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my problem with those bases are whenever i face them we end up draw infact the other day we faced such clan and they break our 20 win streak and not cause we lose but cause both clans end up with 100% destruction. i hate it... so much hard work go to the wind cause those guys..
i the I it's the modders who are complaining the most about this since they now have to fight FairPlay style and they don't know how to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by xclusiv
Anyone me can generate a 2nd account on a different device. This has been done forever. Just learn to play with it and set up your defense better. Too many players take the easy way out and model there defense after top players. Lol...what a mistake. Generate your own unique defense intelligently and the attacker won't know how to raid you.
Without creating a second (or third, or whatever +1) account, some players are already past the point of being able to properly take advantage of the flaws in the matchmaking system. Making another account isnt something that should be required to enjoy the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooly
Some want to play their way. Be it maxing, rushing, casual play... whatever your style may be. Remember, diversity is a good thing. Some just dont want to.
I understand that wars arent for everyone, but why should those that cant, or choose not to make an engineered base be forced into that style of play? You could say that by not doing anything about the exploitation of the matchmaking system, all other methods of play will essentially be removed. Diversity is good, but in the long run this will become the only way to play... the same way TH on the outside did. It is not good for the game as a whole and some solution really needs to be found. I personally cannot think of one where at least 1 segment of the player base wouldnt be upset or hurt by the changes... maybe there is a solution out there that makes everyone happier, maybe not... time will tell.
My belief is that TH should carry a set weight, then offense/defense measured so overall strength can be properly defined within the game and allow matches of clans to be as close to balanced as possible. Yes this will hurt players that rush, and yes this will hurt players that have made engineered bases, but to me, it seems the most fair way to get balanced war matchups... which is really what the uproar is about to begin with.
Since bunnies are gone... What can we blame for losing next?
I love facing engineered bases... easy 3 stars for our team. If one of your lowers cant 3 a base with no walls and a cannon.. your clan should look into calling it quits in regards to wars.
Here is what they will whine about next:
"Please Supercell, NERF spying. The other clan sent a spy and thats the reason we lost. Spying is cheating"
"no difference between modding and spying, both are dirty and have no differences"
If your "TH8's and 7's" got matched up with maxed TH11's that's on supercell no matter what the other players had in their line up.Quote:
Originally Posted by THELUCKKING
This... Sitting in the middle of a bunch of TH 7's and 8's in our enemy's line up ☺️
Attachment 173299
[QUOTE=leluuu;7357822]This... Sitting in the middle of a bunch of TH 7's and 8's in our enemy's line up ☺️
QUOTE]
since this base has a level 10 warden should automatically get a minimum weight of th10 plus warden, king, Queen and troops weights, so will end up with a weight of mid level th10 if key offensive get the weighting they should. Would still allow some flexibility without allowing for matchups of this sort to occur.
edit: min th 10 weight in this example same as max th9 weight.
We are warring 20, he is below the last TH 8 and above 2 TH 7's. Not worried but, it is a prime example.
[QUOTE=Vikingchief;7357848]This is essentially the problemQuote:
Originally Posted by leluuu
These engineered bases get a double advantage in that they engineer extra attacks towards the top of the matchup (this is clever and good strategy) but the emphasis on defences in the matchmaking algorithm means that they generally match with clans that are overall weaker than them
A simple adjustment to reduce or eliminate the weaker opponent part and still leave the other benefit intact would be an equitable trade that most level-headed engineers would accept
Increasing offence weight or having a baseline TH level weight are 2 proposals that could potentially balance this out because as it currently stands, defenceless and heavy engineered clans enjoy a huge advantage with the current matching algorithm
[QUOTE=ratpack2000;7357897]just increasing offence weight wont have enough effect, you also have to give a minimum weight to key upgrades, if this is done it will still allow a minor advantage to dedicated engineers but prevent mismatches that ruin the fun of wars. You cant weigh th level as its unfair to noob rushers and we need these people to stay, play and contribute to game income. Weighing offence and defence 50/50 and giving a minimum weight to the big impact offence upgrades will result in a relatively fair matchup while still allowing diversity and strategic upgrading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
this idea is unfair to defencless bases but sc can compensate them with gems so they can gem defences to the minimum level.
My assumption of these people crying about engineered bases are probably in a bad terrible attacking clan. Either get good, have your teammates get good also, and build better bases or find another clan that can cover these engineered bases.
An enemy clan having engineered base(s) doesn't guarantee a 3 star. They also have to attack correctly. BUT if the bases (complainers about engineered bases and/or clanmates) these engineered clans are attacking are regurgitated internet bases, I don't see how your opposing enemies will fail.
[QUOTE=ratpack2000;7357897]As an 'engineer' I will accept anything SC want to give us. Including the current weighting. It is currently within the bounds of the game and is thus open for all to compete in a similar fashion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
If SC decide to change it then I will evolve and re-engineer villages to maximise my advantage and fun. Others will run back here to the forums and continue to whinge and whine. Why? Because they fail to prepare and adjust and will always ultimately lose.
Agreed. Also, if you lose, either learn from the loss or get over it.
This thread got merged so I'll remove my comment as it's out of context now
This again seriously .....
[QUOTE=Wooly;7357956]That wasnt my quote, i am 100% against weighing th level, weighing offence properly is the only fair solution here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratpack2000
edit, i meant to quote wooly, not sure what happened.
The engineers think it's fair. Actual objective fairness be damned, if the system can be exploited then it's good. Which is why the pro-fair-wars team is pushing for an improvement in the matchmaking while pro-engineers are pushing the status quo.Quote:
Originally Posted by THELUCKKING
Dude. You must really like staring at your war log.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theocules
[QUOTE=Vikingchief;7357929]There's still plenty of fun in wars from where I'm standing. If you're not finding it fun then adapt or adjust accordingly or not. The choice is yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratpack2000
Please stop trying to spoil my game just because it doesn't fit with your rigid playing style.
I would like to visit these clans that are complaining about engineered bases. I will be willing to bet my money that the main reason the complainers are losing is because of attack strategy and base design.
i am in favour of engineering, i think its important to limit it so it doesnt ruin the fun of the game. The majority will not adjust to it and will whine louder till something happens, would rather that someone is rational and fair than some overeaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooly
[QUOTE=Wooly;7357956]Im a fairly decent farmer and have done the engineering thing. It got boring very fastQuote:
Originally Posted by ratpack2000
Not maintaining the base, contrary to popular opinion, thats actually pretty easy if you know how to barch and can play long sessions
However, war was unchallenging so I quit
Call me a whiner if you wish but looking at the game from the overall rather than my myopic view of how I am playing, I recognise that it is becoming / will become a problem as more and more people do it.
Much like all the other 'clever' strategies that Supercell nerfed into insignificance without warning (zapping DE anyone?)
The point is that SC have intimated that they dont like hyper-optimized bases and they have done the carrot method. From history, the next move will be the stick
And as I said before, the work people do to get the extra attacks up top should be rewarded however the side-effect of facing weaker clans, gives the current application a bit too much of an advantage
The engineers in this thread have been incredibly toxic, using very caustic language and ad-hominem attacks in lieu of a coherent argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataman
Ultimately the pro-fair-play people want a fair match up and down the clan. The engineers build bases to subvert the fair matchup, which is currently acceptable because the matchmaking algorithm itself needs an overhaul. Both sides are talking past each other at this stage.
Again, Im not speaking for me. My clan wins some, we lose some. I always have funQuote:
Originally Posted by Wooly
Its about all the other players who arent me, particularly the ones that will quit specifically because they cant compete in wars. Theres enough terrible clans out there who would struggle to win an even match let alone one where they face an engineered clan they would not have ordinarily met, but can now be matched with because of the defensive sandbagging
I re-iterate, this isnt about me, I like part of the strategy (getting extra high attacks) even though I dont use it myself. Its about the matching weaker clans part
lol we not the ones screaming cheat or exploit, we dont claim the other side are dirty manipulators. we not the ones associating the other side with bots, their is toxicity here but you need to check you own nose first, its not clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traokoth
Remove the second quote from your reply with quote posts, or it attributes the quote to the wrong person, seams to be a bug in the code for some posters at the moment, that wasnt my quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratpack2000
Again with the "fair" and "unfair" rubbish. What's unfair as it stands? Seriously!? The engineer strategy is open to everyone who can be bothered. Nothing is currently "unfair". Learn how to adapt... I bet your TH still outside your walls isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Traokoth
You are intentionally misinterpreting the other view point. Engineers are saying the practice is fair game because the system allows it. Fair-play people are saying that the system is broken and needs to be improved. Those aren't mutually exclusive ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooly
No. I'm saying that you seem to think that "fairness" stems from maximising your village. I'm saying that fairness stems from utilising all the tools in the box to maximise the enjoyment I get from the game without breaking any rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traokoth
It isn't broken. People are just refusing to adapt to different styles of play.
I'm going to summarize some of the things I've been called by anti-engineers in the last few days for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Traokoth
1) Coward
2) Cheater
3) Modder
4) Not well endowed so I'm making up for it by engineering (I put it the nice way but you catch the drift)
5) Exploiter
6) My work has been discredited by people implying I must bot to get where I am
There's more I just can't repeat some of them even in a nice way and I'm losing track of how horrible of a person I am for not playing your way
Not only that but people are advocating that the thing I have worked for be ripped away from me and the attitude from them is "So what?" All the while expecting me to sympathize with their cries?...
Funny how the anti-engineers never complain about trouncing all over my lawn in multiplayer and yet never giving me a shield.
Maybe for game balance we'll only let you drop 10% of your troops against me in multiplayer then?
Who came up with the term "engineered" for these bases. What do you "engineer"? I am an engineer by trade and this offends me greatly. I almost cannot bring my self to getting another beer.
And why do these bases ♥♥♥♥ people off so much? Also why do I laugh so much at these threads?
Someone get back to me on that!!!
I have heard both sides here. Both sides make a good point, but I have to agree with the engineers for one big factor that never seems to be brought up. Engineers are taking a risk. I'm a maxxer becuase I raid 95% of the time. If I engineered my base how am I supposed to keep all the loot I'm making in war? That's the risk engineers are willing to take in order to have the advantage in war and I think it's a fair tradeoff. Sure, they are winning a bunch of wars and getting that war loot but their bases are very vulnerable to gold farmers and will most likely lose that loot as quick as they got. Vice versa, maxxes might get ♥♥♥♥ty match ups but their loot is going to be well protected. That's how I see it at least
If you have everyone in your clan build no more than 2X mortars and that is the ONLY engineering you do, then by the time you guys get to near max TH9 you will be winning almost all your wars.
That is the power of strategically upgrading your bases. I use the plural intentionally since engineering is all about shaving off a little weight on each base without compromising its effectiveness so that CUMULATIVE clan weight is notably lower.
People need to look at war weight and ask the question is this worth it for my goal?
Maxing everything is worth it if your goal is to be as strong as possible in order to defend in regular matching since there you are matched by town hall. In war its by weight and something like mortars is extremely high weight but 2 of them maxed and strategically placed in a good base layout will serve their function which is stopping massed tier one troops.
Another good trick is to use mixed walls. You don't need every tile maxed, some are for funneling enemy troops to where you want them.
It's funny. To me it's more like most engineers are using pure common sense. HOWEVER, the anti-engineering too are using common sense, albeit one that was introduced by SC with their policies and behavior over the past years.
And that is legit, as long as SC is quick to acknowledge the deviation from their norm (engineering) and quick to penalize/shot them down. which didn't happen. it's like some normal siblings who has ♥♥♥♥♥♥ed parents, who are also greedy.
So guess who's to blame...
Wait Wait Wait Wait Wait.
Aren't maxers engineers too? They engineer their base to be better in multiplayer, and pretty good in war? And those strategic rushers must be engineers too since they are upgrading their base SMARTLY.
/sarcasm
Seriously tho, low defense, high offense is a legit strategy. Maxers take advantage of the multiplayer system. Minimax/Defenseless bases take advantage of the war system. Not building certain defenses is not against the TOS, it's perfectly fine. The opportunity to make your base or a second account's base like this is available to everyone, so stop complaining because others used better strategy than you. COC is a STRATEGY game people!
It's like calling ambushing in real life wars cheating and not a legitimate strategy. Only heads on war people! Show them how proud you are to die for your country by not ambushing the enemy!Quote:
Originally Posted by NotTheRealPaul
You need to add rapist to this list. One of the old threads were VikingChief and Doran were duking it outQuote:
Originally Posted by Theocules
How is ambushing cheating? It's not against the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by xclusiv
And in war I would ambush the enemy. Less casualties for me. Facing them head on would result in a lot of my men dying. Being proud of dying for your country is one thing, but throwing your life away because you wanted to face them head on instead of using smart tactics is stupid.
There was a time in history when armies would face off against each other in an open field neatly packed together in a line and open fire on each other.
Those pesky native Americans were cheaters though, they wouldn't play by the rules and hid in the trees executing guerrilla attacks on the easily spotted invaders wearing bright red. This allowed these natives to win in combat against the better armed invaders, literally they took knives to a gun fight and won.
Apparently this doesn't apply to the logic of some people here don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by NotTheRealPaul
Tell that to supercell. All these problems are only snowballing because their lack of firm stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by NotTheRealPaul
I think they made their stance pretty clear. They gave defense more weight and matchmaking now considers defense MORE. Seems like they don't mind the extra strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by omeskeren
thats what I'm getting at. Fight a losing war or try to make it into a winning war. Apparently that's not strategy and called weakness, cheats, etc here.Quote:
Originally Posted by DisconnectedFromServer
actually they took knives into biological warfare and lost big time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DisconnectedFromServer
Those pesky red coats and their diseases wiped out like 95%.
On another note. Isn't there bigger fish to fry in this game.
Watching the burner accounts just roll through the clan my th11 clan is fighting. It's like pathetic at this point am I right?
Like you couldn't have done better than this with a billion dollar game. I think they can afford to expand their team of 4 programmers to solve the issue, just saying.
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by logos
10 This's
lol logos, good show was wondering if someone would mention that.Quote:
Originally Posted by logos
Although I would disagree the European invaders actually "won" in every sense of the word. They pretty much lost most of the skirmishes when forces were equal.
The disease that decimated Native Americans was introduced long before the main colonization forces arrived via explorers. Europeans at the time didn't bath, the comparitively clean natives who did bath simply didn't have a immune system developed to withstand the filthy invaders and the disease they brought. When the colonizing forces arrived they found cleared land perfect for farming (native villages wiped out by disease) and they actually thought it was gods doing.
agreed, the war on actual cheating is not yet won and requires supercells' full attention.
NERF THE WORLD!!! Problem solved! Hamster Balls for EVERY Man, Woman, and Hamster!!! Save us from ourselves, Supercell!!!
And the history lesson begins
lol so trueQuote:
Originally Posted by xclusiv
Engineering bases are an abomination SC must eradicate ��( fourum blocks emoji with one hand raised ). There is only one true race here and thats the we maxxed out our defense race, oops a mean base. One true base will stand tall above those engineering scums.
What's the big deal with engineered clans? If you joined a decent war clan with mostly maxed out TH9-TH11 bases, you shouldn't come across these engineered clans at all. Am I missing something?
I have done the 'max at every level' for a couple accounts.. and after learning more about the game - realized it was stupid to do that... for me... -Quote:
Originally Posted by nstar612
I run a clan with 30 engineered accounts - and 20 normal - low level - accounts thrown into the bottom. our top bases -- never - fail to get 3 stars higher than their mirror anymore... so in effect - all our wars - are always perfect. at WORST we will get a perfect vs perfect tie against another enemy- if they also engineer their clan.
We see other engineered clans more often than we see normal clans. Our enemy clan leaders seem to control 20 to 40 of the 50 accounts - every war - luckyf or us, their engineering skills are not as good as ours... so we still win often... but once in a while -- they can tie us.
Also - sometimes - we get 'normal ' clans... a clan with nothing but normal th8 players from top to midddle... vs a bunch of our th10 hybrids that can easily stomp them... and they cant do much in return... When faced with a match like that -- it is almost mis matched in our favor - the enemy almost has no chance at all to even tie us... so its a pretty much guaranteed loss for that enemy clan -- which makes players like them HATE engineered accounts... cause they dont have enough of them to win.
Any- and every- clan will face a clan with engineered accounts...
look at level 11 impregnability- they have a handful of MAX -super epic strong players who did the 'max at every level' kind of thing... -- then they have some defenseless - minimax- various hybrids - and 20 or 30 th3 accounts that the leaders throw in there to get 50x50 wars...
Many players engineer one account...
Some clan leaders engineer 20 to 40 (i have met 3 clans in the last 6 wars that have had one leader control more than 30 accounts)
Some clan leaders simply insure that they have enough low weights on bottom -- to HIDE a few extra powerful players on top...
EVERY clan does something to win; -- by recruiting players who CAN win... by mixing and matching accounts that can augment each other...
You dont want every player to be max defense -- you need a few with Max offense to handle the mirrors that those max defenses people bring.. in fact- you really only need to stop the enemy from getting 1 star... so 5 heavy defenders on top is all any good clan needs...
Engineering accounts to be the best they can be in the game- will always be done by players who want to have the best war log.
Engineering an entire CLAN of engineered accounts - takes extreme effort... dilligence... lots of tracking and knowledge.
Many players are just like SHEEP.. they rush- without knowing why - they max without understanding the good and the bad.. they dont research...
Players who engineer their bases -- do a lot of research- and really know the game deep down... it pisses off a lot of maxers who -for various reasons - dont like that other people are not playing the game the way that THEY THINK it should be played...
AKA the maxer style accounts - can not defeat a hybrid/defenseless/minimax engineered account clan in a war... unless that maxer is insanely skilled - really lucky and the other clan messes up.
We have been up against some strong engineered clans -have lost a couple wars to them... and tied others... its just a fact of the game - you deal with it - and you learn to engineer better accounts - withhigher attack power - lower weight so you can win more wars.
Same difference. Can't war without cheating. Ever tried to attack or defend an equal base. Nah. Let's find a way around thatQuote:
Originally Posted by xclusiv
Well, we created some of those bases ourselfs, just to keep up with others. Problem solved.
Now stop whining about engineered bases and go fight a war
Most players aren't maxed out th9-11 and most clans aren't th9-11. There is a worry that those players that are below that will never get to that because they will quit due to war being no fun for them when they lose by a perfect score within the first couple hours of the war to an engineered clan. Some th9-11 players quit the game, so we do need to replace them with new players, which will be hard if they quit before getting that high.Quote:
Originally Posted by nstar612
Please don't Necro Engineering threads....There is no need...There will another along in a minute with plenty of empty seats.