star" attackers, and were showing up in wars less frequently because it's not fun losing wars and not getting three stars like that modder.

So I could see this engineering approach leading to a similar evolution: competitive clans will use more and more extreme high offense accounts to try and remain competitive.

The only problem is that half of the game that SC created was based on farming and developing your village's defenses, not just the troops. Asking everyone who likes developing their base in that half of the game to only do (phoney, boring) farm wars would not be a very good game result, would it?

Anyway, that's the evolution I see happening over the next year if nothing is done: the game will be polarized into Engineered Wars and Farm Wars .

Take your pick but don't expect to see 'normal' defense+offense wars survive. It will all be about pathetically easy 3 star attacks on lower TH/low defense bases or going for a spoon-fed one star loot raid in farm wars.

The smart strategists will win, but the real art of war attacking and defending will be lost.

That's my concern. Am I wrong?

Was there a memo I missed? Apparently the forum chicken littles have moved on from Valks and Bowlers to engineered bases. The sky is not falling. Engineered bases have been around for years and suddenly they are a grave problem. lol.

PS: In case you are wondering, I don't consider Engineered accounts or Farm Wars to be cheating. Modding is cheating.

You are wrong that the highly competitive will have to use engineering. The highly competitive now is defined as th10+ only or even th11 only. Engineered bases in that category would only be a handicap.

That bieng said, making an engineered base isnt easy. It deters most people from building it. You will not believe the number of dead defenseless bases i see in bronze. Its insane. Many quit their engineered journey below th8 or stop at it.

Also SC will take measures to curve extreme engineering. But keep in mind, it will be nothing like the "witch tragedy". Itll be more like the hog nerf

Sorry Bilius. not criticizing you, but the forum is ridiculous this afternoon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billius

I'm basically in a Th11 clan, I never see engineered opponents at our level. I'm just wondering where the game is heading.

---

If you have a quality clan you won't see them. It's an easy 3 star. The complainers are mostly rushers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orangemojo

You are wrong that the highly competitive will have to use engineering. The highly competitive now is defined as th10+ only or even th11 only. Engineered bases in that category would only be a handicap.

That bieng said, making an engineered base isnt easy. It deters most people from building it. You will not believe the number of dead defenseless bases i see in bronze. Its insane. Many quit their engineered journey below th8 or stop at it.

Also SC will take measures to curve extreme engineering. But keep in mind, it will be nothing like the "witch tragedy". Itll be more like the hog nerf

---

I don't doubt the 'smartness' of engineering or even farm war strategies, I'm sure it's not an easy way to progress. I'm just looking out a year and wondering where the mid Th levels will be and how wars will look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fiscal

Sorry Bilius. not criticizing you, but the forum is ridiculous this afternoon.

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No worries, feel free to criticize, it's not a topic with sure-fire answers. I have no experience building an engineered account or competing in an engineered clan war. I'm just trying to go up to 30,000 feet and ask where is the game heading?

You're definitely correct, very little doubt about it. Something will be done, it's just a matter of whether SC waits until this problem hits critical mass or decides to do something before that point.

It is unlikely Billius, we represent a small proportion of clashers, although we are the ones that shout the loudest. The advice given out in clans not connected in forums will still be max out your th level then move onto the next one and repeat.

Engineering bases does not bother me. I don't complain when I come across someone who doesn't understand the game as well as I do and are very very poorly rushed giving me a huge advantage. So, I don't feel I should complain when someone understands the game better than I do and has an advantage over me. Besides, the more popular engineering becomes, the more poorly engineered bases we'll see where the offense does not make up for lack of defense.

Something has to be done about no defense/engineering or the game at the lower th levels will go to 100% the way of engineered wars.

I completely agree that in todays CoC if you war, you are stupid not to go the engineered route. But as with th sniping...is that really the way SC wants the game to be played? I find it hilarious that people will go to such lengths to gain an advantage in a simple mobile game.

What ever happened to you put your best team on the field and we will put ours and see who wins?

Of course at th11 we don't see a lot of this but if SC wants to keep the game alive with fresh new blood having a good experience they will have to do something about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fiscal

Was there a memo I missed? Apparently the forum chicken littles have moved on from Valks and Bowlers to engineered bases. The sky is not falling. Engineered bases have been around for years and suddenly they are a grave problem. lol.

---

They are now a problem like the OP stated. They have grown exponentialy

Make an many engineered bases you can. It's smart and a good strategy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THELUCKKING

They are now a problem like the OP stated. They have grown exponentialy

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uh no. engineered th8 and above dont appear out of the blue randomly. Unless ofcourse people are complaining about losing to engineered th7s and whatnot...

theyve always been around but people need a new scapegoat.

btw i like your compromise on engineered bases. i fully support that but as impossible said "compromising with engineers is like negotiating with terrorists"

I highly doubt this. Not enough people know about engineering to actually do it. And then many wouldn't have the time to create a second engineered account. Very few people actually engineer, and I've only seen one engineered clan in my entire clash experience. Most people will simply not have the time or effort necessary to engineer, and thus engineering won't become that prevalent. The so called elite war clans may be affected, but are such a small part of the community that I doubt it will spread.

I Hope you are wrong Billius and my gut tells me your fears will prove to be unfounded but we will see. I have,so far, seen only a couple of clans with the bottom bases being defenceless but in a large clan it made so little difference. Check the forum event clans' most recent win. Bottom 3 enemy bases defenceless and we rolled them over. The interesting thing was we faced the same guys 6 weeks ago without the defenceless bases and only won on a tiebreak. So not only did their attempts to effect their match fail it also seemed to weaken their clan.
There will always be a third group which is fair play war clans. There will be tens of thousands of them, far more than there will be farm clans and Engineered clans....we survived December Gate, Moddinggate, Heronerfgate, Hognerfgate and Sandalsandsocksgate. We will survive this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Holps

I Hope you are wrong Billius and my gut tells me your fears will prove to be unfounded but we will see. I have,so far, seen only a couple of clans with the bottom bases being defenceless but in a large clan it made so little difference. Check the forum event clans' most recent win. Bottom 3 enemy bases defenceless and we rolled them over. The interesting thing was we faced the same guys 6 weeks ago without the defenceless bases and only won on a tiebreak. So not only did their attempts to effect their match fail it also seemed to weaken their clan.
There will always be a third group which is fair play war clans. There will be tens of thousands of them, far more than there will be farm clans and Engineered clans....we survived December Gate, Moddinggate, Heronerfgate, Hognerfgate and Sandalsandsocksgate. We will survive this.

---

Fair play war clans. All war clans that dont mod. Yes they will survive :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Holps

I Hope you are wrong Billius and my gut tells me your fears will prove to be unfounded but we will see. I have,so far, seen only a couple of clans with the bottom bases being defenceless but in a large clan it made so little difference. Check the forum event clans' most recent win. Bottom 3 enemy bases defenceless and we rolled them over. The interesting thing was we faced the same guys 6 weeks ago without the defenceless bases and only won on a tiebreak. So not only did their attempts to effect their match fail it also seemed to weaken their clan.
There will always be a third group which is fair play war clans. There will be tens of thousands of them, far more than there will be farm clans and Engineered clans....we survived December Gate, Moddinggate, Heronerfgate, Hognerfgate and Sandalsandsocksgate. We will survive this.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orangemojo

Fair play war clans. All war clans that dont mod. Yes they will survive :)

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A Fair Play sister war clan, Centum Testudo, apparently just had a war against an engineered clan and won despite a perception that the engineering clan had an "advantage".
Now Testudo is studious on war strategies, is competitive and has a mix of TH ranges. The fear I have is that a FPC like this, over time, will start to question whether they need to do a "better job" at engineering to stay competitive. It only takes 5-10 wars against this type of opponent to kickstart the process. Anyone who was in a FPC that turned to the mod solution knows that the pendulum can swing quickly in war clans. Just look at how quickly the meta changes on warbases and attack strategies. I have gone through 3 generations of warbases in the past 4 weeks, for example.

So, I hope too that the game stays full of variety and doesn't polarize. But after watching the emergence of modding, I am more sanguine these days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotTheRealPaul

I highly doubt this. Not enough people know about engineering to actually do it. And then many wouldn't have the time to create a second engineered account. Very few people actually engineer, and I've only seen one engineered clan in my entire clash experience. Most people will simply not have the time or effort necessary to engineer, and thus engineering won't become that prevalent. The so called elite war clans may be affected, but are such a small part of the community that I doubt it will spread.

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Look up Minimax _______ insert any name here.. there are hundreds of those clans full of engineered accounts...

My Nightmareguild is reasonably engineered.. though we have mostly low level players so we are far from an end game example.. I think we have about 40 accounts spread between a few clans that have respectable th9/10/11 attack power with low mirrors.. not all bunched into one clan but spread out a few in each to help insure that the enemy #1 always falls...

I'd like to know what clan you found that you felt was engineered? I'm always looking to meet other like minded clashers


I looked up one called WAR ENGINEERS (omg dont look.. I wont say anything negative about them.. but suffice to say.. they are NOT what I thought they were.. lol) Perhaps thats their profession in life.. it certainly isnt in game...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billius

A Fair Play sister war clan, Centum Testudo, apparently just had a war against an engineered clan and won despite a perception that the engineering clan had an "advantage".
Now Testudo is studious on war strategies, is competitive and has a mix of TH ranges. The fear I have is that a FPC like this, over time, will start to question whether they need to do a "better job" at engineering to stay competitive. It only takes 5-10 wars against this type of opponent to kickstart the process. Anyone who was in a FPC that turned to the mod solution knows that the pendulum can swing quickly in war clans. Just look at how quickly the meta changes on warbases and attack strategies. I have gone through 3 generations of warbases in the past 4 weeks, for example.

So, I hope too that the game stays full of variety and doesn't polarize. But after watching the emergence of modding, I am more sanguine these days.

---

Fix is very easy...

Set up an IN GAME CLAN NETWORK system -- where one player can make a network - set other players as admins of the network - then allow those admins to ADD or remove clans to that network in game / or via forums...

example:


Fair play network:

All fair play clans join the in game network -- and from here on out -any war search they do can be

option 1: In network only
option 2: any network
option 3: select other potential networks your willing to match with.



and BOOM.. there you go.. problem solved... allt he Orange league/ jedi network / elite war clans - everyone can sign up for their own special network and agree to onlyl match in network... (SAME matching rules apply... only able to attack the same clan once every 3 or 4 wars etc...)

this will easily allow all those complainers to avoid engineered clans completely...

it will keep the farm war clans always matching in network...

and everyone who has a problem playing with 'others' -- will be able to keep themselves apart and enjoy the game more...

Town Hall sniping was removed because that was not how the game was intended to be played. Pretty sure engineering bases to gain extreme advantages is the same thing. War was not intended to be this way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billius

The smart strategists will win, but the real art of war attacking and defending will be lost.

That's my concern. Am I wrong?

---

Farm war is a smart strategy. The real war happen in MM. You called 24 hours to plan 2 attacks is a real art of war attacking?

Yes, all High-end war clans knew this now, and nobody can stop this wave.
Because if your clan don`t push this idea and rule members to, clan will lose very often after a few months later.
High-end players suggest (or force) lower level players not to build inferno and xbow.
It`s ongoing now, and situation getting worse by time.
This is .5 players situation.

And the most ridiculous account is war babies (defenceless base)
But that kinds of accounts needs to feed lots of gems to grow up to th11,
and that`s money.

My thoughts on the matter:

We had two different directions that this engineering could have gone in this forum.

1. People acknowledged and accepted as a strategic maneuver everyone could have gone off made their own minis into engineered bases and this forum would be filled with discussions on how engineer better, how to stack your clan a bit better, and discussions would evolve as people find different combinations working better than others.

Or

2. We could have people complain how they lost and thought it was unfair and how SC has to nerf it, and turn this forum into a toxic dump of tedious complaint thread after complaint thread which basically complains about how others are choosing to play the game.

Good job on choosing 2 and continuing on with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

My thoughts on the matter:

We had two different directions that this engineering could have gone in this forum.

1. People acknowledged and accepted as a strategic maneuver everyone could have gone off made their own minis into engineered bases and this forum would be filled with discussions on how engineer better, how to stack your clan a bit better, and discussions would evolve as people find different combinations working better than others.

Or

2. We could have people complain how they lost and thought it was unfair and how SC has to nerf it, and turn this forum into a toxic dump of tedious complaint thread after complaint thread which basically complains about how others are choosing to play the game.

Good job on choosing 2 and continuing on with it.

---

Or
3. Pro-engineering people could be honest & admit they are taking unfair advantage of people who play the game differently. They could stop attacking every person who disagrees with their point of view, and most of the toxicity here would dissipate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TH10clasher

Or
3. Pro-engineering people could be honest & admit they are taking unfair advantage of people who play the game differently. They could stop attacking every person who disagrees with their point of view, and most of the toxicity here would dissipate.

---

And herein lies the heart of the issue:

Whilst you try to win an argument about the player's motivation and try to gain the moral higher ground, you discuss less about clash of clans and more about other players.

Last I checked I this was clash of clans forum not clash of clash of clans players, these debates much like mass troops debates is complaining about how others play rather than the actual game itself.

That's how this forum seems to be these days, legitimate threads on actual the game have replies in the 0 - single digits whilst obvious troll threads and anything to do with nerfs/engineering/mods is like a new battle ground for verbal clashing with other players.

Engineering as we know it (not building defenses) is a bad strategy. Just look at the top players of the game / the forum... Always people on top who understand the value of a defense. Who do you rather go up against: Me/Sin/IdbGod... Or VikingChief/Dorsan/some other kid?

Farm Wars aren't a problem imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billius

The biggest issue with these very low defense/high offense accounts is that they will lead the game away from building bases very quickly.

If everyone who wants the best chance at winning a war has to play the engineering game full tilt, then we will see the non-engineered bases being removed from wars and more and more offense-based accounts entering wars.

This will happen virally, just like modding happened in war clans.

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders. Modder accounts grew exponentially and non-modders basically lost a lot of the fun in wars they used to have. Non-modders became the "gowipers", the "2 star" attackers, and were showing up in wars less frequently because it's not fun losing wars and not getting three stars like that modder.

So I could see this engineering approach leading to a similar evolution: competitive clans will use more and more extreme high offense accounts to try and remain competitive.

The only problem is that half of the game that SC created was based on farming and developing your village's defenses, not just the troops. Asking everyone who likes developing their base in that half of the game to only do (phoney, boring) farm wars would not be a very good game result, would it?

Anyway, that's the evolution I see happening over the next year if nothing is done: the game will be polarized into Engineered Wars and Farm Wars .

Take your pick but don't expect to see 'normal' defense+offense wars survive. It will all be about pathetically easy 3 star attacks on lower TH/low defense bases or going for a spoon-fed one star loot raid in farm wars.

The smart strategists will win, but the real art of war attacking and defending will be lost.

That's my concern. Am I wrong?

---

Supercell said they will be nerfing engineered or lopsided bases, so I dont know why you see this future? Unless you know something most dont?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holps

I Hope you are wrong Billius and my gut tells me your fears will prove to be unfounded but we will see. I have,so far, seen only a couple of clans with the bottom bases being defenceless but in a large clan it made so little difference. Check the forum event clans' most recent win. Bottom 3 enemy bases defenceless and we rolled them over. The interesting thing was we faced the same guys 6 weeks ago without the defenceless bases and only won on a tiebreak. So not only did their attempts to effect their match fail it also seemed to weaken their clan.
There will always be a third group which is fair play war clans. There will be tens of thousands of them, far more than there will be farm clans and Engineered clans....we survived December Gate, Moddinggate, Heronerfgate, Hognerfgate and Sandalsandsocksgate. We will survive this.

---

Wait you guys are talking like the engineering nerf is off? Have i missed something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

Wait you guys are talking like the engineering nerf is off? Have i missed something?

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You missed that the thread was necroed and those comments were pre-lopsided comments from SC...

Bit of a generalisation I think. All depends what townhall makeup you're running. For a large portion of the clash community, engineered bases are not an issue whatsoever. Then there's some clans running more mixed lineups that attract such bases.

Still cant work out why people engineer bases. Can't imagine anything more boring in this game then getting consistently mismatched. Arranged wars where it's a 100% even playing field ftw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Butthax

Bit of a generalisation I think. All depends what townhall makeup you're running. For a large portion of the clash community, engineered bases are not an issue whatsoever. Then there's some clans running more mixed lineups that attract such bases.

Still cant work out why people engineer bases. Can't imagine anything more boring in this game then getting consistently mismatched. Arranged wars where it's a 100% even playing field ftw.

---

It will have to be unlocked as a clan perk for a level 3 clan or something or people will just use their 2nd accounts to create clans to feed loot to their main accounts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smashville

It will have to be unlocked as a clan perk for a level 3 clan or something or people will just use their 2nd accounts to create clans to feed loot to their main accounts.

---

Im talking about the current state of arranged wars, spreadsheets, external Comms etc.

but yea easier arranged wars would be nice

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billius

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders. Modder accounts grew exponentially and non-modders basically lost a lot of the fun in wars they used to have. Non-modders became the "gowipers", the "2 star" attackers, and were showing up in wars less frequently because it's not fun losing wars and not getting three stars like that modder.

So I could see this engineering approach leading to a similar evolution: competitive clans will use more and more extreme high offense accounts to try and remain competitive.

---

This section of your post is interesting. Are you saying that SC ignored the modding problem and people were "forced" to fight fire with fire? We all saw how modding went and how modders were dealt with. If people were "forced" to do it as you say, is it fair to push them out of the game?

Are people being "forced" again because they have to build lopsided bases to stay competitive? I do know that modding is against the ToS and lopsided bases are not, but the issue remains. SC drags their feet about an issue and players have to find workarounds to stay competitive (and risk getting burned in the future).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billius

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders.

---

Of course, there is some truth in this. However, I would add the following :-

1) The 'Elite' Fair play clans (and yes, I hate that word) want arranged wars. They want a competitive war where the outcome is decided by skilled fair play attacking, and skilled base building. Yes, of course they want to win, but the competitive exciting war is what they really crave. A lot of work goes into trying to arrange these wars, and sometimes it just doesn't match, which is frustrating.
Typically these kind of wars can be won by either clan, it depends who performs better on the day.
2) Engineers seek an advantage before war search. They have a 'win at all cost' mentality (without cheating). Engineered clans do NOT want to match the Elite clans, and vice versa to be honest.

If engineering increases (virally), as you have suggested, and is quite possible, I don't see the above changing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by savestamps

This section of your post is interesting. Are you saying that SC ignored the modding problem and people were "forced" to fight fire with fire? We all saw how modding went and how modders were dealt with. If people were "forced" to do it as you say, is it fair to push them out of the game?

Are people being "forced" again because they have to build lopsided bases to stay competitive? I do know that modding is against the ToS and lopsided bases are not, but the issue remains. SC drags their feet about an issue and players have to find workarounds to stay competitive (and risk getting burned in the future).

---

No one was for ex to do anything. They felt the need too do it. Its 2 completely different concepts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butthax

Bit of a generalisation I think. All depends what townhall makeup you're running. For a large portion of the clash community, engineered bases are not an issue whatsoever. Then there's some clans running more mixed lineups that attract such bases.

Still cant work out why people engineer bases. Can't imagine anything more boring in this game then getting consistently mismatched. Arranged wars where it's a 100% even playing field ftw.

---

What are you using as your basis for the above statement?

Yay im actually in the necro post not the necro for once

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blombardo

Fix is very easy...

Set up an IN GAME CLAN NETWORK system -- where one player can make a network - set other players as admins of the network - then allow those admins to ADD or remove clans to that network in game / or via forums...

example:


Fair play network:

All fair play clans join the in game network -- and from here on out -any war search they do can be

option 1: In network only
option 2: any network
option 3: select other potential networks your willing to match with.



and BOOM.. there you go.. problem solved... allt he Orange league/ jedi network / elite war clans - everyone can sign up for their own special network and agree to onlyl match in network... (SAME matching rules apply... only able to attack the same clan once every 3 or 4 wars etc...)

this will easily allow all those complainers to avoid engineered clans completely...

it will keep the farm war clans always matching in network...

and everyone who has a problem playing with 'others' -- will be able to keep themselves apart and enjoy the game more...

---

This is a cool idea! Might need some tweaks to help the MM find matching clans.
perhaps have war search MM once every hour on the hour? So all the clans that click search throughout the hour are checked for matches at the same time.

what i need to do to find these engineered clans and farm war clans.
Why i fighted 300 wars for 1.5+ years and did not see any, just usual clans like ours.
seems like wars are soooo polarized into something, just didnt notice yet


edit:
80% of our 300 wars was 10-15-20. I was always only one with 0.5\0.75 base... Didn't encounter anything but normal clans. Now we doing 25-30 wars for last few months. Still no. So yeah, i also dont feel any of this "war polarization" at all.

LOL I see an old thread of mine from July has been necrobumped by someone.

Since that time, I believe SC has dropped some hints that they would be looking it the "lopsided base" issue (their term, not mine).

I don't really get involved in Engineering debates because I have not been in an engineered war at Th11. It was just me expressing my concern for the future of wars as "Fair and Fun". That's why I spoke up about the regular clan/Farm War clan match-ups as well.

Bumping it again...I hope that we see something from SC with the final release, or at least notice some changes to the mm to address this (assuming they don't wish to publicize the changes in order to make it harder to reverse engineer them).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billius

The biggest issue with these very low defense/high offense accounts is that they will lead the game away from building bases very quickly.

If everyone who wants the best chance at winning a war has to play the engineering game full tilt, then we will see the non-engineered bases being removed from wars and more and more offense-based accounts entering wars.

This will happen virally, just like modding happened in war clans.

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders. Modder accounts grew exponentially and non-modders basically lost a lot of the fun in wars they used to have. Non-modders became the "gowipers", the "2 star" attackers, and were showing up in wars less frequently because it's not fun losing wars and not getting three stars like that modder.

So I could see this engineering approach leading to a similar evolution: competitive clans will use more and more extreme high offense accounts to try and remain competitive.

The only problem is that half of the game that SC created was based on farming and developing your village's defenses, not just the troops. Asking everyone who likes developing their base in that half of the game to only do (phoney, boring) farm wars would not be a very good game result, would it?

Anyway, that's the evolution I see happening over the next year if nothing is done: the game will be polarized into Engineered Wars and Farm Wars .

Take your pick but don't expect to see 'normal' defense+offense wars survive. It will all be about pathetically easy 3 star attacks on lower TH/low defense bases or going for a spoon-fed one star loot raid in farm wars.

The smart strategists will win, but the real art of war attacking and defending will be lost.

That's my concern. Am I wrong?

---

Absolutely not

Engineered bases don't bother me, they only have one cannon how hard can it be to 3 star them stop complaining it annoying

It's not a problem, within the rules, and not going away.

People just want everyone to play the game "their way" which is total ♥♥.

You really want to take away the freedom to build a base the way people see fit? That's half the fun! And there are consequences that come with engineered bases.

It's fair and not going away. Don't like it? Go play boom beach or hay day

[QUOTE=Billius;7856018]The biggest issue with these very low defense/high offense accounts is that they will lead the game away from building bases very quickly.

If everyone who wants the best chance at winning a war has to play the engineering game full tilt, then we will see the non-engineered bases being removed from wars and more and more offense-based accounts entering wars.

This will happen virally, just like modding happened in war clans.

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders. Modder accounts grew exponentially and non-modders basically lost a lot of the fun in wars they used to have. Non-modders became the "gowipers", the "2 star" attackers, and were showing up in wars less frequently because it's not fun losing wars and not getting three stars like that modder.

So I could see this engineering approach leading to a similar evolution: competitive clans will use more and more extreme high offense accounts to try and remain competitive.

The only problem is that half of the game that SC created was based on farming and developing your village's defenses, not just the troops. Asking everyone who likes developing their base in that half of the game to only do (phoney, boring) farm wars would not be a very good game result, would it?

Anyway, that's the evolution I see happening over the next year if nothing is done: the game will be polarized into Engineered Wars and Farm Wars .

Take your pick but don't expect to see 'normal' defense+offense wars survive. It will all be about pathetically easy 3 star attacks on lower TH/low defense bases or going for a spoon-fed one star loot raid in farm wars.

The smart strategists will win, but the real art of war attacking and defending will be lost.

That's my concern. Am I wrong?[/QUOT

I think it's already happening, the trend is obvious and will accelerate as more people wake up and smell the coffee. Only exception is balanced offense / defense will still work at TH 11 (top of the food chain only)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Runny

It's not a problem, within the rules, and not going away.

People just want everyone to play the game "their way" which is total ♥♥.

You really want to take away the freedom to build a base the way people see fit? That's half the fun! And there are consequences that come with engineered bases.

It's fair and not going away. Don't like it? Go play boom beach or hay day

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Are you sure? SC could change how war weight is calculated in a blink of the eye. It's not like they've never nerfed a strategy before lol

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Originally Posted by Fiscal

Was there a memo I missed? Apparently the forum chicken littles have moved on from Valks and Bowlers to engineered bases. The sky is not falling. Engineered bases have been around for years and suddenly they are a grave problem. lol.

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Exactly! Years have gone by, and suddenly , last few months, this is a major problem.

also, I will build the defenses that I want to build, some are great, some are junk, some aren't worth the war weight for the defense they provide. If we all have the same defenses and levels at each TH , THAT would be boring.

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Originally Posted by STevil35

I think it's already happening, the trend is obvious and will accelerate as more people wake up and smell the coffee. Only exception is balanced offense / defense will still work at TH 11 (top of the food chain only)

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Spot on. Self correcting problem (slowly, very slow ) , as some people drop defense after offense is finished, "moving on" from .5 or .75. The engineer will slowly fall behind and find it harder to match, unless there is a new crop of suckers squatting at max th8 and max th9

The "Featured" clan on clashofclans.com/clans is a freaking engineered clan. I mean great job in the vetting process SC, especially when you claim to be "doing something" about lopsided bases. Our 2 (a true max th9) just got 3 starred by enemies 17, a defenseless th10.

Guys, just find yourself a Max TH11 and someone who does get a defenseless TH11,preferably someone with money to burn. That will help a LOT in war.

Since everyone have the freedom to build their own Village as they prefer, what should change is the matchmaking algorithm: it shouldn't be based on offense or defense weight, but it should evaluate the Real war ability of a clan. For example using Clan XP, if Clan XP really were the war ability. (Like I wrote here: http://forum.supercell.com/showthrea...ct-MATCHMAKING)

i dont think this will ever happen.

farm wars are only for the people that hate wars, engineered wars will probably be more common but it wont affect th9+ wars apart from a few .5s

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Originally Posted by Billius

The biggest issue with these very low defense/high offense accounts is that they will lead the game away from building bases very quickly.

If everyone who wants the best chance at winning a war has to play the engineering game full tilt, then we will see the non-engineered bases being removed from wars and more and more offense-based accounts entering wars.

This will happen virally, just like modding happened in war clans.

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders. Modder accounts grew exponentially and non-modders basically lost a lot of the fun in wars they used to have. Non-modders became the "gowipers", the "2 star" attackers, and were showing up in wars less frequently because it's not fun losing wars and not getting three stars like that modder.

So I could see this engineering approach leading to a similar evolution: competitive clans will use more and more extreme high offense accounts to try and remain competitive.

The only problem is that half of the game that SC created was based on farming and developing your village's defenses, not just the troops. Asking everyone who likes developing their base in that half of the game to only do (phoney, boring) farm wars would not be a very good game result, would it?

Anyway, that's the evolution I see happening over the next year if nothing is done: the game will be polarized into Engineered Wars and Farm Wars .

Take your pick but don't expect to see 'normal' defense+offense wars survive. It will all be about pathetically easy 3 star attacks on lower TH/low defense bases or going for a spoon-fed one star loot raid in farm wars.

The smart strategists will win, but the real art of war attacking and defending will be lost.

That's my concern. Am I wrong?

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no sir,100 percent truth. ​AGREED

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Originally Posted by STevil35

Are you sure? SC could change how war weight is calculated in a blink of the eye. It's not like they've never nerfed a strategy before lol

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They absolutely could, but that would be the nail in the coffin.

SC is smarter than that

I am not in an elite war clan, far from it, although we war constantly.

in my opinion, it is already the case that, if you know the game well enough to know about war weight, then the critical war issue becomes about out engineering the other clan. Yes, you need a couple of maxed people at the top, because you need defences, but your clan has a much better chance of winning when your lowly ranked engineered accounts, allow you to have more attacks at the top four of the other clan.

looking further out, as you are trying to do, the concept of engineered accounts will inevitably spread, as knowledge is gained by those who don't currently have it, and so, yes, it will become prevalent.

i hear people say that it's hard to build an engineered account, constantly attacked etc. but the people in our clan do it easily. It's all about gems paid for with hard cash. Which puts sc in a tough spot. Nerf engineering by changing war match making and it can hit their income AND make a lot of people angry who lose the benefit they paid hard cash for.

and make no mistake, we WANT sc to make money. It's what pays for the games development.

short answer, I think you are right and on the whole, I don't think it's such a good thing.

solution? Perhaps a whole series of mini nerfs for engineered accounts in match making, such that players are weaned off the addiction to engineering very slowly.

My biggest issue with engineering is that it must be thought out from the beginning. An engineering village can eventual become a maxer if they want. But a maxer can never revert to engineering unless they wait for a couple new town halls to come out.

Was matchmaking always fair? No. But it seems like the tweeks they made have bred a numerous amount of engineering villages. What would happen if they decided that with this next update offense in wars will severely be weighted instead of defenses? Engineering villages would be dead in the water.

I don't advocate the above change. What I would like to see is the ability for a maxer to become an engineer. Allow us to delete buildings. Once deleted we can purchase them back in the shop as a level one building. This will allow ANYONE to tweak their war weight.

Some of us are casual gamers. I started casually and maxed everything. It wasn't until I started warring at TH9 that I cared or knew about the strategy of upgrading. Should I be penalized for that? No. Should I have to start a new village to do it right? Waste of time for me personally.

Removing buildings would make villages flexible and might also pocket SC quite a bit of money as people test their village war weights.

TL;DR: Add flexibility to villages so we aren't forced to certain play style depending on the current matchmaking algorithm.

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Originally Posted by Billius

The biggest issue with these very low defense/high offense accounts is that they will lead the game away from building bases very quickly.

If everyone who wants the best chance at winning a war has to play the engineering game full tilt, then we will see the non-engineered bases being removed from wars and more and more offense-based accounts entering wars.

This will happen virally, just like modding happened in war clans.

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders. Modder accounts grew exponentially and non-modders basically lost a lot of the fun in wars they used to have. Non-modders became the "gowipers", the "2 star" attackers, and were showing up in wars less frequently because it's not fun losing wars and not getting three stars like that modder.

So I could see this engineering approach leading to a similar evolution: competitive clans will use more and more extreme high offense accounts to try and remain competitive.

The only problem is that half of the game that SC created was based on farming and developing your village's defenses, not just the troops. Asking everyone who likes developing their base in that half of the game to only do (phoney, boring) farm wars would not be a very good game result, would it?

Anyway, that's the evolution I see happening over the next year if nothing is done: the game will be polarized into Engineered Wars and Farm Wars .

Take your pick but don't expect to see 'normal' defense+offense wars survive. It will all be about pathetically easy 3 star attacks on lower TH/low defense bases or going for a spoon-fed one star loot raid in farm wars.

The smart strategists will win, but the real art of war attacking and defending will be lost.

That's my concern. Am I wrong?

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you are on a th11 clan and you never see them so why you are whining?everyone have a freedom to build there own villages if you are maxed th11 mind your own business.stop complaining.

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Originally Posted by Billius

The biggest issue with these very low defense/high offense accounts is that they will lead the game away from building bases very quickly.

If everyone who wants the best chance at winning a war has to play the engineering game full tilt, then we will see the non-engineered bases being removed from wars and more and more offense-based accounts entering wars.

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First off, whatever order you build a base, it takes the same amount of time. So this logic is false.

Second, low offense/high offense bases are not the reason people loose wars. It's always because they have low heroes, have maxed out their defense while having low level troops. This is ALWAYS the why.

Thirdly, defenseless bases do nothing as far as war advantage. ZERO advantage. Do the math.

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Originally Posted by Billius

Have we learned from history? To compete in war, the top fair play elite clans were basically forced to start having modders.

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Forced? In short, your logic is illogical and is based on presumed facts that engineered bases are a problem that must be addressed.

We just won vs an engeneer clan with ease, if you have good attacks ahouldnt be a problem, also even if you have an inferno or 2 doesnt mean i cant 3 stars you as th9 whehhehe! With the update now engeneer can get the fail loot, enjoy

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Originally Posted by iBork

Thirdly, defenseless bases do nothing as far as war advantage. ZERO advantage. Do the math.

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Zero advantage eh? So why are more and more people doing it? Just for the lulz?

I wish certain engineers could be more honest about their motives. Bold face lies just adds fuel to the fire.

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Originally Posted by Billius

The smart strategists will win, but the real art of war attacking and defending will be lost.

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You are 100% right. I am predicting the exact same thing as more and more clans are moving into this direction, be it to negate their opponents' engineering advantage or to create an unfair advantage over others themselves.

Moreover, people with "normal" accounts will most likely be expected/required to have multiple lopsided bases (.5, defenceless or other forms of engineering) in order to be accepted into major war clans since a good old-fashioned single-account guy with defences built would be considered a liability.

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Originally Posted by orangemojo

You are wrong that the highly competitive will have to use engineering. The highly competitive now is defined as th10+ only or even th11 only. Engineered bases in that category would only be a handicap.

That bieng said, making an engineered base isnt easy. It deters most people from building it.

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You are right that TH10/11 have less to gain from engineering although a clan full of 10.5's (with 1 max TH11 on top) would still be a major force to be reckoned with and would undoubtedly get many matches in their favour due to sandbagging. There are plenty of mixed clans though that benefit greatly from engineering and herein lies the problem as a lot of folks who look at the bigger picture see that this is not a healthy direction for the game to evolve.

Whether making an engineered base is easy or not is really not the point. Even if it were incredibly difficult (which is not the case) why should that justify an obviously unbalanced war and a major advantage over another clan?

And contrary to what you said, making an engineered base to the point where it turns into an asset in wars is not that difficult. A lot of clans have engineered bases already and those among us with absolutely no social/dating life and no real-life friends can even entertain entire engineered clans all by themselves to the point where they can easily rack up long winning streaks with their eyes closed without needing any attacking skills whatsoever. Keep in mind that many people simply use farming bots or buy gems to keep the resources for offence upgrades flowing and you could always boost your barracks to help get the resources for an upgrade sooner.

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Originally Posted by iBork

First off, whatever order you build a base, it takes the same amount of time. So this logic is false.

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Your logic is false as engineering is not about the order in which you build things. Why would a hardcore engineer with maxed offence suddenly drop defences as long as he is benefiting greatly from his engineered base? Maybe a portion of .5's plan on dropping defences eventually but even that would not justify their matchmaking advantage before those defences are built.

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Originally Posted by iBork

Second, low offense/high offense bases are not the reason people loose wars. It's always because they have low heroes, have maxed out their defense while having low level troops.

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Nobody is saying that engineering is always to blame when someone loses. Of course, higher-level heroes are better but that applies to everyone and has nothing to do with engineering.

All other things being equal, a clan with a defenseless TH11 rather than a maxed TH7 would have a major advantage in war as they would have 2 extra TH11 attacks that could very well decide the war. Heck, that defenceless TH11 could 3-star the top 2 bases of the opponent while everyone else dips down with their attacks. It would be a boring kind of war but one that would give the engineer's clan a huge advantage.

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Originally Posted by iBork

Thirdly, defenseless bases do nothing as far as war advantage. ZERO advantage. Do the math.

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You do the math ... 2 TH11 attacks with max offence vs 0 TH11 attacks due to sandbagging, who do you think would have a major advantage?

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Originally Posted by iBork

In short, your logic is illogical and is based on presumed facts that engineered bases are a problem that must be addressed.

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Engineered bases are a problem that must be addressed.

funny thing is this whole anti-engineer flame war reminds me of all the rusher vs maxer debates that raged on not that long ago. the loud majority on the forums were anti-rusher, saying it was stupid and what-not, and only a few took advantage of the benefits that intelligent rushing (or, dare i say it, engineering) could provide.

sure, the aim was different... rushing was mostly about getting to the higher end of gameplay without the delay of maxing, but the results are very similar when it comes to war - low war weight, lack of a strong defensive base, but select offensive power.

so it turns out that the much-ridiculed rushing tactic actually has some advantages... even if everyone hates those dirty rushers/engineers XD


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a point of terminology - going the x.5 path is not the same as building an engineered base. x.5 just means not building new defences (e.g. xbow, infernos, eagle) and focussing on offensive power for the sake of war matchmaking. anyone who's focussed on war will do this so they don't weigh their clan down... a lot of x.5s will drop the defences later once they have the offensive power (and skill) to take out an equivalent enemy base.
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At all, I see engineering as a positive thing. It´s advanced strategic gaming by players who completely focus on competitive wars. .5-Bases often bring disadvantages in farming and pushing, too. So, basically, these are specialtists on top of 1 aspect of the game. There are either players focussed on pushing or farming, building specialized bases, too.

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Originally Posted by N1NJ4smurf

funny thing is this whole anti-engineer flame war reminds me of all the rusher vs maxer debates that raged on not that long ago. the loud majority on the forums were anti-rusher, saying it was stupid and what-not, and only a few took advantage of the benefits that intelligent rushing (or, dare i say it, engineering) could provide.

sure, the aim was different... rushing was mostly about getting to the higher end of gameplay without the delay of maxing, but the results are very similar when it comes to war - low war weight, lack of a strong defensive base, but select offensive power.

so it turns out that the much-ridiculed rushing tactic actually has some advantages... even if everyone hates those dirty rushers/engineers XD


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a point of terminology - going the x.5 path is not the same as building an engineered base. x.5 just means not building new defences (e.g. xbow, infernos, eagle) and focussing on offensive power for the sake of war matchmaking. anyone who's focussed on war will do this so they don't weigh their clan down... a lot of x.5s will drop the defences later once they have the offensive power (and skill) to take out an equivalent enemy base.
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One of my arguments for rushing used to be "it helps you in war! You're matched with much weaker enemies when you rush" and turns out nobody believed me, until now. People used to think rushing made you a liability in wars, but its the opposite.

They will Not listen!! they dont care, because engineered are gemmers. and it's the benefit for SuperSell. who care about players???? but believe me SuperSell, i wont play this ♥♥♥♥ if you not fix it in October update. I'm done after 3 years

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

One of my arguments for rushing used to be "it helps you in war! You're matched with much weaker enemies when you rush" and turns out nobody believed me, until now. People used to think rushing made you a liability in wars, but its the opposite.

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Yeah my rushed mini is ranked as a th7 in war, and still makes a th8 have to dip to 3* it. In this picture it stood up to a th7 mass drags, a th8 mass drags, and then they had no more attacks left so a th10 had to take it out.
http://imgur.com/a/msJHk

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Originally Posted by SinOfDusk

One of my arguments for rushing used to be "it helps you in war! You're matched with much weaker enemies when you rush" and turns out nobody believed me, until now. People used to think rushing made you a liability in wars, but its the opposite.

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Smart rushing does give you an advantage in war, not regular rushing though, and i've seen absolutely zero smart rushers in game who arent forumers, most people don't even believe me when i tell them that rushing can actually be good.

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Originally Posted by TheJager

Smart rushing does give you an advantage in war, not regular rushing though, and i've seen absolutely zero smart rushers in game who arent forumers, most people don't even believe me when i tell them that rushing can actually be good.

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My mini was just plain rushed, not even smartly rushed to th7, then I recovered a bit. After this, I discovered the forums and smartly rushed my main. So I didn't see the advantage of rushing before the forums, but my mini looked closer to smartly rushed before I discovered the forums.

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Originally Posted by TheJager

Smart rushing does give you an advantage in war, not regular rushing though, and i've seen absolutely zero smart rushers in game who arent forumers, most people don't even believe me when i tell them that rushing can actually be good.

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a rusher by definition is deliberate and informed about their decisions.. the other is a premmie. again, terminology from the old debate; most ppl don't recognise the difference.

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Originally Posted by N1NJ4smurf

a rusher by definition is deliberate and informed about their decisions.. the other is a premmie. again, terminology from the old debate; most ppl don't recognise the difference.

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This is true. And the players who see one "engineered" base or lower level TH in war and say that they beat an engineered clan really have zero understanding of what a really well engineered clan is.

Just mach clan wars up by Town halls no experience points. That's would be the solution

our clan runs a pretty even mix of th levels from th 8-11 and we have been seeing an increase in these engineered bases....

our last 2 wars have been pretty interesting..... we lost 2 wars ago by 4, but we will win this one. I find it all depends on the skill of the attackers in these "engineered clans". we can easily crush a base that has th8-9 defences, but it hurts when it has th11 troops with max heroes and he's tucked in down in the 18-20 range.

it's frustrating, but we do our best.

OP is correct.

We recently barred all traditional villages from wars, only 0.5 bases allowed*. We faced a couple too many engineered/heavy 0.5 clans with massive advantages to continue in the old ways (and this is easier than telling our TH9 they needed legit heroes so they could three max enemy nines, got tired of TH10's having to drop on nines to finish them). We find people much more willing to just up their TH "early" and work on offense only, than sit out wars grinding hero levels at TH9.

Not that we haven't done it before (much longer has been done) but we are on a 14+ war win streak now (one or two of those were tied for stars, we still get a lot of even matchups)

*Max TH11 offenses exempted, we do have two full max bases at the top in basically every war, but nobody else is building eagles)

The game will NEVER be polarized into farm wars and engineered wars as long as competitive players in the CWL, TWC, and just your hardcore war player exist.

Farm wars, engineered wars, TWC. CWL, hardcore war clan, casual war clans, non-engineered clans bad war clans will all exist...

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Originally Posted by ExclusiveInvicta

The game will NEVER be polarized into farm wars and engineered wars as long as competitive players in the CWL, TWC, and just your hardcore war player exist.

Farm wars, engineered wars, TWC. CWL, hardcore war clan, casual war clans, non-engineered clans bad war clans will all exist...

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I agree it wont be a total engineered takeover but it doesnt have to be to ruin what fun maxers have left in war. Its definitely a downward spiral imo and these things tend to pick up speed with time. I have seen more than enough posts on forum saying i dont like engineering but i do it because i felt i had no choice.

I doubt many of these posts are actually unwinnable or even big advantage wars either. Usually engineered bases are not too great at attacking and stellar attackers will easily overcome an engineered clan.

I also rarely see pictures or tags posted for people to come assess the match...

I compare this to a player that cries a troop is OP... usually just turns out to be a big exaggeration or the player is a bad attacker with a bad base.

Clan wars with only fully maxed th11s will be even offence/defence like you want, so there's nothing stopping you from joining a clan like that and playing the way you think it was designed.

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Clan wars with only fully maxed th11s will be even offence/defence like you want, so there's nothing stopping you from joining a clan like that and playing the way you think it was designed.

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Nothing stopping you, but those timers sure do slow you down by 3 or so years.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCharlie

Nothing stopping you, but those timers sure do slow you down by 3 or so years.

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Yeah the lab and hero timers slow you down, ie. OFFENCE is slow, defence is easy by comparison. Thats why engineers spend a ton of gems maxing offence.

Funny this post comes up again now. It's clear that SC has nerfed the 0.5s, especially 8.5, IMO. My 8.5 mini was matched up with a few th8s in wars before the last major update. Since then, nadda. Every war it has matched vs. bases with xbows, and the vast majority have pitted it against th9s w/ all L9 walls and L3 xbows, etc. This base sits in the bottom half of the war map, and we run another 8.5 and 1-2 9.5s (inc. my main) depending on the war. The 9.5s (which both have 70k war weight, equiv to max th9s) usually get matched to another 9.5 or a 10 w/ 1 inferno. But the 8.5s never get matched with 8s anymore. Likewise, our th8s never get matched to th8.5s. It seems more balanced.

When we meet clans that do more extreme engineering, like bases with low th9 weight but max th10 offense, it invariably seems to be that the player's attacking abilities are really poor. They needed to rush their TH because they really can't handle harder bases than their mirror often. Now there have been a couple times we ran into truly defenseless bases at the bottom, and those guys were skilled and a real nuisance in war. Still seems to be extremely rare; perhaps only clans that do a lot more engineering than 0.5's get matched up with one another.

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Clan wars with only fully maxed th11s will be even offence/defence like you want, so there's nothing stopping you from joining a clan like that and playing the way you think it was designed.

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That's the beautiful irony - I was in a TH11 clan like that when I wrote this post and I'm still in that clan - when I war I have the luxury of enjoying that competitive adrenaline you get when you face a tough warbase. I just did not want to see that type of war die away for mixed lower townhall clans, whether they are "hardcore" or "casual" in war.

This thread is six months old, surprised to see it pop up every 3 months.

A lot has changed since I wrote this and I can see some efforts to reinvigorate the fun of competitive wars. Although it takes many rules and the use of the new Friendly Wars feature to avoid the risk of engineered clan war matches, the CWL made me smile because it set out standards for just the type of competitive wars I most admire.

And from what everyone is saying, there has been some adjustment to the clan war matching algorithm too, although I don't play in a clan with fully-engineered or .5 bases.

As I said before, I have no bone to pick with engineered or .5 bases, they are leveraging smart strategy. I just hope that SuperCell continues to work towards clan war matching that leads to competitive, well-rounded wars.

CWL has shown us how much fun that can be.

Cheers

Was always a nice thread, good to see it resurface. It is indeed rather comical to me, that many of the CWL and general popular YouTube war scenes fans also laugh in the face of the 'gowipe maxer noobs', failing to adjust to their superior strategy.

Just a casual flame-bait observation.

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Originally Posted by JoseJones

Yeah the lab and hero timers slow you down, ie. OFFENCE is slow, defence is easy by comparison. Thats why engineers spend a ton of gems maxing offence.

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A lot of the ones i see are obviously bots, with just drags maxed so they can faceroll th9s.

Im a maxer by nature bc im ocd as hell lol but now making a engineer acct just to experience it n c if my opinions bout r true (im thinking they.r but wanna verify) bc I c alot of, imo, silly comments that engineers n tinkering of war mm doesnt bring u easy wins. Unfortunately im only one in my clan who is willing to do this so I know I wont get full effect of engineer clans but im sure it will give me a inkling of idea to support my opinions.

glad the wars haven't devolved into either engineered or farm wars quite yet or maybe my clan is just lucky haha.

we do 40v40s and the majority are th9 weight or higher with a few th11 and some th10s. i would imagine that helps a lot in avoiding some of the engineers. maybe 1 or 2 defenseless accounts on the other side every other war but rarely are they anything that would affect the outcome of the war. that defenseless mid hero th10 isn't gonna dent our th11s or max 10s

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Originally Posted by AFrostyBlaze

glad the wars haven't devolved into either engineered or farm wars quite yet or maybe my clan is just lucky haha.

we do 40v40s and the majority are th9 weight or higher with a few th11 and some th10s. i would imagine that helps a lot in avoiding some of the engineers. maybe 1 or 2 defenseless accounts on the other side every other war but rarely are they anything that would affect the outcome of the war. that defenseless mid hero th10 isn't gonna dent our th11s or max 10s

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I think the latest tweak did impact engineering, which is a good thing. Will be many months before the waves settle (assuming no further MM changes) to see the mid-term effect. I think roster engineering is gaining traction now.

The op was right our clan is slowly converting to engineered one

Smart thread, SC need to read it.
I was wondering when the game will be again about skills and adrenaline instead of roster engineering. I don't like to play a battle that is already lost or won before it starts.

We hit a massively engineered clan the war we are in now.......the bottom 30 out of 40 are basically steamrolling our guys with TH10 maxed dragons and loons to our traditionally developed th8 and lower. There is no way to compete. The funny part is watching them attack our higher maps. The other clan have no skills outside of drop and pray but will likely end up winning due to the over powered nature of this extreme engineering.

It is not fun for our crew to watch a war go this way when we clearly have more skill. I really hope SC addresses this soon as we are seeing more clans like this. It takes the fun out of the game pure and simple or in our case is forcing several of us to develop second accounts in such a way we don't enjoy.

As someone who is against engineering but is running a clan that has 40% of war villages fully engineered, I must say the predictions in OP are true as of right now.

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Originally Posted by schmu3

Town Hall sniping was removed because that was not how the game was intended to be played. Pretty sure engineering bases to gain extreme advantages is the same thing. War was not intended to be this way.

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War was not intended to be what way? I know it's a game, but damn man. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I guess the US modded in the Revolutionary War since they didn't line up like the British did and used other tactics. People are winning by playing the game their way. People losing just can't handle losing. Get better, learn the technique, or don't war.

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Originally Posted by Rigzard

War was not intended to be what way? I know it's a game, but damn man. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I guess the US modded in the Revolutionary War since they didn't line up like the British did and used other tactics. People are winning by playing the game their way. People losing just can't handle losing. Get better, learn the technique, or don't war.

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People engineer to gain an advantage. The goal is to draw in a TH that is a level or two lower than your offensive level. It's to get easy or easier matchups vs your opponent. Is it illegal?? No. Is it wrong and a problem with the game? Absolutely. Engenieering, if done properly, can cause the enemy clan to have a very low chance of winning. Unless the non engineered clan has much more skill, they will most likely lose.

You shouldn't be rewarded in this game for NOT building things. It's a stupid mindset and it does cause frustration on both ends. The engineers are stuck with a base that they can't upgrade and their opponents get stuck in a matchup that is very unfair. You should have an advantage because you maxed out your defense and offense, not be at a disadvantage, because someone else didn't build anything and just leveled heroes and loons.

I was a .5 for a LONG time. I did it to help our clan have an advantage in war. I didn't like not being able to upgrade, worrying about war weight etc.. I should have just enjoyed and been rewarded for building my base up. SC needs to figure out how to reward those who build their bases properly, without hurting the people who just went to a new TH(true .5). The game will be more fair and much more fun for all when that happens. Yes, it's a blast when your engineered TH11 has to go against a TH9, but it's not a blast for that TH9 and it's not a victim-less crime.

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Originally Posted by Bluntdawg

our clan runs a pretty even mix of th levels from th 8-11 and we have been seeing an increase in these engineered bases....

our last 2 wars have been pretty interesting..... we lost 2 wars ago by 4, but we will win this one. I find it all depends on the skill of the attackers in these "engineered clans". we can easily crush a base that has th8-9 defences, but it hurts when it has th11 troops with max heroes and he's tucked in down in the 18-20 range.

it's frustrating, but we do our best.

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You shouldn't be matching up with engineers, get rid of your .5's and you will almost always match with other even clans. Cnap has posted extensively about his experience here, too. And that's been my clan's experience post-Oct patch too, now that we have dropped infernos on every 10 and xbows on almost every 9 we've now had 16 in a row vs almost exact mirrors. In fact, we've only had 2 of the 16 that looked bad on paper:

1. Exact th match from 1-15, but oppponents had significantly lower heroes
2. Our most recent war that just ended, we have 4 th10's and 6 th9's, opponents have 5 th10's, 2 th 9.5, 2 th9, and 1 th8. - they're in FWA though so didn't bother to attack, but they would have beaten us if they had.

Both of those wars were not unwinnable though. In #1, our opponents could have just been elite attackers who could get away with lower heroes, they had a 3 or 4 match winning streak and ours was 0. In #2, we had a 4 match winning streak and have won 13 of 14, opponents have public war log with tons of red in it including their last 2 or 3, which makes sense when you realize that they're a farming clan. And we could have "earned" the victory in #2 anyway, but we couldn't 2* some max th10's that we normally would have, or even 3*. A few of our th10's just had an off war, it happens.

All of our other recent wars have been tossups, or close enough to a tossup at least that the outcome was decided on skill rather than luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micker99

People engineer to gain an advantage. The goal is to draw in a TH that is a level or two lower than your offensive level. It's to get easy or easier matchups vs your opponent. Is it illegal?? No. Is it wrong and a problem with the game? Absolutely. Engenieering, if done properly, can cause the enemy clan to have a very low chance of winning. Unless the non engineered clan has much more skill, they will most likely lose.

You shouldn't be rewarded in this game for NOT building things. It's a stupid mindset and it does cause frustration on both ends. The engineers are stuck with a base that they can't upgrade and their opponents get stuck in a matchup that is very unfair. You should have an advantage because you maxed out your defense and offense, not be at a disadvantage, because someone else didn't build anything and just leveled heroes and loons.

I was a .5 for a LONG time. I did it to help our clan have an advantage in war. I didn't like not being able to upgrade, worrying about war weight etc.. I should have just enjoyed and been rewarded for building my base up. SC needs to figure out how to reward those who build their bases properly, without hurting the people who just went to a new TH(true .5). The game will be more fair and much more fun for all when that happens. Yes, it's a blast when your engineered TH11 has to go against a TH9, but it's not a blast for that TH9 and it's not a victim-less crime.

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I just don't agree with this statement. We are entitled to our opinions. I have a max th 11 in 2 weeks time and have recently started playing my 9 again, which is an 8.5. I will continue to do the 8.5 and might go all the way to 11 with it and not upgrade a single defense. I have that ability and "right" being it's my base. I guess it is what it is. I don't think SC should do anything, but here on the forums I will be a minority. I do believe the forum is a minority of the game as a whole though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rigzard

I just don't agree with this statement. We are entitled to our opinions. I have a max th 11 in 2 weeks time and have recently started playing my 9 again, which is an 8.5. I will continue to do the 8.5 and might go all the way to 11 with it and not upgrade a single defense. I have that ability and "right" being it's my base. I guess it is what it is. I don't think SC should do anything, but here on the forums I will be a minority. I do believe the forum is a minority of the game as a whole though.

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You have the ability and right to do as you please with your account, that's correct. However, when your right interferes with my right, which is to face opponents equal to me, it no longer becomes a right. You've taken away my rights to justify yours, forcing people to play and upgrade as you've chosen to do so in order to be competitive.

Why can't engineers face other engineers? Is that a problem? Why can't those that have maxed their bases face others that have?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micker99

People engineer to gain an advantage. The goal is to draw in a TH that is a level or two lower than your offensive level. It's to get easy or easier matchups vs your opponent. Is it illegal?? No. Is it wrong and a problem with the game? Absolutely. Engenieering, if done properly, can cause the enemy clan to have a very low chance of winning. Unless the non engineered clan has much more skill, they will most likely lose.

You shouldn't be rewarded in this game for NOT building things. It's a stupid mindset and it does cause frustration on both ends. The engineers are stuck with a base that they can't upgrade and their opponents get stuck in a matchup that is very unfair. You should have an advantage because you maxed out your defense and offense, not be at a disadvantage, because someone else didn't build anything and just leveled heroes and loons.

I was a .5 for a LONG time. I did it to help our clan have an advantage in war. I didn't like not being able to upgrade, worrying about war weight etc.. I should have just enjoyed and been rewarded for building my base up. SC needs to figure out how to reward those who build their bases properly, without hurting the people who just went to a new TH(true .5). The game will be more fair and much more fun for all when that happens. Yes, it's a blast when your engineered TH11 has to go against a TH9, but it's not a blast for that TH9 and it's not a victim-less crime.

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The true .5 who just went to a new th has 0 issues post-patch. I've moved 2 accounts up to th9 since the patch, and moved one up a month before the patch, and matchmaking for all 3 has proven to be extremely fair I think. All came from max or nearly max th8 war weight, all started upgrading point defenses and walls right away, and none of them have ever drawn a true war mirror that I knew I would be unable to 3*. They did start matching up against xbows right away, but a 59k weight base with 2 lvl 2 xbows and purple walls is not difficult to 3* for a competent th9 with sf and camps upgraded and a lvl 5 queen. The issue with .5's is those who max out valks, hogs, golems, loons, dragons, hounds, witches, spells and have 25/25 heroes but with no defenses upgraded at all and have 55k weight. Previously, that base would mirror a max th8 or brand new th9, now that base will match an opponent with 20/20 heroes and 68k weight. Seems more fair to me now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

You have the ability and right to do as you please with your account, that's correct. However, when your right interferes with my right, which is to face opponents equal to me, it no longer becomes a right. You've taken away my rights to justify yours, forcing people to play and upgrade as you've chosen to do so in order to be competitive.

Why can't engineers face other engineers? Is that a problem? Why can't those that have maxed their bases face others that have?

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Exactly. Read my earlier post, my clan has now had 16 "fair" wars in a row, just by warring with no attempt to manipulate the mm at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rigzard

I just don't agree with this statement. We are entitled to our opinions. I have a max th 11 in 2 weeks time and have recently started playing my 9 again, which is an 8.5. I will continue to do the 8.5 and might go all the way to 11 with it and not upgrade a single defense. I have that ability and "right" being it's my base. I guess it is what it is. I don't think SC should do anything, but here on the forums I will be a minority. I do believe the forum is a minority of the game as a whole though.

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I disagree with your last statement.
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Does the forum represent the community?
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-the-Community

Why can't clan war come with an added option to exclude certain town hall levels? Wouldn't that solve a lot of the unfair matchmaking issues? Here's how it works:

If a clan does not have any TH11s in their lineup they may choose (NO TH11s) as an option before starting search.
If a clan only has TH9s and lower then they should have the option to exclude TH11s and TH10s.