Engineered clans case study

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

Does everyone know that "engineered" bases have been around since the beginning of clan wars? Why is it now a big fuss?

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I think it's the extremity of the current situation. I am not against prioritizing certain upgrades and strategizing in general for clan wars. I just feel like this situation is too extreme and should be toned down.

Here was my clan's engineered matchup a few weeks ago, which I had documented at the time, but don't have screens of (sorry):

My clan:
4 TH9s (all under 2 months; no xbows; one brand new)
7 TH8s (5 maxed defenses, 2 brand new)
6 TH7s
3 TH6s

Enemy clan:
1. TH9 - This is one of the only non-engineered bases; all normal splash damage building levels.
2. TH9 - a newer TH9, also non-engineered.
3. TH10 - 15/14 heroes; all level 11 arch towers and cannons, 1 level 2 mortar, 1 level 4 wiz towers, all level 6 air
4. TH10 - 15/15 heroes; 2 level 13 arch towers, 5 level 12 arch towers, 1 level 12 cannon, the rest level 11; all level 6 air; NO mortars or wiz towers
5. TH10 - same as 4
6. TH9 - TH8 max level defenses except low level splash and walls
7-14 all TH9 with varying defenses, but high arch and air defense (all 4 air defenses)
15. TH10 with max TH7 defenses. 10/8 heroes; level 6 castle.
16. TH8 with max defenses except splash, and mostly level 1 walls.
17-18. Fairly normal TH7s
19. Fairly normal TH6
20. Single level 1 cannon TH9

The troop levels on the enemy clan were all maxed, or close to, for their TH levels (mostly 9 and 10). They also had the additional camp space, extra clan castle levels, and varying hero levels.

They got perfect 60/60 on us (eventually...they were not good attackers and with their troops and camp space should have 3-starred all much easier). We got 56/60. We made some mistakes on the TH10s, and we learned from them. But we didn't have the extra attacks to make up for it because our TH7s and under were useless--their troops were weak (on par for their level; I am saying weak to attack any available bases), plus newer players.

Again, I really want to stress that I understand the matchmaking post bluedream quoted. I also understand all matches are not fair, nor should they be, and finally, yes, I understand this is a strategy game! Yes, their strategy is smart and effective!

But should the game be quite this way? Obviously we have differing opinions. I feel like the game would be better without this strategy having quite the effect it does. We could do nothing to defend against them. Others don't feel that way, and that is fine. But I think the point of posting about it here is to bring it to the attention of Supercell, more so than unjustified whining. At least for me. :unsure:

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Originally Posted by bluedreams1982

Oh sheesh. I've stated many points, they get ignored because they don't fit your narrative and run counter to your complaints

NioTheDreamer posted a good breakdown on matchmaking in another thread, copied below. While it would be so much fun to watch you grasp at straws to justify your position, this back and forth seems pretty pointless at this point. Y'all are just going to keep screaming foul, no matter what. How about instead of complaining, y'all spend your time fixing your clans, practicing your attacks, and develop strategies to combat these types of bases. After all, this is a STRATEGY GAME. Enjoy it, combat it, because it can be done.

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Most of what is written in the post you shared is known and obvious. And most of it strengthens what I said in my post.

Clans are matched as a whole? obviously. I didn't complain about the poor th7 opposite a defenseless account. I looked at the whole matchup and saw it as unfair. You're trying to say that the advantage is less than perceived? Possibly. But still significant enough. If the defense weighs 12k and offense is weighed significantly lower than defense - you're telling me that the defenseless th10 account will be matched with a th9? I disagree.
Interesting to hear if anyone has started a war with 10 defenseless th10 accounts. My guess is they would be matched with a clan of th6s tops.

Does supercell factor in town hall lvl? Haven't heard that before. But with the war having 4 th11s and 4 th10s vs 3 th10s (plus more th9s) - doesn't seem to be much of a factor.

Is having 1 defenseless account among a clan of high lvls not much of an advantage? of course. No one thinks that a th4 defenseless in a clan of th9s gives an advantage. But that's not the point. With multiple defenseless accounts that have offense that can 3 star the top 5 - defenseless accounts give a HUGE advantage.

Looking at any war screenshots or stats posted on the forum it's pretty hard to claim they are pulling someone as high as they can 3 star. In the example I posted here you would expect our clan to have a significant advantage in the top 10 if that were the case. The opposite was true. They had around 50k higher war weight and stronger or equal offense throughout the top 10.

On the subject of posting screenshots you complained about earlier - to do so I would have to take more than 120 screenshots.
each base and each profile. Forgive me for not doing that. Feel free to hop over if you honestly think I am reading the war map wrong.

Reiterating my call for more info from above.
Has anyone ever tried starting a clan war with 10 high lvl defenseless accounts? What were you matched with?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaclynt

I think it's the extremity of the current situation. I am not against prioritizing certain upgrades and strategizing in general for clan wars. I just feel like this situation is too extreme and should be toned down.

Here was my clan's engineered matchup a few weeks ago, which I had documented at the time, but don't have screens of (sorry):

My clan:
4 TH9s (all under 2 months; no xbows; one brand new)
7 TH8s (5 maxed defenses, 2 brand new)
6 TH7s
3 TH6s

Enemy clan:
1. TH9 - This is one of the only non-engineered bases; all normal splash damage building levels.
2. TH9 - a newer TH9, also non-engineered.
3. TH10 - 15/14 heroes; all level 11 arch towers and cannons, 1 level 2 mortar, 1 level 4 wiz towers, all level 6 air
4. TH10 - 15/15 heroes; 2 level 13 arch towers, 5 level 12 arch towers, 1 level 12 cannon, the rest level 11; all level 6 air; NO mortars or wiz towers
5. TH10 - same as 4
6. TH9 - TH8 max level defenses except low level splash and walls
7-14 all TH9 with varying defenses, but high arch and air defense (all 4 air defenses)
15. TH10 with max TH7 defenses. 10/8 heroes; level 6 castle.
16. TH8 with max defenses except splash, and mostly level 1 walls.
17-18. Fairly normal TH7s
19. Fairly normal TH6
20. Single level 1 cannon TH9

The troop levels on the enemy clan were all maxed, or close to, for their TH levels (mostly 9 and 10). They also had the additional camp space, extra clan castle levels, and varying hero levels.

They got perfect 60/60 on us (eventually...they were not good attackers and with their troops and camp space should have 3-starred all much easier). We got 56/60. We made some mistakes on the TH10s, and we learned from them. But we didn't have the extra attacks to make up for it because our TH7s and under were useless--their troops were weak (on par for their level; I am saying weak to attack any available bases), plus newer players.

Again, I really want to stress that I understand the matchmaking post bluedream quoted. I also understand all matches are not fair, nor should they be, and finally, yes, I understand this is a strategy game! Yes, their strategy is smart and effective!

But should the game be quite this way? Obviously we have differing opinions. I feel like the game would be better without this strategy having quite the effect it does. We could do nothing to defend against them. Others don't feel that way, and that is fine. But I think the point of posting about it here is to bring it to the attention of Supercell, more so than unjustified whining. At least for me. :unsure:

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so you have 6 th9s without xbows and you complain the other clan engineered?

your clan is engineered (though on a smaller scale) as are they.

engineered clans go against other engineered clans more than you think.

dont want to face engineers? run only max townhall levels (or near max)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orangemojo

so you have 6 th9s without xbows and you complain the other clan engineered?

your clan is engineered (though on a smaller scale) as are they.

engineered clans go against other engineered clans more than you think.

dont want to face engineers? run only max townhall levels (or near max)

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No. 4 TH9s, and they are new. One of them was his first war as a 9, all he had done was spell factory.

Also, please re-read first sentence:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaclynt

I think it's the extremity of the current situation. I am not against prioritizing certain upgrades and strategizing in general for clan wars. I just feel like this situation is too extreme and should be toned down.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaclynt

No. 4 TH9s, and they are new. One of them was his first war as a 9, all he had done was spell factory.

Also, please re-read first sentence:

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ok... you have 4 th9s but they all dont have xbows. that and your mixed clan setup (th9 to 6 is not good setup) is begging to be wrekced by engineers

you want to avoid engineered bases? drop those th6 and run th9 to 7. building xbows will also help as you will no longer face those "cowardly" and bully engineers, but instead will face bully max th9s! how fun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaclynt

I think it's the extremity of the current situation. I am not against prioritizing certain upgrades and strategizing in general for clan wars. I just feel like this situation is too extreme and should be toned down.

Here was my clan's engineered matchup a few weeks ago, which I had documented at the time, but don't have screens of (sorry):

My clan:
4 TH9s (all under 2 months; no xbows; one brand new)
7 TH8s (5 maxed defenses, 2 brand new)
6 TH7s
3 TH6s

Enemy clan:
1. TH9 - This is one of the only non-engineered bases; all normal splash damage building levels.
2. TH9 - a newer TH9, also non-engineered.
3. TH10 - 15/14 heroes; all level 11 arch towers and cannons, 1 level 2 mortar, 1 level 4 wiz towers, all level 6 air
4. TH10 - 15/15 heroes; 2 level 13 arch towers, 5 level 12 arch towers, 1 level 12 cannon, the rest level 11; all level 6 air; NO mortars or wiz towers
5. TH10 - same as 4
6. TH9 - TH8 max level defenses except low level splash and walls
7-14 all TH9 with varying defenses, but high arch and air defense (all 4 air defenses)
15. TH10 with max TH7 defenses. 10/8 heroes; level 6 castle.
16. TH8 with max defenses except splash, and mostly level 1 walls.
17-18. Fairly normal TH7s
19. Fairly normal TH6
20. Single level 1 cannon TH9

The troop levels on the enemy clan were all maxed, or close to, for their TH levels (mostly 9 and 10). They also had the additional camp space, extra clan castle levels, and varying hero levels.

They got perfect 60/60 on us (eventually...they were not good attackers and with their troops and camp space should have 3-starred all much easier). We got 56/60. We made some mistakes on the TH10s, and we learned from them. But we didn't have the extra attacks to make up for it because our TH7s and under were useless--their troops were weak (on par for their level; I am saying weak to attack any available bases), plus newer players.

Again, I really want to stress that I understand the matchmaking post bluedream quoted. I also understand all matches are not fair, nor should they be, and finally, yes, I understand this is a strategy game! Yes, their strategy is smart and effective!

But should the game be quite this way? Obviously we have differing opinions. I feel like the game would be better without this strategy having quite the effect it does. We could do nothing to defend against them. Others don't feel that way, and that is fine. But I think the point of posting about it here is to bring it to the attention of Supercell, more so than unjustified whining. At least for me. :unsure:

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I see what you have read and understand what you are saying. I do see things differently. I see the other clan can and did easily get 60 stars vs you. As you said mistakes were made but it would appear that if those mistakes were not make you too could of gotten 60* so it would of been a draw. The fact that both sides could max stars vs each other tells me that it was indeed a fair matchup. The fact that one side could do it easier than the other shows an advantage yes. However since both sides could max stars I don't see it as an unfair advantage or an exploit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlmogTheGreat

Most of what is written in the post you shared is known and obvious. And most of it strengthens what I said in my post.

Clans are matched as a whole? obviously. I didn't complain about the poor th7 opposite a defenseless account. I looked at the whole matchup and saw it as unfair. You're trying to say that the advantage is less than perceived? Possibly. But still significant enough. If the defense weighs 12k and offense is weighed significantly lower than defense - you're telling me that the defenseless th10 account will be matched with a th9? I disagree.
Interesting to hear if anyone has started a war with 10 defenseless th10 accounts. My guess is they would be matched with a clan of th6s tops.

Does supercell factor in town hall lvl? Haven't heard that before. But with the war having 4 th11s and 4 th10s vs 3 th10s (plus more th9s) - doesn't seem to be much of a factor.

Is having 1 defenseless account among a clan of high lvls not much of an advantage? of course. No one thinks that a th4 defenseless in a clan of th9s gives an advantage. But that's not the point. With multiple defenseless accounts that have offense that can 3 star the top 5 - defenseless accounts give a HUGE advantage.

Looking at any war screenshots or stats posted on the forum it's pretty hard to claim they are pulling someone as high as they can 3 star. In the example I posted here you would expect our clan to have a significant advantage in the top 10 if that were the case. The opposite was true. They had around 50k higher war weight and stronger or equal offense throughout the top 10.

On the subject of posting screenshots you complained about earlier - to do so I would have to take more than 120 screenshots.
each base and each profile. Forgive me for not doing that. Feel free to hop over if you honestly think I am reading the war map wrong.

Reiterating my call for more info from above.
Has anyone ever tried starting a clan war with 10 high lvl defenseless accounts? What were you matched with?

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You do understand those weights you are using as examples represent only defense, not overall weight of the base, right?

And yes, per the last matchmaking update, supercell assigns weight to TH, as a level. The fact that you aren't aware of this further illustrates my point that most of you aren't fully aware of all the info out there on matchmaking, nor the history of changes to it.

Also, you're correct that TH weights don't seem to have much effect. Again, this "unfair matchup" is likely due to the fact that SUPERCELL FAVORS A DISADVANTAGE ON ONE SIDE, IN ORDER TO DECREASE MATCHUP SEARCH TIMES. So stop grasping at straws. Mismatches happen. Basically, I really don't care if you feel the matchup is unfair. Matchmaking is better than it ever has been, and despite what y'all think, there isn't a loophole, and there isn't a fix to your problem that will be solved with changes to matchmaking, without reverting to problems already fixed by supercell. This is part of the experince that a strategy game with this much depth provides. You don't want to play all the angles, don't complain. It's your own fault.

Just because you don't argue every point I'm addressing, doesn't mean Anti-engineers are not using them elsewhere. It's not all about you and your matchup, as much as you would like. Some people are using the "a th7 is mirrored with a defenseless TH10, this isn't fun" complaint.

It's pretty ironic you're calling for more info, yet won't supply info to back up your claim, providing nothing more than "Trust me, bro".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaclynt

No. 4 TH9s, and they are new. One of them was his first war as a 9, all he had done was spell factory.

Also, please re-read first sentence:

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So, you are going to war, with that many brand new TH9s as your top players, and you expect to win? Hmmm...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orangemojo

ok... you have 4 th9s but they all dont have xbows. that and your mixed clan setup (th9 to 6 is not good setup) is begging to be wrekced by engineers

you want to avoid engineered bases? drop those th6 and run th9 to 7. building xbows will also help as you will no longer face those "cowardly" and bully engineers, but instead will face bully max th9s! how fun

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You're really missing my point entirely... Mixed clans just deserve what they get? I thought you guys didn't expect everyone to play the same way? Our newer players learn from the top; it's a fun warring environment for us, even when we faced the engineering clan.

This is just not a black and white, all or nothing issue. Again, all I think is that the effectiveness of extreme engineered bases should be toned down for better balance in the game. Not eliminated; not restricting people to all build bases the same way. Just tone down the extremity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

I see what you have read and understand what you are saying. I do see things differently. I see the other clan can and did easily get 60 stars vs you. As you said mistakes were made but it would appear that if those mistakes were not make you too could of gotten 60* so it would of been a draw. The fact that both sides could max stars vs each other tells me that it was indeed a fair matchup. The fact that one side could do it easier than the other shows an advantage yes. However since both sides could max stars I don't see it as an unfair advantage or an exploit.

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Thanks for actually reading my post and responding respectfully. Much appreciated.

Yes, our 56/60 surprised me. We went into the war feeling very hopeless and defeated. Maybe we will get perfect next time and draw. Maybe that means it is fair? I don't know if being able to tie them defines it as fair or not, honestly. Barring disconnects and weird technical issues on their end, we couldn't win.

Again, so bluedream and orange don't jump down my throat again: not saying matchups should be equal on all accounts, nor that we should win them all---but it would be nice to go into war knowing there's at least a chance. Looking at this clan's war log shows a high intimidation factor in all their wins. Many opponents not bothering to attack at all. Obviously, that's their choice and they could have tried. But, what it tells me is that it is a less than desirable and un-fun environment to be placed in for most of us, and therefore I feel not unwarranted for Supercell to take into consideration.

Anyway, probably said all I can. Again, thanks for the kind response MrJackrabbit.